Baptism Question

[St_Worm2]

... if I died tomorrow and I have not been baptized, what will happen to me? Am I still saved?

If God saved you and you died prior to getting water baptized, YES, you are still saved. Salvation is by grace through faith in Christ, APART from works of any kind! (Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5; Romans 10:9-10; John 5:24).

If you live on however, be sure to be baptized.

Yours and His,
David

 

[Bible2]

Lee52 said:

New Christians will not benefit from your many words.

Note that it hasn't been proven that they won't benefit from what's been said, for it's based on what the Bible itself shows.

Also, regarding "many words", note that even the entire book of Hebrews should be considered as being only a "few words" (Hebrews 13:22). And even though the Bible as a whole is almost a million words, Christians should still read every word of the Bible (Matthew 4:4), for they can benefit from every word of it (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

Lee52 said:

You eisegete Scripture and use LOTS of words, saying the same thing over and over again in rephrased sentences and multiple Scriptural references that seem to indicate what you say as truth.

Note that it hasn't been proven that there's been any eisegesis. And regarding "saying the same thing over and over", note that it's a good thing for Christians to continually present the same truths of the Bible (2 Timothy 4:2, Philippians 3:1b), even when some people are unwilling to accept those truths (2 Timothy 4:3-4, Galatians 1:10).

Lee52 said:

Yet, there are no Christian denominations that I am aware of that teach your version of salvation in Christ and initial and ultimate salvation.

Note that there shouldn't be any denominations (1 Corinthians 1:12-13, 1 Corinthians 3:4), only "Christians" (Acts 11:26b, 1 Peter 4:16).

Regarding initial and ultimate salvation, note again that it's the Bible itself which shows the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation: Initial salvation is by faith without works (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Romans 4:1-5), whereas ultimate salvation is by both faith and works of faith (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Philippians 2:12b, 2 Corinthians 5:9, 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14, Hebrews 5:9, Revelation 22:14).

Also, in the Bible itself, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is the salvation that Christians have now (Ephesians 2:5) in their mortal physical bodies, whereas ultimate salvation is that salvation which is ready to be revealed in the last time (1 Peter 1:5) and is always drawing nearer (Romans 13:11b), that salvation which Christians are still hoping for (1 Thessalonians 5:8b, Romans 8:23-25) and which Jesus Christ will bring to obedient Christians at his second coming (Hebrews 9:28, Hebrews 5:9), when he will resurrect or change their mortal physical bodies into immortal physical bodies (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16) just like the immortal physical body he obtained at his resurrection (Philippians 3:20-21, Luke 24:39, 1 John 3:2, Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:11-14).

Lee52 said:

Your conversation is much better suited among those of us that have been saved by grace for several years and are graduates of evangelical, fundamental, Christian colleges and universities.

Note that a Christian doesn't need to go to college (cf. Acts 4:13, 1 Corinthians 1:26-28) to understand what the Bible shows (Luke 24:45), for God is more than able to teach even children everything that the Bible shows (2 Timothy 3:15-16, 1 John 2:14b,27).

Lee52 said:

You came into this forum thread for new Christians with meat and potatoes discussions instead of milk and honey.

Note that the Biblical teaching on baptism is milk, not meat (Hebrews 5:12-6:2).

Lee52 said:

If I were so inclined, in a different forum on theological discussions, I would engage you on what you are saying here, one at a time, individually, to keep the discussion simple. As I said above, you are too verbose for a "new Christian" thread and much to complex in what and how you present it. New Christians are not equiped to understand and you know it.

Note that it hasn't been proven that what's been said is too verbose or complicated for a new Christian to understand. All he needs to do is take his time (months, if necessary) in going over all that's been said, by focusing on just one sentence at a time and making sure to read the referenced verses in his Bible. God will take care of the rest (Luke 24:45).

 

[Terene]

If God saved you and you died prior to getting water baptized, YES, you are still saved. Salvation is by grace through faith in Christ, APART from works of any kind! (Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5; Romans 10:9-10; John 5:24).

If you live on however, be sure to be baptized.

Yours and His,
David

Dear brother David, the other brother is right that baptism is a work of obedience, NECESSARY for a believer to obtain entrance into God's Kingdom which is where all saved saints will go. Mark what the Lord Himself said:

I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. (John 3:5)

It is very dangerous to teach others to disobey this command of Jesus Christ and cause a weak brother to stumble and even lose his salvation because we taught a wrong doctrine that is not of God. What punishment will we face for teaching error and causing one saved by Christ to ultimately perish because of false doctrines!

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Dear brother David, the other brother is right that baptism is a work of obedience, NECESSARY for a believer to obtain entrance into God's Kingdom which is where all saved saints will go. Mark what the Lord Himself said:

I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. (John 3:5)

It is very dangerous to teach others to disobey this command of Jesus Christ and cause a weak brother to stumble and even lose his salvation because we taught a wrong doctrine that is not of God. What punishment will we face for teaching error and causing one saved by Christ to ultimately perish because of false doctrines!

It is so terrible that Christians who claim to follow the bible would read the bible, read Mark 16 and many other passages that endorse water baptism and shows its necessity, and tell others not to bother with it. So sad!

 

[Harry3142]

Note that more than just "one or two" scriptures have been referenced which show baptism to be a requirement for ultimate salvation, and that it hasn't been proven that any scripture has been referenced contrary to its context.

In order to be saved ultimately, believers must get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus Christ's death for our sins (Mark 16:16, 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16).

Why are you referencing Mark 16:16? We all known that the Gospel of St. Mark ends at 16:8, with every verse from 16:9 onwards being added to the text years, or even centuries, later in order to 'fill it out'.

 

[kimmyh51]

God says that to be saved, one must believe in their heart and confess with their mouth that Jesus is who He says He is.

Baptism is an act of obedience that we are to do after we are saved. we really shouldn't waste time doing this, but it's not going to get us sent to hell if we don't rush to the nearest baptismal. water baptism is an outward profession of the inward change that occurred when Christ washed away our sins (when we got saved.)

there is a different baptism though, that is required for salvation. this is the baptism of the Spirit. and no, i don't mean speaking in tongues. Jesus and the apostles spoke of the baptism of the spirit throughout the new testament. to my understanding, baptism of the spirit coincides with the moment we are saved.

if water baptism were required, then that would mean there really wasn't sufficient grace. it would also mean that Jesus lied when he told the thief on the cross that he would be with him that day in heaven. it would also mean that countless people who accepted Christ at a time in their lives when they were unable to go get baptized really were going to hell despite having given their life to Jesus.

you're going to here conflicting opinions on this subject, and in fact you already have. don't listen to us. listen to God. pray. ask Him to assure you of your salvation.

and when you get a chance, be obedient and get baptized in water, and make that public profession of your faith.

Thats my understanding of baptism too - and pretty much what my pastor said when I asked about it. I believe that if you died tomorrow you would be going to heaven. I am a new christian too and not baptised yet, and I know that god is with me, and working on me, and I am sure that if i dropped dead before I was baptised i would be going to heaven.

If you ask me, gods intention with baptism is also actually to give us more blessings. I just dont feel like he is a 'legalist' who will send us to hell if we are truly are christians over a technicality like not getting baptised prior to being hit by a bus....
However it is a commandment that we are to be baptised, so while I dont think god is going to condemn us for not having done it fast enough - if we were deliberately not wanting to get baptised - ever, then I guess maybe he might take that one up with us.
My church had a baptism service about 6-8 weeks after I joined, which I thought about getting baptised in, however as my family dont live in my city and I wanted to or felt it would mean more for me as an act of obedience, if I was making that 'out loud' profession of my faith in front of my family (who are mostly non christian and consider christians to be "bible bashers" etc) than just my church who obviously support my decision.
I am hoping to arrange a way to get some of my family to my city over the next 2-4 months and be baptised with them present.

So anyway - I think you should plan to be baptised as soon as possible, unless there is some reason why you want to wait a bit more (maybe like mine). I at first thought oh i dont know if I should get baptised so fast im a new christian im probably not really christian enough tyet (thinking baptism was some sort of statement I would be making about how righteous and christian i was - till I heard that it is a commandment to all christians.

Are you planning on getting baptised as soon as it is practical to do so (ie when your church next has a baptisimal service etc?)

Actually I wonder if there are baptism stories here somewhere - I would like to know what it was like for people who have done it, and if they can recommend any preparation etc to make sure its as special as it can be when it happens?

 

[Harry3142]

(WDGL)-

Here's what I have personally witnessed in a church that insisted that salvation demanded baptism by immersion:

1. The person was to be baptized by immersion.

2. The person was to accept that God (including Jesus Christ himself) would condemn them for any act of disobedience.

3. The person was to recognize the leadership of that church as the present voice of God himself.

4. The person was to accept those Scripture pasages that the church leadership stated now applied to them, while rejecting those passages that the church leadership taught as no longer applying to them (the specific passage I heard as not applying to true Christiains anymore was Matthew 25:31-46).

5. The person was to accept a literal 6-day creation. In spite of science, the world was to be seen as only 6,000 years old.

6. The person was to see The Tower of Babal as a literal event.

7. The person was to see The Great Flood as a literal event.

8. The person was to accept that all Africans are the descendants of Ham.

9. The person was to accept the curse of Ham by Noah (Genesis 9:18-29) as applying to all Africans living today.

10. The person was to accept that the taking of the life of a civil-rights worker was 'slaying the wicked', and so was not only acceptable to God, but also demanded by him (I sat in the congregation the Sunday after the 3 bodies of the murdered civil-rights workers were found in Mississippi and heard the minister proclaim im his sermon that their deaths were to be seen as 'slaying the wicked' if we were truly Christians).

So you see now why I have cautioned you. The old saying, "Just because a mouse lives in a cookie jar doesn't make it a cookie," applies here.

There are three passages that I recognize as the 'litmus test' for whether a person is entering a church. If the church you are interested in accepts these passages you can be assured that you are in a church that endeavors to do as God wants of us. If any church rejects any of these three passages, tries to 'dance around' what they obviously are saying, or tells you that there are other passages that are more important than these, so they must be put on the shelf until some 'future time' (which they will see to it never arrives), leave that church immediately:

A. Romans 3:19 to 5:10. Our sole means of obtaining salvation is to accept it as a free gift from God himself. The righteousness which God demands of all who would enter his presence is a righteousness we can never attain by our own efforts. Instead, we must have faith that God will confer his own righteousness upon us as a result of our accepting Jesus Christ as our Lord and savior. That is the only righteousness acceptable to him (this is also restated in Romans 10:5-13).

B. Galatians 5:16-26. We must have the proper mindset. The 'fruit' of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control must dictate what we say and what we do if it is to truly conform to what God wants of us. 'The acts of the sinful nature', even if cloaked in pietism (such as saying that we are to hate all muslims, jews, or homosexuals), are to be seen as contrary to all that God wants of us, and so those acts are to be shunned.

C. Matthew 25:31-46. Christ himself taught us that we are to be compassionate even as he was conpassionate. He rolled up his sleeves and went to work alleviating the suffering he saw around him. If we are truly his disciples the compassion that he had for those around him will also manifest itself through us and our actions toward those around us. If we see suffering and need and we have the means whereby we can alleviate that suffering and need, then we as Christians are duty-bound to do so.

I have seen two different tactics used by churches as an attempt to nullify the passage in Matthew. One was the decision by the church leadership where I attended in the 1960's that Matthew 25:31-46 was now to be seen as the responsibility of the state, and therefore no Christians were to participate in it. The other is the statement that some churches utter that they 'believe in' that passage. Jesus didn't teach that we were to 'believe in' feeding the hungry, etc. He taught that we were to take an active role in getting the job done. They are not the same thing,

I hopw this helps you more sensibly decide where you will find your church home. God bless-

 

[Bible2]

Harry3142 said:

Why are you referencing Mark 16:16?

Because it's the Word of God.

Harry3142 said:

We all known that the Gospel of St. Mark ends at 16:8, with every verse from 16:9 onwards being added to the text years, or even centuries, later in order to 'fill it out'.

Note that that has never been proven. It has never been proven that the Textus Receptus book of Mark wasn't descended from a now-lost manuscript even older than the oldest not-lost manuscripts, which could have been descended from a damaged, end-truncated manuscript.

Also, note that there's no Biblical reason to reject anything in Mark 16:9-20, for nothing in it has ever been proven wrong doctrinally; nothing in it has ever been proven to be not in line with the rest of the Bible.

Also, note that Mark 16:16 shows the same thing as many other scriptures: that baptism is necessary in order to obtain ultimate salvation: 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-11, Galatians 3:27, Colossians 2:12, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16.

 

[St_Worm2]

What punishment will we face for teaching error and causing one saved by Christ to ultimately perish because of false doctrines!

It is very dangerous to teach others to disobey this command of Jesus Christ ...

It is so terrible that Christians who claim to follow the bible would read the bible, read Mark 16 and many other passages that endorse water baptism and shows its necessity, and tell others not to bother with it. So sad!

Hi Terene, I find it fascinating to read your words, especially considering your apparent high regard for the doctrine of Eternal Security. The truth is, no doctrine, true or false, is going to cause someone to be snatched out of the hand of their Savior (John 10:28), or they were NEVER one of His sheep to begin with (John 10:26-28).

That said, I do agree with you that teaching God's Word is something that none of us should take lightly and I appreciate the reminder to be careful ..

Finally (and in light of that last thought), in which part of my post are you saying that I'm teaching readers to disobey Christ's commands concerning baptism? WDGL in the OP told us he's a new Christian who has not yet been baptized. He was worried that if he died tomorrow before being able to be baptized, that he might lose his salvation. Where are you saying that I've told him not to be baptized? Did I not, in fact, tell him to do just the opposite?

There is certainly much more to talk about (how to properly exegete John 3:5 might be good place to start), but this is not a debate board. You seem to favor a doctrine of some sort of 'double salvation', not unlike Bible2 and his "initial" and "ultimate" versions of salvation, so why not jump over into Soteriology and join the discussion(s) there?

Yours and His,
David
p.s. - PROPHECYKID, I don't know any who would tell a Christian "not to bother" getting baptized (unless they'd already been baptized, of course). Certainly no one in this thread has said or even insinuated anything of the sort!

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Hi Terene, I find it fascinating to read your words, especially considering your apparent high regard for the doctrine of Eternal Security. The truth is, no doctrine, true or false, is going to cause someone to be snatched out of the hand of their Savior (John 10:28), or they were NEVER one of His sheep to begin with (John 10:26-28).

That said, I do agree with you that teaching God's Word is something that none of us should take lightly and I appreciate the reminder to be careful ..

Finally (and in light of that last thought), in which part of my post are you saying that I'm teaching readers to disobey Christ's commands concerning baptism? WDGL in the OP told us he's a new Christian who has not yet been baptized. He was worried that if he died tomorrow before being able to be baptized, that he might lose his salvation. Where are you saying that I've told him not to be baptized? Do I not, in fact, tell him to do just the opposite?

There is certainly much more to talk about (how to properly exegete John 3:5 might be good place to start), but this is not a debate board. You seem to favor a doctrine of some sort of 'double salvation', not unlike Bible2 and his "initial" and "ultimate" versions of salvation, so why not jump over into Soteriology and join the discussion(s) there?

Yours and His,
David
p.s. - PROPHECYKID, I don't know any who would tell a Christian "not to bother" getting baptized (unless they'd already been baptized, of course). Certainly no one in this thread has said or even insinuated anything of the sort!

I have been here on CF for a long time, and have been in many threads like these. I was not speaking of this thread specifically but making a general statement of what is usually said in threads like these.

 

[SharonL]

When Jesus ascended into Heaven, he left us with just two commandments -

Have no other God's before me.

Love your neighbor as yourself.

Those two things covers it all - Man has injected all the 'do's and don'ts' - yes Jesus tells us to be baptised, but it does not say you are not saved without it. If we can just cut away from all the manmade rules and laws and look at what Jesus left us with, life would be so simple. All the manmade judging has made life very difficult for new Christians.

God has really dealt with me on all the manmade rules in the churches - my thinking centers only on what the Holy Spirit leads me to do, not what man says to do - I keep my thoughts on Jesus and all I want to do is obey the leading of the Holy Spirit and be the witness and servant of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

 

[Lee52]

I am going to take the rest of this discussion over to the threads that David started to continue THIS discussion.

I will leave this thread to new Christians with this thought: What did Jesus say to the woman "caught in the very act" of adultery?

Did Jesus tell her to go get baptized, or did he just tell her to go and sin no more?

In other situations where Jesus forgave people's sins, did He just forgive them of their sins, or did he tell them to go and be baptized before their sins were forgiven?

Note: David and I have never once said to NOT get baptized by immersion. We have all said that it is necessary as an outward sign of an inward change. AND, it is not necessary for salvation to "stick" prior to getting dunked. For those mandating it as a requirement of salvation, I would ask: Do you believe that the wine and bread turn into Jesus' body and blood? Do you use wine or grape juice? Do you use leavened or unleavened bread? Are you willing to submit to the same measure of judging from others as you use to judge others?

Be blessed, and be honest,
Lee52

 

[Lee52]

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God."

After this Jesus and his disciples went into the Judean countryside, and he remained there with them and was baptizing. John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because water was plentiful there, and people were coming and being baptized (for John had not yet been put in prison).

Now a discussion arose between some of John’s disciples and a Jew over purification. And they came to John and said to him, "Rabbi, he who was with you across the Jordan, to whom you bore witness—look, he is baptizing, and all are going to him." John answered, "A person cannot receive even one thing unless it is given him from heaven. You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, 'I am not the Christ, but I have been sent before him.' The one who has the bride is the bridegroom. The friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly at the bridegroom’s voice. Therefore this joy of mine is now complete. He must increase, but I must decrease."

He who comes from above is above all. He who is of the earth belongs to the earth and speaks in an earthly way. He who comes from heaven is above all. He bears witness to what he has seen and heard, yet no one receives his testimony. Whoever receives his testimony sets his seal to this, that God is true. For he whom God has sent utters the words of God, for he gives the Spirit without measure. The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand. Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. John 3:16-36 ESV

BTW, in the words of Bible2; "Note that it has never been proven" that the Bible is true. It is a matter of faith. Faith in God, and faith in Jesus' substitutional sacrifice on our behalf. There is one salvation, and that in Christ alone.

Be blessed,
Lee52

 

[Bible2]

DaLeKo said:

The truth is, no doctrine, true or false, is going to cause someone to be snatched out of the hand of their Savior (John 10:28), or they were NEVER one of His sheep to begin with (John 10:26-28).

John 10:26-27 means that those who are Jesus Christ's sheep (the elect) will hear his voice in his Word and eventually believe in him (Acts 13:48b), while those who aren't his sheep (the nonelect) can't possibly hear (accept) his Word and believe in him (John 8:42-47). The elect come to Jesus and get saved only because they had previously been given to Jesus by God the Father (John 6:37); they come to Jesus only by the Father drawing them to Jesus (John 6:44).

Faith is a miraculous gift from God (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65, 1 Corinthians 3:5, Romans 12:3b). The elect believe and are initially saved by God's choice, not their choice (Romans 9:16, John 1:13, John 15:16). But the ultimate salvation of the elect will depend on their choices subsequent to their initial salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29, Hebrews 6:4-8, Matthew 25:26,30), because salvation doesn't take away free will.

John 10:28-29 means that saved people will never perish so long as they remain in God's hand, and that no one outside of a saved person can ever take him out of God's hand. But note that John 10:28-29 doesn't mean that saved people are imprisoned in God's hand, that saved people can't wrongly employ their free will to jump out of God's hand themselves, such as by committing apostasy, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6, 2 Timothy 2:12).

Also, John 10:28-29 doesn't mean that God himself can't in the end cast saved people out of his hand, that they can't in the end lose their salvation, if they don't continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22), such as by wrongly employing their free will to commit sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29, 1 Corinthians 9:27, Matthew 24:48-51), or by wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8).

 

[Bible2]

Lee52 said:

I will leave this thread to new Christians with this thought: What did Jesus say to the woman "caught in the very act" of adultery?

Did Jesus tell her to go get baptized, or did he just tell her to go and sin no more?

In other situations where Jesus forgave people's sins, did He just forgive them of their sins, or did he tell them to go and be baptized before their sins were forgiven?

Note that the woman caught in adultery, who called Jesus "Lord" (John 8:11), could have already been baptized, but then backslid into adultery. Nothing in John 8:11 or any other verse in the Gospels contradicts the fact that in order to be saved ultimately, believers must get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus Christ's death for our sins (Mark 16:16, 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16).

Also, baptism is only a New Covenant/New Testament requirement for ultimate salvation, and the New Covenant/New Testament wasn't put into legal effect until Jesus Christ died (Hebrews 9:16-17, Matthew 26:28). But most of the events in the Gospels happened before Jesus died, when baptism wasn't yet a requirement for ultimate salvation.

But now that Jesus' death is past, believers have to obey all of his New Covenant/New Testament commandments (John 14:21-24) if they want to obtain ultimate salvation (Hebrews 5:9, Revelation 22:14, Romans 2:6-8), including Jesus' commandment that every believer get baptized (Matthew 28:19-20, Mark 16:16, cf. Acts 2:38).

Also, a saved person can in the end lose his salvation if he wrongly employs his free will to commit unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29, 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46), which includes unrepentant sins of omission (James 4:17), which would include refusing to get baptized, without repentance.

Lee52 said:

Note: David and I have never once said to NOT get baptized by immersion. We have all said that it is necessary as an outward sign of an inward change. AND, it is not necessary for salvation to "stick" prior to getting dunked. For those mandating it as a requirement of salvation, I would ask: Do you believe that the wine and bread turn into Jesus' body and blood?

Yes. Initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they partake of the divine flesh and blood of communion (John 6:53, Matthew 26:26-28, 1 Corinthians 10:16, 1 Corinthians 11:27-30), and there's no assurance that all initially saved people will choose to do that (cf. John 6:60,66).

Lee52 said:

Do you use wine or grape juice?

Either one.

Lee52 said:

Do you use leavened or unleavened bread?

Either one.

Lee52 said:

Are you willing to submit to the same measure of judging from others as you use to judge others?

All believers must submit to what the Bible itself teaches.

Lee52 said:

Be blessed, and be honest,
Lee52

Note that no dishonesty has been proven with regard to what's been presented.

 

[Bible2]

Lee52 said:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God."

After this Jesus and his disciples went into the Judean countryside, and he remained there with them and was baptizing. John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because water was plentiful there, and people were coming and being baptized (for John had not yet been put in prison).

Now a discussion arose between some of John’s disciples and a Jew over purification. And they came to John and said to him, "Rabbi, he who was with you across the Jordan, to whom you bore witness—look, he is baptizing, and all are going to him." John answered, "A person cannot receive even one thing unless it is given him from heaven. You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, 'I am not the Christ, but I have been sent before him.' The one who has the bride is the bridegroom. The friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly at the bridegroom’s voice. Therefore this joy of mine is now complete. He must increase, but I must decrease."

He who comes from above is above all. He who is of the earth belongs to the earth and speaks in an earthly way. He who comes from heaven is above all. He bears witness to what he has seen and heard, yet no one receives his testimony. Whoever receives his testimony sets his seal to this, that God is true. For he whom God has sent utters the words of God, for he gives the Spirit without measure. The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand. Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. John 3:16-36 ESV

Note that other, related verses show that believers ultimately retaining their salvation will be conditional upon their continued belief unto the end (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23, Hebrews 6:4-8), their continued good works and obedience unto the end (Romans 2:6-8, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30), and their continued repentance from every sin that they might commit unto the end (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46, 1 Corinthians 9:27).

The way to do Christian theology isn't to base it on just what some unqualified verses say to Christians, but on what the entire Bible says to Christians (2 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 4:4). Verses applicable to Christians in one place in the Bible must be compared with (qualified by) other, related verses (also applicable to Christians) elsewhere in the Bible (Isaiah 28:9-10, 1 Corinthians 2:13).

An example of an unqualified verse would be John 3:36. We can't say, for example, that it means that all we have to believe is that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. For John 3:36 must be qualified by, for example, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 (and vice versa). We have to believe both that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that he died for our sins and rose from the dead on the third day.

So when John 3:36, for example, is qualified, something is added to it, not subtracted from it. 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 adds further belief requirements to John 3:36 (and vice versa). 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 doesn't subtract, or contradict, the belief requirement of John 3:36 (or vice versa).

Another way that John 3:36, for example, must be qualified is that we can't say, for example, that it means that all we have to do is believe for at least one moment during our lifetime. For John 3:36 must be qualified by other verses which show that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only on the condition that they continue in the faith unto the end (Hebrews 3:6,14, Colossians 1:23). And this is just one of the conditions which the Bible as a whole shows must be met in order for initially saved people to obtain ultimate salvation.

Lee52 said:

BTW, in the words of Bible2; "Note that it has never been proven" that the Bible is true.

Note that "it hasn't been proven" hasn't been directed toward the truth of the Bible itself, but only to unproven claims regarding the falsity or inappropriateness of what has been presented.

Lee52 said:

It is a matter of faith. Faith in God, and faith in Jesus' substitutional sacrifice on our behalf. There is one salvation, and that in Christ alone.

Note again that the ideas of initial salvation and ultimate salvation don't have to be explicitly referred to in scripture as "initial salvation" and "ultimate salvation" in order for them to be true and supported by scripture, just as, for example, the ideas of the unity of God and the Trinity don't have to be explicitly referred to in scripture as "the unity" and "the Trinity" in order for them to be true and supported by scripture.

In the Bible itself, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is by faith without works (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Romans 4:1-5), whereas ultimate salvation is by both faith and works of faith (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Philippians 2:12b, 2 Corinthians 5:9, 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14, Hebrews 5:9, Revelation 22:14).

Also, in the Bible itself, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is the salvation that Christians have now (Ephesians 2:5) in their mortal physical bodies, whereas ultimate salvation is that salvation which is ready to be revealed in the last time (1 Peter 1:5) and is always drawing nearer (Romans 13:11b), that salvation which Christians are still hoping for (1 Thessalonians 5:8b, Romans 8:23-25) and which Jesus Christ will bring to obedient Christians at his second coming (Hebrews 9:28, Hebrews 5:9), when he will resurrect or change their mortal physical bodies into immortal physical bodies (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16) just like the immortal physical body he obtained at his resurrection (Philippians 3:20-21, Luke 24:39, 1 John 3:2, Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:11-14).

Initial salvation, being born again (John 3:3,7, 1 Peter 1:23-25, 1 Peter 2:2), is both present salvation and a contract for ultimate salvation, just as the birth of an infant is both present life and a contract for life as an adult. Just as children can know that they're actually alive, so initially saved people can know that they're actually saved. And just as an infant can't "give back" his being born, so a born again person can't "give back" his being born again, his being initially saved. But just as there's no assurance that children will reach adulthood, so there's no assurance that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation. Just as there are conditions placed on children, like not running into traffic and not drinking the Drano under the sink, if they're to reach adulthood, so there are conditions placed on the born-again, the initially saved, if they're to obtain ultimate salvation (e.g. Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 3:6,14, 1 Corinthians 9:27).

 

[Lee52]

NOTE that if predesitination of ONLY the elect were true, Jesus had no need to suffer a brutal, agonizing death on the cross in payment for the sins of those elect which were predestined from the dawn of time to be saved. The sacrifice becomes moot because they were predestined before time began to spend eternity with God.

What a brutal and unjust god you serve bible2. BTW, there is but one Bible. No need for 2. Keep typing; the errors of your theology is becoming more and more clear as you type.

 

[Lee52]

Now let me explain to those who will read and understand; In the beginning, God's creation was meant to be a place that He and His creation, man and woman, could fellowship in perfect relationship. Adam and Eve blew that for all. God knew this and because He had predestined all men and women to have perfect relationship with Himself, He knew our free will choices ahead of time and planned the perfect reconciliation; Himself as Jesus; the Word of God made flesh, to reconcile ALL who will choose to believe in Him and ask that He become the perfect sacrifice for them.

We were all predestined to be in that eternal relationship with our Creator. That some choose evil, is not by God's desire, but by man's free will.

Some here, would have others believe that the word ALL in the Bible does not really mean ALL. To accept that means that ALL of the Bible is not true and must be qualified by "those who are enlightened" beyond the words contained in the Bible.

How about we look at Jesus' own words on the subject?

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life." John 3:14-15

"And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." John 12:32

 

[Aibrean]

There is no requirement that you be fully immersed to be baptized. No matter who tries to tell you that, baptized is only defined in the Bible as a union of water with the Word. If you want to be fully immersed, that's fine. I understand why people would like to follow in the example of Christ.

 

[Bible2]

Lee52 said:

NOTE that if predesitination of ONLY the elect were true, Jesus had no need to suffer a brutal, agonizing death on the cross in payment for the sins of those elect which were predestined from the dawn of time to be saved. The sacrifice becomes moot because they were predestined before time began to spend eternity with God.

Rather, the elect are those individuals who were chosen (elected) and predestinated by God before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-11, 2 Thessalonians 2:13b), before they were born (Romans 9:11-24), to become initially saved at some point during their lifetime (Acts 13:48b), and this initial salvation is only possible because of Jesus' sacrifice (Romans 3:25-26), which was also foreordained by God before the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8b, 1 Peter 1:19-20).

The nonelect can't possibly believe in Jesus Christ and the gospel and be initially saved, even when they're shown the truth (John 8:42-47, John 10:26, Matthew 13:38-42), because the ability to believe in Jesus Christ and the gospel comes only to the elect (Acts 13:48b) wholly by God's grace as a miraculous gift from God (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65, 1 Corinthians 3:5b, Romans 12:3b), just as the ability to repent comes only as a miraculous gift from God (2 Timothy 2:25b, Acts 11:18b).

Everyone on his own is wholly corrupt (Romans 3:9-12), and so it's impossible for people on their own to ever believe in Jesus Christ and the gospel and be initially saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31, 1 John 5:13) through their own will (Romans 9:16, John 1:13, John 6:65) or through their own intellect (1 Corinthians 1:18-2:16). Unsaved people can't possibly understand the gospel (1 Corinthians 2:14, 1 Corinthians 1:18) because only initially saved people, who have received the miraculous gift of some measure of God's own Spirit, can understand it (1 Corinthians 2:11-16).

God doesn't love everyone: he hates the nonelect (Romans 9:11-22). During their lifetime, God hardens the nonelect in their sinfulness instead of showing them his mercy (Romans 9:18), because he created them to be vessels of his wrath (Romans 9:20-22, Proverbs 16:4); they were ordained to condemnation (Jude 1:4); they were appointed to disobedience (1 Peter 2:8b, Acts 2:23). But God never forces them or anyone else to commit sin; he never even tempts anyone to commit sin (James 1:13-15). All people will be justly held accountable on judgment day for their deeds (Romans 2:6-8) because neither election nor nonelection takes away the free will of people.

God created nonelect people to be vessels of his wrath instead of vessels of his mercy so that he might eternally make known his wrath and power (Romans 9:21-22, Proverbs 16:4, Revelation 14:10-11), just as God created elect people to be vessels of his mercy so that he might eternally make known his mercy, glory and wisdom (Romans 9:23, Ephesians 3:10, Ephesians 1:8,11).

God wants these aspects of his nature to be made known both to humans and to angels (Ephesians 3:10), neither of which group yet knows experientially the full extent of God's qualities and abilities (1 Corinthians 2:9, 1 Peter 1:12b). For example, the full extent of God's wrath won't be known to humans and angels until the devil and his fallen angels and all of unsaved humanity are cast into the eternal punishment of the lake of fire (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11) and saved humans and holy angels go forth from the city of New Jerusalem on the new earth to witness the punishment of the unsaved in the lake of fire (Isaiah 66:24), the eternal hell (Mark 9:45-46), and realize by actually seeing it not only the extent of God's wrath, but by it (by way of contrast) the extent of God's mercy toward them (Lamentations 3:22-23).

Just as "up" can't be eternally known for what it is without the eternal co-existence of "down", so God's mercy can't be eternally known for what it is without the eternal co-existence of his wrath.

Lee52 said:

What a brutal and unjust god you serve bible2.

As mere humans, we must be careful not to condemn the way that God himself has chosen to reveal all that he is (Romans 9:20-24), both a loving being (1 John 4:8, John 15:13, Matthew 26:28) and a vengeful being (Hebrews 12:29, Luke 12:49, 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9). We mustn't say that it's evil for God not to save everyone and to send the unsaved into eternal punishment (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 14:10-11). For by saying this we would be making humans more important than God and his wishes. And this is something which Satan causes people to do, just as Jesus at one point "said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men" (Matthew 16:23).

No matter how it may irk the Satanic pride of us humans, wanting to be important like God (Isaiah 14:12-14), so important that God would never even think of not saving all of us and casting some of us into hell forever (Isaiah 14:15, Revelation 20:10,15), we must always remember that it's God's right to do whatever he wants with his creatures (Romans 9:21-23). We must always remember that even all of humanity together is infinitesimal and worth less than nothing compared with God (Isaiah 40:17-18). We must resist our Satanic, human pride (which we can unsconsciously disguise with good-sounding words about God's love for us), and completely humble ourselves before God (James 4:7-10, 1 Peter 5:6-8), pleading that he might have mercy upon us sinners (Luke 18:13-14).

The devil would love nothing more than to get us humans in our sinful pride to wrongly reject the God of the Bible (YHWH) as evil, so that we will end up in the lake of fire forever with the devil and his fallen angels (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Mark 9:43-44). The coming Antichrist, who will be empowered by the devil (2 Thessalonians 2:9, Revelation 13:4), will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36), and no doubt one of his chief blasphemies against YHWH will be that YHWH is an evil god. (This is one of the ancient blasphemies of Gnosticism, another being the antichrist lie that Christ isn't in the flesh: 1 John 4:3.) During the coming worldwide reign of the Antichrist, the whole world will be deceived into rejecting YHWH and worshipping Lucifer (the dragon, the devil) and the Antichrist (the beast) instead (Revelation 13:4-18, cf. Revelation 12:9).

It's the ultimate proof of the humility of believers (James 4:10, Acts 20:19a, Matthew 23:12) for them to accept the facts of double predestination (Romans 9:11-24) and an eternal hell (Matthew 25:41,46) without rejecting YHWH as being evil for these things, because it means that believers have humbly accepted the fact that the wholly-good YHWH (Deuteronomy 32:4, 1 John 1:5) is infinitely more important than even all of sinful humanity together (Isaiah 40:17).

Lee52 said:

BTW, there is but one Bible. No need for 2.

Note that "Bible2" doesn't mean "a second Bible", for there's no such thing. Instead, taken together with "Matthew 4:4" (which appears just below "Bible2"), it should be read as "Bible too", in the sense that we don't live by food only, but by every word of the Bible too (Matthew 4:4).

Lee52 said:

Keep typing; the errors of your theology is becoming more and more clear as you type.

Note that it hasn't been proven that there's any error in what has been presented.

Lee52 said:

Now let me explain to those who will read and understand; In the beginning, God's creation was meant to be a place that He and His creation, man and woman, could fellowship in perfect relationship. Adam and Eve blew that for all. God knew this and because He had predestined all men and women to have perfect relationship with Himself, He knew our free will choices ahead of time and planned the perfect reconciliation; Himself as Jesus; the Word of God made flesh, to reconcile ALL who will choose to believe in Him and ask that He become the perfect sacrifice for them.

We were all predestined to be in that eternal relationship with our Creator.

Note that the Bible doesn't teach that God predestined all people to have a perfect relationship with him.

Lee52 said:

That some choose evil, is not by God's desire, but by man's free will.

As was pointed out above, God hardens the nonelect in their sinfulness instead of showing them his mercy (Romans 9:18), because he created them to be vessels of his wrath (Romans 9:20-22, Proverbs 16:4); they were ordained to condemnation (Jude 1:4); they were appointed to disobedience (1 Peter 2:8b, Acts 2:23). But God never forces them or anyone else to commit sin; he never even tempts anyone to commit sin (James 1:13-15). All people will be justly held accountable on judgment day for their deeds (Romans 2:6-8) because neither election nor nonelection takes away the free will of people.

Lee52 said:

Some here, would have others believe that the word ALL in the Bible does not really mean ALL. To accept that means that ALL of the Bible is not true and must be qualified by "those who are enlightened" beyond the words contained in the Bible.

Note that it hasn't been said that all of the Bible isn't true, because all of it is true (2 Timothy 3:16). Also, note that no reference has been made to "those who are enlightened" beyond the words contained in the Bible.

Lee52 said:

How about we look at Jesus' own words on the subject?

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life."
John 3:14-15

"And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." John 12:32

Regarding John 3:15, it means that anyone who believes in Jesus gets saved. It doesn't mean that everyone can believe in Jesus, because other verses show that some people (the nonelect) can't possibly believe in Jesus (John 6:65, John 8:42-47, John 10:26, Matthew 13:38-42).

Regarding John 12:32, it means that all manner of people can believe in Jesus and be saved (Revelation 5:9), not absolutely all people (Romans 9:11-24), just as, for example, John 3:26b means that all manner of people came to Jesus during his first-coming earthly ministry, not absolutely all people. The original Greek word ("pas", G3956) translated as "all" can simply mean "all manner of" (e.g. Acts 10:12). It doesn't have to mean absolutely all.

John 12:32 doesn't mean that absolutely all people can believe in Jesus, because, again, other verses show that some people (the nonelect) can't possibly believe in Jesus (John 6:65, John 8:42-47, John 10:26, Matthew 13:38-42).

Also, John 12:32 doesn't mean that absolutely all people will be saved, because other verses show that most people won't be saved (Matthew 25:41,46, Matthew 13:38-42, Matthew 7:14, Matthew 22:14).