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One is baptized into the body of Christ but there are many baptisms in scripture. John's baptism or baptism of the washing of sins and repentance was the first of the NT. The cross was a baptism or the baptism of blood, martyrdom. Baptism of desire, such as the thief. Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
means many things, such as as "to overwhelm", which is why Jesus made it a point in Acts 1:5 to distinguish between two baptisms.
What does baptism mean to you? Is it just an outward sign or does it go deeper into the spirit?
It's not just Catholic.
Baptism of John vs the baptism of the Holy Spirit:
Is it our place to say who is saved and who is not? What we can say is that Paul sure believed that it was important to baptize the believers that he spoke to in the verses from Acts 19 which I gave you earlier in this post. If baptism were not a necessity, why did he bother?
Why did they bother? We see no instance where the Apostles denied the importance of baptism.
What is your definition of faith? Doing things as you want or doing them as the Apostles taught? Anyone can say that they believe and have faith, but that doesn't mean that they faith which saves.
I told in the other post. The baptism of desire. He recognized Jesus' innocence.
It was a confession of faith but Jesus did not say that it saved him.
I know only that they received the Holy Spirit and Peter saw the necessity to baptize them. Do you believe that you know better than Peter?
Peter does not contradict any of scripture, you ignore scripture. It is a grave mistake to think that all verses stand alone and one can pick and choose without regard to what else is written. Scripture shows the need for baptism. When one believes, they believe all.
Baptism is not a work which Paul was referring to. The Mosaic law is about working for justification. Paul condemns those works and the only works which matter are the works of Jesus Christ but that doesn't mean that we are not to work. If you read the next verse in Eph. 2 Paul makes it clear.
Roman 6- There's no evidence to say that Paul is speaking about water baptism. The Greek word for baptism (baptizō
in the text, and noticed I was going by the TR here, so I looked and yes, in other variants of the text there is a second "you", the Alexandrian text type has "ἄφεσιν τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν ὑμῶν καὶ λήμψεσθε" whereas the TR/Byzantine text type does not include this second use of ὑμῶν.Except that the text speaks of the new birth as being of "water and spirit". If "water" means natural birth, i.e. amniotic fluid, then what Jesus is effectively saying is one must be born naturally in order to be born again/from above. That seems a bit silly to me. Non-existent people don't need to be born again, because they don't exist yet, the only people that need to be born again are those that exist, so telling someone they have to be born to be born again is redundant to the point of the absurd.
Water may mean something else, I've heard arguments that says water is symbolic of repentance or the like, but the amniotic fluid argument is, in my humble opinion, completely absurd.
However, as it so happens, the baptismal interpretation of John 3:5 is the unanimous position which Christians have taken since antiquity, which may not mean anything to some people; but it means a lot to me.
And, of course, the "baptism with the Holy Spirit and with fire" almost certainly refers to the historic event(s) associated with Pentecost. I think if one is going to argue that "baptism" must mean some special other sort of baptism then one needs to demonstrate this. A first century Greek-speaking group of people, Jewish or Gentile, is almost certainly going to understand the concept of "baptism" as involving water unless defined otherwise. If I say I'm going to take a bath, it probably means I'm going to get wet unless there is some sufficient cause or reason by way of context to know I'm speaking metaphorically or something else. If I said, "I want to bathe in light" you'd instantly recognize the metaphorical use of 'bathe" but if I just say, "I'm going to go bathe" we can probably assume it means I'm going to get wet.
In order to demonstrate that Paul doesn't mean "water baptism" in Romans 6 that will require some sort of demonstration that "baptism" doesn't in its normative sense mean getting wet.
Πέτρος δὲ ἔφη πρὸς αὐτούς Μετανοήσατε καὶ βαπτισθήτω ἕκαστος ὑμῶν ἐπὶ τῷ ὀνόματι Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ εἰς ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν καὶ λήψεσθε τὴν δωρεὰν τοῦ ἁγίου πνεύματος
Peter then said to these repent and be-baptized each of you (genitive case) by the name Jesus Christ for release [of] sins and receive the gift of Holy Spirit
I noted that there was only case of "you" (ὑμῶν
Though what I'm noticing is that even going by the Alexandrian text type, the word is in the same case both times. It's ὑμῶν both times (the dative case is used in the following verse, ὑμῖν indicating the possession of the promise, i.e. "promise is for you").
The genitive case, would be "your baptism and repentance" and "your sins" in either event that is what this baptism which is to "every/each your", for the purpose of releasing/forgiving/remitting their (the ones being baptized and repenting) sin. And, as Peter follows it up, "this is for you and to your children and to all who are far off", it's for everyone.
For Lutherans what differentiates baptism from an ordinary bath of water is the fact that the word of God is present in it. It's "water and the word", that word is the promises God has attached to Baptism, it's the Gospel promises of "this baptism which saves you" etc, it's also Christ Himself. It's that word which gives us faith "faith comes from hearing, [etc]".
It's definitely a Lutheran interpretation, but for Lutherans that is very important. We don't believe water accomplishes anything, but water attached to God's word makes it Baptism--which is why we can say that the same gracious word Christ spoke to the thief on the cross which freed him from sin and promise to rest in paradise is the same gracious word which Christ speaks to us in and through Baptism.
You're separating faith and Baptism, the two aren't separated. The two are mutually inclusive, they are united together by the gracious activity of God. As a Lutheran there is no contradiction, to be baptized is to believe, because faith is God's gift to us, created in us by the word of Christ.
Except faith isn't a work. If faith is a work then Paul contradicts himself. There are no works which can justify us or improve our state before God, it is entirely the gracious activity of God that justifies and sets us right with Him which He does freely. The faith through which we are justified is a gift, it comes from God, not ourselves "so that none may boast".
It would require an extreme eisegesis to get to that position, since the author is first offering the flood (which last I checked was quite wet) as analogous/a type of baptism. The issue of water, thus, is essential to the point made; but Peter makes it clear that it's not a matter of removing dirt from the body (it's not a bath), but there is something deeper going on. Saying it's not about normative baptism is, in my frank opinion, a total butchery of the plain statement of the text.
Our baptism is a circumcision without hands. That doesn't mean it's some form of invisible baptism which has zero basis in the text of Holy Scripture.
I think you're struggling with the idea that salvation has to be some strict formula. You must do "X, Y and Z" to be saved--even though you're saying "have faith in Christ's Gospel" that's still a certain thing that must be done in order to accomplish the whole salvation thing. From a Lutheran perspective even that is works, even that is salvation by our own merit rather than relying entirely on the grace of God.
For a Lutheran, Baptism isn't something we do, it's something God does. God saves us in Baptism. Why? Because He has promised to do so, and God keeps His promises. It's not about meriting anything, but about being a passive receiver of God's good things, God doesn't hand us a gift waiting for us to take it, He just gives us the gift and says, "It is yours, I love you"; and this is what Baptism is.
It's not "You must be baptized in order to be saved, there is this one thing you must do" because that's not it. There is nothing we can do, it's all God's thing. Even the faith to believe comes from God apart from ourselves and our will and our strength and our sinfulness.
So we confess that here, in Baptism, is what God has promised. God saves us in Baptism, that's true because God has promised it.think you're struggling with the idea that salvation has to be some strict formula. You must do "X, Y and Z" to be saved--even though you're saying "have faith in Christ's Gospel" that's still a certain thing that must be done in order to accomplish the whole salvation thing.. So if God saves those who are unable to be baptized, He can and has and does (such as the thief on the cross) because He's God and He loves us and is unwilling that any should perish.
That's because God's grace is big, really big, so we let it be big. If God saves someone outside of Baptism, then glory be to God. However to say God does not save people in the very means He says He does (Baptism) where is the grace in this? So God has said He saves us in Baptism so glory be to God, and God can and will save whomever He will even outside of Baptism and so glory be to God. But we shouldn't devalue the promises and word of God by devaluing His means, including Holy Baptism. Because Baptism remains Baptism regardless of what we think of it.
Christ is in our Baptism. When we are baptized we are baptized into Christ. You can no more separate Baptism from Christ then you can separate heat from fire.
-CryptoLutheran
Why do you consider baptism a work, such as our good works. Baptism is a work of God, not man.
Might be best to deal with some of your specific questions, so I apologize if your post has been cut up as I address it.
If Baptism is available, why wouldn't someone who says they believe Christ avoid it? That's a more significant question I think. But no, I don't believe God's graciousness is rigid, it's vast and flexible and goes into and fits into all the nooks and crannies of our lives to reach us.
Not equating. But Christ is in our Baptism, we are clothed with Christ,
"For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ." - Galatians 3:27
When we went into the water we are baptized into Jesus Christ and clothed with Him and His righteousness, dying to sin and dying with Jesus and then rising together with Him into new life, thus being new creations in Christ. So we can't separate Baptism from Christ because He's the One in our Baptism, the one clothing us, making us new, drowning us to the world and raising us to new life.
See my above comments, I'm not saying Baptism=Christ, I'm saying Christ is in Baptism, He's the One we are being baptized into.
Baptism always means with water unless qualified otherwise, such as "Baptism with the Holy Spirit and with fire" which refers to what happened on Pentecost and in Cornelius' house as fulfillment of Joel's prophecy that God would pour out His Spirit upon all flesh.
Baptism is for everyone, as St. Peter said, the promise is "for you and your children and to all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call", that God can, has and may save outside of Baptism doesn't negate what Baptism is for and what God has promised to do in Baptism.
Again, not the same, but cannot be separated from. One cannot separate Baptism from Christ, but Christ can be found outside of Baptism. Christ is free to be wherever He wants to be, saving, justifying, changing lives and healing the broken places of the world, because He's Lord, He's Savior, He's our God and King. But one place He has promised explicitly to be is in Baptism, He is always there, available, freely, graciously, for us sinners. I can find food in lots of places, but one place I can always find food is the supermarket, because that's the purpose of a supermarket; likewise Christ can be found wherever He will be found because He's good and kind to all, but He is always found in His Word and Sacraments, in Baptism.
No problemo.
-CryptoLutheran
