Baptism: Essential for salvation or not?

[Crispie]

http://www.layhands.com/IsBaptismForSalvation1.htm


I suggest everyone reads this 4 part message. This message explains all the greatest verses supporting Baptism, along with showing beyond a doubt how baptism is not a requirement of Salvation. I have truely been blessed by this, and I hope everyone else is also. The best part is, this message is entirely based scripturally, using everything it teaches based on dozens of passages from the NT.

 

[Stinker]

Crispie: Can you post what the meaning is of a 'dead faith' ?

 

[Crispie]

When you do not commit works reflecting your faith.

 

[- DRA -]

Baptism from the verses I have shown is not required, but is commanded by God. God also commands us to love our neighbors, to do good works, so forth. If we dont do these things we are sinning, but this doesnt cause us to lose our salvation. You do not lose salvation if you are not baptized after being saved. So to answer your question, not being baptized does not threaten your salvation, but it is still a sin to deliberately avoid baptism entirely after you are saved.

You previously posted Acts 10:44-48. That particular passage tells us that baptism was commanded, but does not state the purpose. The purpose for baptism is stated in Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, and Acts 22:16. Would you post those passages for us and discuss what they say that baptism is for?

 

[william jay schroeder]

http://www.layhands.com/IsBaptismForSalvation1.htm


I suggest everyone reads this 4 part message. This message explains all the greatest verses supporting Baptism, along with showing beyond a doubt how baptism is not a requirement of Salvation. I have truely been blessed by this, and I hope everyone else is also. The best part is, this message is entirely based scripturally, using everything it teaches based on dozens of passages from the NT.

this was a very good article to read, But i would like to read something to prove that water babtism is a command to do for obediance. they use matt.28 but there are problems with useing this. One the apostle never use this method Saying I babtize you in the name of ......, it also is not in the Gosple of John, or in Luke, or in Mark. If it was a specific command i would think it would be in all four. Do you have a answer to this.

 

[- DRA -]

http://www.layhands.com/IsBaptismForSalvation1.htm

I suggest everyone reads this 4 part message. This message explains all the greatest verses supporting Baptism, along with showing beyond a doubt how baptism is not a requirement of Salvation. I have truely been blessed by this, and I hope everyone else is also. The best part is, this message is entirely based scripturally, using everything it teaches based on dozens of passages from the NT.

First of all, thanks for sharing this article with us.

Second, let's examine the principle behind most of the reasoning presented. Consider Matthew chapter 2. It presents Jesus as being born in Bethlehem, called out of Egypt, and called a Nazarene. Which aspect is true?

All the passages that stress the importance of faith and how we are saved by faith are indeed great verses. They are inspired of God (2 Tim. 3:16a). However, the other passages are also inspired of God, right? Assuming that we agree that they are, then we must consider them also, right? The website you posted quotes numerous verses relating to faith. However, not one of those verses says "faith only" or "faith alone." Is the word "only" or "alone" implied? If so, other passages will show that to be true?

Let's see what other passages say about faith alone. James 2:24 says, "You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only." Luke 6:46 records a similar statement: "But why do you call Me 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do the things which I say?" And, in John 14:21a, Jesus says, "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me."

If faith alone was all that was necessary for salvation, then that is all that would be taught. Is it? How about repentance? Isn't it also necessary? If not, why not e.g. Luke 13:3,5; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 17:30? How about confessing Jesus? Isn't it also necessary? If not, why not e.g. Matt. 10:32-33; Rom. 10:9-10? How about baptism? Isn't it also necessary? If not, why not e.g. Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16; Rom. 6:3-11; 1 Pet. 3:20-21?

Just a quick observation from the website article you provided a link to:

From the section entitled: "Examples of People Who Were Saved Before Being Baptized" . . .
*** Acts 3:11-28 was cited as the first example. However, this passage doesn't even give faith as a requirement. Rather, it says, "Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord" (verse 19).

My thought: Just as we must consider all three aspects of Jesus' early life in Matthew chapter 2 as truth, we must consider ALL that the Scriptures say about initial salvation in Christ to determine the truth on the matter. While faith is essential to pleasing God (see Heb. 11:6), it is NOT all that is necessary to please Him -- especially when one is concerned about having one's initial sins taken away. Consider the command given the Jews in Acts 2:38. Those that gladly received the words of the apostle Peter did as they were told and were saved (see Acts 2:41,47). That is how faith is supposed to work. Faith should lead us to obey God.

 

[- DRA -]

You keep saying harmonis your basis of belief , But how can you harmanise your belief with the book of Romans where it says through Christ we are saved Not through Christ and water babtism. isnt babtism used as symbolic for it speaks of the spirit and the fire. So which term fits were. In romans 5:1-5 it says through Faith...and have gained access by Faith... If water babtism is part and partial to salvation why is it not here. read how often it states Through Christ, And how do you read chpt,8 were it speaks of life through the spirit. This does not harmonize with you at all so do we just assume water babtism, the Book of Acts is a history of the early aposltes which wouold mean that you cant assume they are giving commands or ordainces. you speak of peter but in his books he doesnt speak of water babtism even when hes speaking of doctrinal issues, no harmonising here. Grace means we are not worthy of his forgiveness but never the less he gives it. water babtism for salvation takes grace away because it gives us the power to save. The holy spirit is given before water babtism in every instance , And it is the Holy Spirit which turns us from sin, not a act but a acceptance of Christs death and ressurection. Which is what i believe is what Mark 16;16 is saying. Believe and be babtized, or Believe i died for you Than accept it in your Heart that it is true, Than you will be saved and given the holy spirit that it might guide you in your life. I will also ask how an act could help save us when it is in our hearts that God sees what is true. Christs blood covers our sins figuratively so babtism could be figurative. Many have been water babtized but not saved how is that for if it convicts us how could we not be saved. And if does it would be first than the holy spirit but that is proven wrong in scripture.

Have you read Romans 6:3-11 yet. It discusses how those Christians were freed from their sins. And, it discusses how they became alive to God.

Your statement that I bolded in red font caught my attention. Would you show us where in Acts 8:35-39 the Holy Spirit was given to the eunuch before baptism in water?

If Mark 16:16 means that faith only is necessary for salvation, then other passages would harmonize with that teaching? Do they? How about Acts 2:38? Acts 17:30? Acts 22:16? Nope. No harmony there. Something is amiss. The understanding is wrong somewhere. Why not go back to Mark 16:16 and just accept the passage for what it says? Then you find the harmony that eludes you.

How does an act save us? By faith in the working of God (see Col. 2:12 and Romans 6:3-11).

 

[Crispie]

DRA, as far as almost all the the passages you supplied, they have already been addressed in the four part message given in the link I gave. As far as


Acts 22
16And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.'

Acts 9
17Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord--Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here--has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit." 18Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul's eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized,

Here is both the accounts in Acts of Saul recieving salvation. Just as we are told to Believe and be baptized, Ananias did the same for Saul. Saul believed, saved and was baptized. Ananias passed on the command by God to believe and be baptized. This does not go against Faith being the only requirement for Salvation. We all to be baptized when we are saved, and that is what Paul did immediately after believing.

 

[- DRA -]

DRA, as far as almost all the the passages you supplied, they have already been addressed in the four part message given in the link I gave. As far as


Acts 22
16And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.'

Acts 9
17Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord--Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here--has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit." 18Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul's eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized,

Here is both the accounts in Acts of Saul recieving salvation. Just as we are told to Believe and be baptized, Ananias did the same for Saul. Saul believed, saved and was baptized. Ananias passed on the command by God to believe and be baptized. This does not go against Faith being the only requirement for Salvation. We all to be baptized when we are saved, and that is what Paul did immediately after believing.

You present Saul as being prior to being baptized, but Acts 22:16 presents him as still needing to be baptized to have his sins washed away. That verse says (NKJV), "And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

You present Saul as believing, being saved, and then being baptized. If that was the case, then Saul was obviously saved while still in his sins. How can that be? Your conclusion contradicts both Acts 22:16 and Mark 16:16. Why not just go with what the passages teach? Saul needed to be baptized to wash away his sins. That understanding agrees with Mark 16:16. It also agrees with Acts 2:38. And, it agrees with 1 Peter 3:20-21. That is how Bible harmony is supposed to work.

 

[Crispie]

Acts 22
16And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.'


Through Salvation your sins are washed away with the blood of Jesus. Baptism symbolizes this. When you call on Jesus name and are baptized, you become saved and are baptized. That sentence means the same thing by being stated "arise, calling on his name, and wash away your sins and be baptized." You starting to understand now?


1 Peter 3
20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge[1] of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,


Did the flood saved Noah? No, actually it was what he was being protected from. It was the ark that saved him, and it was the flood that destroyed sin. In the same way Baptism is symbolized as you coming out of the flood, leaving your dead sinful person behind, beginning a new life.

 

[- DRA -]

Acts 22
16And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.'


Through Salvation your sins are washed away with the blood of Jesus. Baptism symbolizes this. When you call on Jesus name and are baptized, you become saved and are baptized. That sentence means the same thing by being stated "arise, calling on his name, and wash away your sins and be baptized." You starting to understand now?


1 Peter 3
20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water , 21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge[1] of a good conscienced toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,


Did the flood saved Noah? No, actually it was what he was being protected from. It was the ark that saved him, and it was the flood that destroyed sin. In the same way Baptism is symbolized as you coming out of the flood, leaving your dead sinful person behind, beginning a new life.

Thanks for posting these passages. Now, all you need to do is accept them. The eight souls on the ark were saved by water -- whether you admit it or not it is what the Scripture says. Baptism in water now saves us. How? By giving us a good conscience -- taking away the guilty one. It does so by the resurrection of Christ. Have you read Romans 6:3-11? It offers the details on what occurs during baptism. We are united with Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection in baptism. The old man dies, is freed from sin, and arises alive to God. This occurs DURING baptism, not BEFORE.

 

[william jay schroeder]

Have you read Romans 6:3-11 yet. It discusses how those Christians were freed from their sins. And, it discusses how they became alive to God.

Your statement that I bolded in red font caught my attention. Would you show us where in Acts 8:35-39 the Holy Spirit was given to the eunuch before baptism in water?

If Mark 16:16 means that faith only is necessary for salvation, then other passages would harmonize with that teaching? Do they? How about Acts 2:38? Acts 17:30? Acts 22:16? Nope. No harmony there. Something is amiss. The understanding is wrong somewhere. Why not go back to Mark 16:16 and just accept the passage for what it says? Then you find the harmony that eludes you.

How does an act save us? By faith in the working of God (see Col. 2:12 and Romans 6:3-11).

phillip said that he must believe with all his heart, when he did this he had the spirit in him Notice philip DID NOT SAY " If you believe with all your heart you must" So how can you use it as proving a must to be babtized, You say just read it as it states Well i do and it doesnt say I must Ity says I may. And you keep avoiding Romans and all it teaches with out water the one reverence of babtism shows how it is figurative, not commanded. WHY DID NOT THE OTHER THREE GOSPLES SAY THE SAME AS MARK16:16 You keep pluging the same old scriptures when the fact is if it was important Jesus wouold have made it clear. And who babtised the aposoltes so that they may recieve the spirit or be saved, My goodness it doesnt say, does it. they were babtised by John the babtist possible but that one was not the that saves, if this is so than Christ would not have bothered to let them babtise in this way for he wouold have explained to them there was a new water babtism to replace this one BUT its not To be Found is it. Im sorry but there is know way to explain this lack of information by Christ to his disciples. And again Acts Do Not Save You It Only Shows That Our Faith Is IN US. and Acts does not mean ordances or commands but how you live your life.

 

[Crispie]

DRA, as soon as Im done I have something to show you.

 

[Crispie]

http://www.layhands.com/BaptismOfTheHolySpirit1.htm


Help you understand what exactly baptism does. In short that link will take the place of my explanations of the verses you gave etc on baptism.

 

[Xzist]

phillip said that he must believe with all his heart, when he did this he had the spirit in him Notice philip DID NOT SAY " If you believe with all your heart you must" So how can you use it as proving a must to be babtized, You say just read it as it states Well i do and it doesnt say I must Ity says I may. And you keep avoiding Romans and all it teaches with out water the one reverence of babtism shows how it is figurative, not commanded. WHY DID NOT THE OTHER THREE GOSPLES SAY THE SAME AS MARK16:16 You keep pluging the same old scriptures when the fact is if it was important Jesus wouold have made it clear.

Jesus made it AS CLEAR AS DAY by being baptized himself "to fulfill all righteousness"
Is that not clear enough?

 

[ischus]

Wouldn't it be something if we all could say, "What more can I do for Christ?" rather than, "What is the least I can do to be saved?"....

 

[cbk]

Wouldn't it be something if we all could say, "What more can I do for Christ?" rather than, "What is the least I can do to be saved?"....

That is a great thing to say!!!

With this in mind, isn't one of the first steps in "what more can I do for Christ" doing the least (and easiest) of his dictates?

 

[ischus]

That is a great thing to say!!!

With this in mind, isn't one of the first steps in "what more can I do for Christ" doing the least (and easiest) of his dictates?

you got it

 

[Toms777]

Jesus made it AS CLEAR AS DAY by being baptized himself "to fulfill all righteousness"
Is that not clear enough?

If we had to fulfill all righteousness through works, then we would all go to hell (Romans 3:23). Thus, if baptism is essential for salvation, there is no hope for anyone.

 

[william jay schroeder]

Wouldn't it be something if we all could say, "What more can I do for Christ?" rather than, "What is the least I can do to be saved?"....

if your referring babtism and or comunion as more, that would be silly because babtism is one act once in your life and communion is an act whenever your church does it. What is more, is what and how you live your life inbetween services. That is what is more. the least is simple human sacraments which does not impress God because he wasnt impressed with all that was done in the old testemant. But if you do them Do them with in honour of Christ, and full conviction that it is what you believe he asks you to do.