Baptism, upon, and indwelling of the Holy Spirit

[visionary]

Noticeable differences....

The strength of the spirit is stronger and strengthens the body to do powerful things.
Judges 14:6
The Spirit of the Lord came powerfully upon him so that he tore the lion apart with his bare hands as he might have torn a young goat. But he told neither his father nor his mother what he had done. ... 19 Then the Spirit of the Lord came powerfully upon him. He went down to Ashkelon, struck down thirty of their men, stripped them of everything and gave their clothes to those who had explained the riddle. Burning with anger, he returned to his father’s home.

Judges 15:14
As he approached Lehi, the Philistines came toward him shouting. The Spirit of the Lord came powerfully upon him. The ropes on his arms became like charred flax, and the bindings dropped from his hands.

The Spirit of God makes you into a different person when it is upon you. You understand more of the spiritual world.
1 Samuel 10:6
The Spirit of the Lord will come powerfully upon you, and you will prophesy with them; and you will be changed into a different person. ...10 When he and his servant arrived at Gibeah, a procession of prophets met him; the Spirit of God came powerfully upon him, and he joined in their prophesying.

The descending of the Holy Spirit upon you is a powerful experience.
1 Samuel 16:13
So Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the presence of his brothers, and from that day on the Spirit of the Lord came powerfully upon David. Samuel then went to Ramah.

Matthew 12:28
But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

 

[visionary]

Yeshua only had the Holy Spirit descend upon Him.

Matthew 3:16
As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him.

Mark 1:10
Just as Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove.

Luke 3:22
and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”

 

[Heber Book List]

Yeshua only had the Holy Spirit descend upon Him.

Matthew 3:16
As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him.

Mark 1:10
Just as Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove.

Luke 3:22
and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”

How do you work that out? The Spirit descended on the disciples in the upper room, did he not. and was represented as tongues of flames on each one. It might have been a mess if 120 doves were in the room, one on each person's head! G_d is wise to these little logistic problems!

BTW Yeshua was not 'baptised'- that is a Church thing that was not around at that time. I believe John was immersing people and, in so doing, was convicting them of the sin of having given up on G_d's word and were no longer living straight lives for G_d, because he had been 'absent' for up to 400 years. Isaiah predicted this would happen when he said "'The voice of one crying: in the desert [of your soul], make a straight road for the Lord...". When placed in the gospels the punctation for this verse is altered to make it appear as some sort of validation of John, that he was the voice crying in the desert, and so the true meaning was lost. It wasn't about literally making straight roads for G_d - he is quite caable of doing that himself, it was a call back to turn back to G_d from their crooked and perverse ways.

 

[FIRESTORM314]

BTW Yeshua was not 'baptised'- that is a Church thing that was not around at that time. I believe John was immersing people and, in so doing, was convicting them of the sin of having given up on G_d's word and were no longer living straight lives for G_d, because he had been 'absent' for up to 400 years. Isaiah predicted this would happen when he said "'The voice of one crying: in the desert [of your soul], make a straight road for the Lord...". When placed in the gospels the punctation for this verse is altered to make it appear as some sort of validation of John, that he was the voice crying in the desert, and so the true meaning was lost. It wasn't about literally making straight roads for G_d - he is quite caable of doing that himself, it was a call back to turn back to G_d from their crooked and perverse ways.

Well check out 2 Kings 5 and the healing of Naaman.

Leprosy was symbolic of Sin and Naaman dipping himself in the Jordan SEVEN times is, I would say symbolic of being immersed in the Spirit of God. If John the Baptist was looking for inspiration for his ministry and knowledge that Jesus would Baptize with the Holy Spirit - this is the scripture that may have led him to that conclusion.

 

[FIRESTORM314]

Yeshua only had the Holy Spirit descend upon Him.

Matthew 3:16
As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him.

Mark 1:10
Just as Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove.

Luke 3:22
and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”

I can't help notice that you highlight DESCEND here - what is the purpose behind that?

 

[Heber Book List]

Well check out 2 Kings 5 and the healing of Naaman.

Leprosy was symbolic of Sin and Naaman dipping himself in the Jordan SEVEN times is, I would say symbolic of being immersed in the Spirit of God. If John the Baptist was looking for inspiration for his ministry and knowledge that Jesus would Baptize with the Holy Spirit - this is the scripture that may have led him to that conclusion.

Confusing response I have no idea how that relates to what I wrote. That the Spirit was alive and well in the Tanach is not a problem, so I do not see where your Tanach quotes fit in to anything I said.

 

[FIRESTORM314]

Confusing response I have no idea how that relates to what I wrote. That the Spirit was alive and well in the Tanach is not a problem, so I do not see where your Tanach quotes fit in to anything I said.

Sorry - I was half asleep
I mis-read what you posted.

Am I allowed to post in this section MJ

 

[Heber Book List]

Sorry - I was half asleep
I mis-read what you posted.

Am I allowed to post in this section MJ

Hi there, no problem.
You may post in MJ but non MJ may ask questions but may not debate or teach on these MJ fora. Do have a look at the stickies at the top of the MJ home page and go to the thread about signing in and then follow what it says and you will see the options open to you.

 

[visionary]

How do you work that out? The Spirit descended on the disciples in the upper room, did he not. and was represented as tongues of flames on each one. It might have been a mess if 120 doves were in the room, one on each person's head! G_d is wise to these little logistic problems!

BTW Yeshua was not 'baptised'- that is a Church thing that was not around at that time. I believe John was immersing people and, in so doing, was convicting them of the sin of having given up on G_d's word and were no longer living straight lives for G_d, because he had been 'absent' for up to 400 years. Isaiah predicted this would happen when he said "'The voice of one crying: in the desert [of your soul], make a straight road for the Lord...". When placed in the gospels the punctation for this verse is altered to make it appear as some sort of validation of John, that he was the voice crying in the desert, and so the true meaning was lost. It wasn't about literally making straight roads for G_d - he is quite caable of doing that himself, it was a call back to turn back to G_d from their crooked and perverse ways.

Yep, another form of the Holy Spirit besides the "dove" with "tongues of flames" descending on the disciples.

 

[visionary]

I can't help notice that you highlight DESCEND here - what is the purpose behind that?

Where it comes from is important... descending from God.

 

[visionary]

In another thread there was a comment about the difference between "upon" and "indwelling" so I looked for indwelling and didn't find it. So far, they have all been "upon".

 

[AbbaLove]

In another thread there was a comment about the difference between "upon" and "indwelling" so I looked for indwelling and didn't find it. So far, they have all been "upon".

It's like asking, Why is it that the word trust is used in the Tanakh; whereas, faith is used in the Brit Hadashah (NT)?

It's like asking why is filled used instead of upon in Acts 2:4? One would surmise that at least a few translations would read upon ... When the Spirit of God came upon them they began to speak in different languages, as the Spirit gave them utterance ... however, no such translation(s) exist for Acts 2:4 that reads upon instead of filled.

Acts 2:4
They were all filled with Ruach HaKodesh and began to talk in different languages, as the Spirit enabled them to speak.​

The descending of the Holy Spirit upon you is a powerful experience.
Matthew 12:28
But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

Not even one translation of Luke 17:21 exists that reads upon you?
Luke 17:21 - Bible Gateway​

Luke 17:21 KJV
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Luke 17:21 AMPC
Nor will people say, Look! Here [it is]! or, See, [it is] there! For behold, the kingdom of God is within you [in your hearts] and among you [surrounding you].
Luke 17:21 YLT
nor shall they say, Lo, here; or lo, there; for lo, the reign of God is within you.​

Certainly you aren't implying that when the Spirit of God is upon one of His anointed they become more powerful (with His Spirit) than when the indwelling of the Spirit of God is within one of His anointed?

 

[visionary]

​

It's like asking, Why is it that the word trust is used in the Tanakh; whereas, faith is used in the Brit Hadashah (NT)?

It's like asking why is filled used instead of upon in Acts 2:4? One would surmise that at least a few translations would read upon ... When the Spirit of God came upon them they began to speak in different languages, as the Spirit gave them utterance ... however, no such translation(s) exist for Acts 2:4 that reads upon instead of filled.

Acts 2:4
They were all filled with Ruach HaKodesh and began to talk in different languages, as the Spirit enabled them to speak.​

​

Not even one translation of Luke 17:21 exists that reads upon you?
Luke 17:21 - Bible Gateway​

Luke 17:21 KJV
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Luke 17:21 AMPC
Nor will people say, Look! Here [it is]! or, See, [it is] there! For behold, the kingdom of God is within you [in your hearts] and among you [surrounding you].
Luke 17:21 YLT
nor shall they say, Lo, here; or lo, there; for lo, the reign of God is within you.​

Certainly you aren't implying that when the Spirit of God is upon one of His anointed they become more powerful (with His Spirit) than when the indwelling of the Spirit of God is within one of His anointed?

Thank you... and you made a good point about the differences between upon and indwelling/within. "Upon" to me is like a rain shower, it comes and it goes, and while it is there it waters for things to grow. "Within" implies a more constant state or standard, having a longer lasting effect upon the soul. Do you think those who have the "within" can keep it, lose it, or have it wax or recharge as in revival?

 

[AbbaLove]

"Within" implies a more constant state or standard, having a longer lasting effect upon the soul. Do you think those who have the "within" can keep it, lose it, or have it wax or recharge as in revival?

When Jonah first disobeyed God was it not the Spirit of God that still came upon Jonah when he repented and went on to preach repentance to the people of Ninevah in 760 BC? However, in 612 BC Ninevah was sacked and plundered by the armies of the King of Medes and the King of Akkad. This was in fulfillment of Nahum’s prophesy that God would completely destroy the city ... suggesting that Ninevah returned once again to idol goddess worship.

Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
1 Corinthians 6:19
Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?
Hebrews 10:29
How much more severely do you think one deserves to be punished who has trampled on the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant that sanctified Him, and insulted the Spirit of grace?​

Perhaps, if Jonah would have first obeyed God then the once great city of Ninevah (capital of the Neo-Assyrian Empire) wouldn't have been so thoroughly destroyed. It would not be until the 1800s that archaeologists would excavate buried portions of the ancient city. Nineveh had indeed been “hidden,” as Nahum predicted long ago (Nahum 3:1-19).

The remains of ancient Nineveh, the mound-ruins of Kouyunjik and Nabī Yūnus, are located on a level part of the plain near the junction of the Tigris and the Khosr Rivers within an area of 750 hectares (1,900 acres) circumscribed by a 12-kilometre (7.5 mi) brick rampart. This whole extensive space is now one immense area of ruins overlaid in parts by new suburbs of the city of Mosul, Iraq.

 

[Heber Book List]

Thank you... and you made a good point about the differences between upon and indwelling/within. "Upon" to me is like a rain shower, it comes and it goes, and while it is there it waters for things to grow. "Within" implies a more constant state or standard, having a longer lasting effect upon the soul. Do you think those who have the "within" can keep it, lose it, or have it wax or recharge as in revival?

Paul says we need to be filled time and time again with the Spirit (Eph. 5:18). One assumes from this that, like a car battery, we need our inner possession of the Holy Spirit to be topped up as we go through life, as the alternator tops up our car battery for the next part of the journey.

Or, to mix my metaphors, this constant infilling of the Holy Spirit is like having a regular upgrade on a computer.

In both cases, without this topping up, we grind to halt, spiritually. It also suggests a choice has to be made - to be filled, or not to be filled.

 

[visionary]

Paul says we need to be filled time and time again with the Spirit (Eph. 5:18). One assumes from this that, like a car battery, we need our inner possession of the Holy Spirit to be topped up as we go through life, as the alternator tops up our car battery for the next part of the journey.

Or, to mix my metaphors, this constant infilling of the Holy Spirit is like having a regular upgrade on a computer.

In both cases, without this topping up, we grind to halt, spiritually. It also suggests a choice has to be made - to be filled, or not to be filled.

Overflowing comes to mine. My cup runneth over... Water baptism is total immersion... Spiritual immersion is a Holy Spirit baptism experience.... It is not a one time thing... As it was pointed out Yeshua breathed on the disciples and then later they were baptised in the Spirit. One was just a foretaste of the immersion... as the first one was not enough to embolden them into action.

Acts 1:8 makes this connection clear. "You shall receive power after the Holy Spirit comes on you, and you shall be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."

 

[visionary]

David said Ps 51:11 Take not your Holy Spirit from me?" Was he baptized [upon or within] in the spirit? and can he lose it as he is indicating with this question?

 

[visionary]

Ephesians 5:18 ... be filled with the Spirit;
You can't do that unless you repent
Acts 2:38 Repent and be baptized, every one of you, for the forgiveness of sins. And you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit

 

[Heber Book List]

David said Ps 51:11 Take not your Holy Spirit from me?" Was he baptized [upon or within] in the spirit? and can he lose it as he is indicating with this question?

He asks G_d to create in him a steadfast Spirit vs 12. In vs 13 It shows how David understood G_d in David's predicament, rather than making a theological statement. Vs 9-13 are, effectively, saying 'do not take my life', as in the preceding verse in which David asks G_d not to ban him from his presence by taking his life because of his great sin.

 

[Heber Book List]

Ephesians 5:18 ... be filled with the Spirit;
You can't do that unless you repent
Acts 2:38 Repent and be baptized, every one of you, for the forgiveness of sins. And you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit

Yep, as reflected in post #19