Baptism is only a symbol?

[DaRev]

Do I hear an echo?

 

[LutheranMafia]

Great points, Ed!

I tried to wander from the faith as I've stated on this board before! God doesn't allow it, of course.

When my daughter was born, that yearning to have her baptized was SO strong! I know it's the work of the Holy Spirit leading us to this. The promises in baptism are so great and who are we to say that God lies?

I did wait for about 4 months before my daughter was actually baptized. At her birth, she was born with Group B Strep which is a blood infection and was VERY ill. I struggled with God about it because I was angry that I had to go through a hard birth and then have a child who was ill and I didn't know would live or die. I thought that if I had her baptized it would mean I was giving him permission to allow her to die and be taken to heaven...I didn't want her to die...so He and I talked it out...Ok, I talked and cried and He comforted me. Isn't that usually how it is?

I've rambled...sorry. I just thought it was wonderful of you to bring up the fact that mothers have a strong yearning to have their children baptized.

When I was 7 my Catholic grandfather took me briefly to his church on a weekday when no one was there. I don't have a clue what was going through his mind but he was grinning from ear to ear like something was up. There was nothing there but folding chairs, a podium and a baptismal bowl. He dipped his hand in the water, said this is what the priest does when he baptizes you, and put his hand on my head. All of a sudden something shot through me and I was engulfed in a peaceful euphoria that felt somehow much more stable and solid. I don’t know what that was all about exactly, it was rather odd actually, but it left a very strong spiritual impression on me.

My parents’ families actually fought over my baptism and I ended up being baptized twice, Lutheran and Catholic.

 

[deepgreen11]

.

My parents’ families actually fought over my baptism and I ended up being baptized twice, Lutheran and Catholic.

Interesting! I've been baptized a total of three times now. Once as a tiny infant in the hospital (I was ailing pretty badly) in Catholic tradition, once more in Catholic tradition as an eight year old girl (because someone argued that the first was not legitimate) , and once during catechism in a non-denominational church when I was thirteen. Interesting stuff.

 

[Melethiel]

I was baptized once, as an infant, in the Eastern Orthodox church. The second time, when I was 8 in a nondenom church, I got wet.

 

[RevCowboy]

Interesting! I've been baptized a total of three times now. Once as a tiny infant in the hospital (I was ailing pretty badly) in Catholic tradition, once more in Catholic tradition as an eight year old girl (because someone argued that the first was not legitimate) , and once during catechism in a non-denominational church when I was thirteen. Interesting stuff.

Well, as long as the first one was done in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, that is all you need.

 

[deepgreen11]

Well, as long as the first one was done in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, that is all you need.

it sure is! I'm so glad i know that now.

 

[LutheranMafia]

I was baptized once, as an infant, in the Eastern Orthodox church. The second time, when I was 8 in a nondenom church, I got wet.

How wet, did it involve dunking?

 

[Melethiel]

How wet, did it involve dunking?

Yup.

 

[deepgreen11]

How wet, did it involve dunking?

you weren't asking me, but mine did. Ha.

 

[DaRev]

I was baptized once, as an infant, in the Eastern Orthodox church. The second time, when I was 8 in a nondenom church, I got wet.

Had a nice swim in church, eh?

 

[Edial]

I was also baptized twice.

Once after I was born in the EO church and once when I became a believer in a Baptist church.

I respect both baptisms.

The one after I was born as a real one in a sacramental way and the one after I became a believer as a symbolic one, since that's what they taught there.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[BabyLutheran]

I was dunked and the water had just been run. It was freezing cold, I guess I will never forget my baptism.

 

[Mary of Bethany]

I was "baptized" twice - the first (real) time at 8 years old in our Baptist church. The 2nd time, I was 13 and decided that I hadn't really been "saved" the first time, so I had to "get saved" again and re-"baptized". I was confused.

Mary

 

[Levahddi]

I was baptized once as a Roman Catholic.

 

[Zecryphon]

I was dunked and the water had just been run. It was freezing cold, I guess I will never forget my baptism.

You want cold? Check out this Siberian Baptism.

 

[Edial]

Would you agree with what follows?

At creation we find three key ingredients; water, the Spirit of God and the word of God. At our new creation we find these same three ingredients, the water of baptism, the Spirit of God hovering over the waters and the creative word of God. In the sacrament of baptism the Word of God is united with Water by the Spirit and so just as at Creation, when Yahweh spoke, the heavens and earth were brought forth into being, so likewise at the New Creation, when Yaweh’s creative word sounds forth at baptism, faith is bought into being (created) in the young infant.


At creation Yahweh brought forth order out of chaos, so likewise we, through union with the death and resurrection of Christ, leave the old creation to become a part of the new creation, a member of Christ the new Israel, a part of true humanity. Our lives, once chaotic by sin are renewed by Yahweh’s creative word at baptism to become ordered and Spirit led, the torah written upon our hearts.


In our baptism Yahweh declares to you, “You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased” and to the World he declares, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased”. This is then a statement of our identity. Just as Jesus “was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead” (Romans 1:4) so when we are baptized into his resurrection we say with Jesus, “I will tell of the decree: The LORD said to me, ‘You are my Son; today I have begotten you’” (Psalm 2:7). Through our baptism “the Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ” (Romans 8:16, 17), we are assured that Yahweh is our Father and so address him appropriately.


The union of water, word and Spirit at baptism marks our departure from the old creation to the new and so acts as an eschatological sign of our new-exodus through the death and resurrection of Christ. Just as Israel passed through the waters of the Red Sea and escaped the bondage of Egypt, so we pass through the waters of baptism and are set free from the bondage of sin to new life, a more abundant life.

What is the source of this text?

Thanks,
Ed

 

[jamescarvin]

Originally Posted by DominusIesus

Would you agree with what follows?

At creation we find three key ingredients; water, the Spirit of God and the word of God. At our new creation we find these same three ingredients, the water of baptism, the Spirit of God hovering over the waters and the creative word of God. In the sacrament of baptism the Word of God is united with Water by the Spirit and so just as at Creation, when Yahweh spoke, the heavens and earth were brought forth into being, so likewise at the New Creation, when Yaweh’s creative word sounds forth at baptism, faith is bought into being (created) in the young infant.


At creation Yahweh brought forth order out of chaos, so likewise we, through union with the death and resurrection of Christ, leave the old creation to become a part of the new creation, a member of Christ the new Israel, a part of true humanity. Our lives, once chaotic by sin are renewed by Yahweh’s creative word at baptism to become ordered and Spirit led, the torah written upon our hearts.


In our baptism Yahweh declares to you, “You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased” and to the World he declares, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased”. This is then a statement of our identity. Just as Jesus “was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead” (Romans 1:4) so when we are baptized into his resurrection we say with Jesus, “I will tell of the decree: The LORD said to me, ‘You are my Son; today I have begotten you’” (Psalm 2:7). Through our baptism “the Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ” (Romans 8:16, 17), we are assured that Yahweh is our Father and so address him appropriately.


The union of water, word and Spirit at baptism marks our departure from the old creation to the new and so acts as an eschatological sign of our new-exodus through the death and resurrection of Christ. Just as Israel passed through the waters of the Red Sea and escaped the bondage of Egypt, so we pass through the waters of baptism and are set free from the bondage of sin to new life, a more abundant life.
​

What is the source of this text?

Thanks,
Ed

I liked this view. It seemed to come from the heart of one reading the texts, reflecting on the sacraments, and being impacted by revelation.

I am interested in Lutheran views. Asking what the source is makes me wonder how Lutherans view tradition (their own) as a source of authority and something to safeguard. There is obviously a very well-defined set of dogma. The Bible, I think, is rich with words that enlighten and refine confessions.

I would also like to know how my own thinking on baptism, which does not come from a Lutheran source specifically, but does support infant baptism, fits in with Lutheran thought.

My thinking is that the churches have completely missed a core truth with respect to the notion that there is only one baptism. I suspect that the same idea of sharing only one cup, which is similar to the one cloud under which the whole nation of Israel was under, in the one baptism into Moses, is the same cloud we are under in Christ's baptism. We all die together in Him and rise together in Him by the One Spirit. Christ is not divided.

So when people speak of being baptised a second or third time, my gut reaction is to think that they are missing something more fundamental, that they are simply reexpressing or entering more deeply through time into the one eternal baptism they personally share in Him.

Baptism, as I see it is a lifelong process. The rite expresses this process. The length of life is eternal in Him by the rebirth to eternal life.

The power of the baptism is in Christ. The intellect is ultimately given over to Him. The faith comes from Him. All comes from and ends in Him.

Subsequent sacraments, chrismation, communion, matrimony, healing, orders - these are also expressions of the same power and reality. Yes, they are symbols, but the power is real because the salvation and the rebirth and the life in the Spirit are real.

I would say that we get the cart before the horse with respect to efficaciousness of sacraments as it is the fact of Christ that is the essence of the power, rather than the performance of the rite, but all of these expressions are also effective prayers that ought to be performed in His will, escpecially as commandments. My first response to anyone who does not believe in infant baptism is to ask whether or not they believe in the effective power of prayer.

This is not a place to present any views other than Lutheran. But I want to ask you by way of expressing my understanding, whether or not this view would be considered Lutheran, and if not, how so and why.

 

[DominusIesus]

What is the source of this text?

A lot of reading and study on my part (original here).

 

[filosofer]

I liked this view. It seemed to come from the heart of one reading the texts, reflecting on the sacraments, and being impacted by revelation.

I am interested in Lutheran views. Asking what the source is makes me wonder how Lutherans view tradition (their own) as a source of authority and something to safeguard. There is obviously a very well-defined set of dogma. The Bible, I think, is rich with words that enlighten and refine confessions.

I would also like to know how my own thinking on baptism, which does not come from a Lutheran source specifically, but does support infant baptism, fits in with Lutheran thought.

My thinking is that the churches have completely missed a core truth with respect to the notion that there is only one baptism. I suspect that the same idea of sharing only one cup, which is similar to the one cloud under which the whole nation of Israel was under, in the one baptism into Moses, is the same cloud we are under in Christ's baptism. We all die together in Him and rise together in Him by the One Spirit. Christ is not divided.

So when people speak of being baptised a second or third time, my gut reaction is to think that they are missing something more fundamental, that they are simply reexpressing or entering more deeply through time into the one eternal baptism they personally share in Him.

If you read carefully, those in this thread who said they had been "baptized a second time" were referring to their membership in non-Lutheran churches which do not accept infant baptism. Thus, their membership hinged on "baptized again" thinking, not Lutheran theology.

Baptism, as I see it is a lifelong process. The rite expresses this process. The length of life is eternal in Him by the rebirth to eternal life.

The power of the baptism is in Christ. The intellect is ultimately given over to Him. The faith comes from Him. All comes from and ends in Him.

Subsequent sacraments, chrismation, communion, matrimony, healing, orders - these are also expressions of the same power and reality. Yes, they are symbols, but the power is real because the salvation and the rebirth and the life in the Spirit are real.

As Lutherans, we do not accept "subsequent sacraments" as you have defined it - that is RCC teaching.

I would say that we get the cart before the horse with respect to efficaciousness of sacraments as it is the fact of Christ that is the essence of the power, rather than the performance of the rite, but all of these expressions are also effective prayers that ought to be performed in His will, escpecially as commandments. My first response to anyone who does not believe in infant baptism is to ask whether or not they believe in the effective power of prayer.

As Lutherans we understand sacraments as Gospel: that is, something that God does for us and for our salvation (including forgiveness of sins), "in, with, and under" the visible signs. Prayer, on the other hand, is Law: something that we do in response to God's work. Thus, to put prayer into the same category as sacraments would not reflect Lutheran theology.

See Luther's Small Catechism for how we express these Biblical truths.

 

[jamescarvin]

I have lots of thoughts about your reply. I could supply the Biblical and theological basis for my own thinking, which obviously didn't just appear out of nowhere, but do not believe that I am allowed by forum rules to post these thoughts. I thank you for your response. I would be interested in the thoughts of other Lutherans on this subject.