Baptism without parental consent plus more

xXDankLutheranXx · Jun 4, 2018

My friend Jake's parents do not want him to be baptized and it's literally killing him. He always complaing about it to me. I don't know why, but they are absolutely opposed to it and my friend is starting to grow impatient. Jake met a Pentecostal pastor who said he would baptize him. I don't think he told the pastor his parents don't want him to be baptized though. He told me it wouldn't be disobeying his parents because it is for his spiritual well being and he is just doing what his parents have failed to do, something about their spiritual responsibility? I guess I see where Jakeis coming from with that one, as his parents would never let him get baptized, probably until he's 18. But what i am concerned about is would the baptism be valid if his parents don't know?

As a bonus, he plans on joining the Catholics after he is baptized. Would they accept it as a true or valid baptism? If they would accept it as valid he would have to take classes where he learns about the Catholic faith though and Jake's parents would shut that down too lol.

HereIStand · Jun 4, 2018

It's valid. The Catholic Church would see it as valid, as far as I know. He would need to take classes to become Catholic.

xXDankLutheranXx · Jun 4, 2018

Would it be morally ok though to bypass his non religious parents?

Paidiske · Jun 4, 2018

How old is Jake now? I would be very reluctant to baptise a minor over their parents'/guardians' objections.

xXDankLutheranXx · Jun 4, 2018

Paidiske said:
How old is Jake now? I would be very reluctant to baptise a minor over their parents'/guardians' objections.

Jake is 15. I know he would never do anything to disobey his parents in general, but he feels really strongly about this and I'm just a bystander.

PloverWing · Jun 4, 2018

If he's as old as 15, then he's old enough to be speaking for himself at his baptism; it's not like baptizing an infant without the parents' permission. I'd be hesitant to turn away a person that old who is seeking baptism.

If he intends to become Catholic, perhaps it's best if he speaks with a Catholic priest. The priest could offer counsel, and might recommend some preliminary reading that Jake could begin, as a substitute for RCIA classes which Jake presumably can't attend right now.

If it's any comfort, the Catholic church has a concept of "baptism of desire", which addresses the state of catechumens who wish to be baptized, but haven't been baptized yet.

frater_domus · Jun 4, 2018

I am a big proponent of believer's baptism, because I see it not only as a declaration of faith, but also as the same symbol of commitment as the marriage ring during marriage. That is a highly personal decision.

However, is 15 old enough? Depends on the person. I know that in Germany, the age of consent for religion matter is 14. However, I only woke up to spiritual matters in my early 20, so how about that.
Then there is the question of how his parents are with regards to him. Will they be merely annoyed if he got baptised, or will they be furious/violent/absuing or anything of the sort.

To be fair, maybe patience is order. We are not to be a stumbling block for others and we ought to obey parents whenever possible without going against God's will. Baptism is great, but I believe that it is not essential. Faith saves, not baptism. Maybe he can wait until he moves out or at least turns 18? You see, I would be inclined to believe that this is a lesson of God. It will show Jake that sometimes, patience is required and that the well-being of others at one's own expense is pleasing to God. 'Now!' is a very common attitude for youngsters, after all. And who knows, maybe he matures and finds out more things about hmself and God and decides to join a church that fits him better.

Noah Ark · Jun 4, 2018

He is still depending on his parents for living so better be obedient, they dont prohibit him from going to church n reading Bible, do they?

Albion · Jun 4, 2018

PloverWing said:
If he intends to become Catholic, perhaps it's best if he speaks with a Catholic priest. The priest could offer counsel, and might recommend some preliminary reading that Jake could begin, as a substitute for RCIA classes which Jake presumably can't attend right now.

It seems to me that he probably is planning on becoming a Catholic at a later time, when he is no longer living at home, but wants to be already baptized while he waits.

xXDankLutheranXx · Jun 4, 2018

UPDATE: He meant English Catholic, so that would make him an Anglican. What would the ANCA think about this?

Albion · Jun 4, 2018

You mean the ACNA? I don't know what that church would say exactly, but I doubt very much that it would encourage the young man to go the route he is contemplating.

xXDankLutheranXx · Jun 4, 2018

Albion said:
You mean the ACNA? I don't know what that church would say exactly, but I doubt very much that it would encourage the young man to go the route he is contemplating.

Yeah, the ACNA. Cool, I'll tell him that.

Albion · Jun 4, 2018

BTW, I am curious about this:
'Jake is 15. I know he would never do anything to disobey his parents in general, but he feels really strongly about this and I'm just a bystander.'

We are doing a lot of speculating here, but do you know WHY he feels strongly about doing something so unusual?

PloverWing · Jun 4, 2018

I'm not familiar with the term "English Catholic", except to mean people in England who are Roman Catholic. Do you know exactly what he has in mind?

As to the validity of the baptism itself, the Episcopal Church will accept as valid any baptism with water done in the Triune Name of God. Some Pentecostals do not baptize in the name of the Trinity, so that's something to check out.

The issue of his age and his parents' objections are more a pastoral issue. Ideally, I'd ask him to talk to a pastor/minister/priest who knows him and his family well, and who could explore with him the nature of the family's disagreement.

xXDankLutheranXx · Jun 4, 2018

His parents have just been opposed to religion,

Albion said:
BTW, I am curious about this:
'Jake is 15. I know he would never do anything to disobey his parents in general, but he feels really strongly about this and I'm just a bystander.'

We are doing a lot of speculating here, but do you know WHY he feels strongly about doing something so unusual?

His parents are just extremely over reacting to him wanting to be baptized and just yell. I heard it on the phone and it sounded like emotional abuse. I feel bad for him but do not know what to tell him. Jake's super devout and especially for his age it's amazing. His parents just break him down and it's hard on him. I told him to just do his best but I don't think it helps.

xXDankLutheranXx · Jun 4, 2018

English Catholic is Anglican. Traditional Anglican worship style.

PloverWing · Jun 4, 2018

I should note that I have a couple of items from my personal experience that color my perspective here. In my own story: I was raised Baptist, a tradition with believer's baptism. I made a commitment to Christ at age 6, and decided to let people know about it and be baptized when I was 7. My pastor tried to talk me out of it, thinking I was too young to know what I was doing. I persisted. I was baptized. My commitment to Christ was genuine, and I am still a Christian to this day.

In my parish: One of our active young members in my current Episcopal parish is the child of parents who are not religious. He comes to church with his grandparents, and of his own accord asked to be baptized. He spoke the words of the Baptismal Vow for himself. He continues to be active in the church as an usher and choir member.

So, every case is different, and a pastoral discussion with Jake about what's going on in his family should happen. (Given xXDankLutheranXx's most recent post, I'd recommend talking with a pastor about how to be a Christian in this difficult family situation, regardless of the baptism decision.) But my own history is why I'm sympathetic to young Christians who want to be baptized.

Albion · Jun 4, 2018

Thanks. I get that part about the parents, but I still cannot exactly figure why the response to that parental opposition would be to sneak around and possibly get baptized by a pastor of a church that has a different belief concerning baptism from the church that our friend wants to transfer to, etc. There are so many maneuvers built into this scenario, you know?

Is there anxiety on his part caused by a fear of going to hell if he should die in the near future? Or is he thinking that he isn't a real Christian without baptism? Or could it be that he aspires to attend the ACNA church now and wants to commune there?

I do not expect you to have all the answers and I certainly do not want to grill you, but you can see that this situation leaves us unsure about how to answer. And, quite possibly, the answers are just not known.

By the way, Welcome! to Christian Forums. I hope you will stay with us.

xXDankLutheranXx · Jun 4, 2018

Thanks haha. I asked him today and he told me a lot. He said he has always wanted communion and the grace of the sacraments, baptism and communion, and confession (I think the high church Anglican believe in 7 sacraments.). Jake is just conflicted and has waited so long and feels like he can't wait any more. I decided to tell him to just go for it, I see the pain this is causing him in his heart.

xXDankLutheranXx · Jun 4, 2018

And I just listed those 3 high church Anglican sacraments, I know those aren't the only ones lol.

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