Baptism/Born Again - the same?

[Carrye]

I asked a question in here a while ago within another thread, but I think it would be cleaner to have its own thread. Here are my questions:
1) Is baptism the beginning of the Christian life for a Baptist?
2) What happens to a person who dies before baptism?
3) Are baptism and being "born again" considered two different things?

 

[kayanne]

I asked a question in here a while ago within another thread, but I think it would be cleaner to have its own thread. Here are my questions:
1) Is baptism the beginning of the Christian life for a Baptist?
2) What happens to a person who dies before baptism?
3) Are baptism and being "born again" considered two different things?

1. No
2. Regardless of baptism, if he is saved he goes to heaven, if he is not saved he goes to h*ll.
3. Definitely

 

[Carrye]

Here are a few more:
4) How is one "born again?" Professing Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior?
5) What happens to a person who dies before being "born again?"

I assume that being "born again" is the beginning of the Christian life, then?

 

[@@Paul@@]

Here are a few more:
4) How is one "born again?" Professing Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior?
5) What happens to a person who dies before being "born again?"

I assume that being "born again" is the beginning of the Christian life, then?

What's with all these weird "salvation" questions?

Do you believe that you were buried with Christ and the resurrected, raised and seated with Christ at the moment you believed/confessed IE: were saved from the "penalty of sin"??

4) The old you is dead, the new you is alive... i think this is what it means to be "born again".
5) If a person dies, without accepting Christ, well,,, i don't like to think about it.

I asked a question in here a while ago within another thread, but I think it would be cleaner to have its own thread. Here are my questions:
1) Is baptism the beginning of the Christian life for a Baptist?
2) What happens to a person who dies before baptism?
3) Are baptism and being "born again" considered two different things?

1) Define "christian" life? Ephesians states there is ONE baptism, Colosians states this is DEATH of the old man. In some sense, "Baptism" is the beginning because it marks the moment in which we are "quickened" together with Christ.
2) see answer 5 above.
3) water baptism is a symbol and has nothing to do with salvation. the ONE baptism in use today (see #1) and being "born-again" (see #4) are not two different things.

Does that help?

 

[kayanne]

Paul, you've certainly confused me! I bet you've confused the OP too. I'm fairly sure the OP was referring to water baptism in her questions. So it would be contrary to baptist teaching to say that (in answer to her 3rd question) that baptism and born again are the same things.

 

[@@Paul@@]

Paul, you've certainly confused me! I bet you've confused the OP too. I'm fairly sure the OP was referring to water baptism in her questions. So it would be contrary to baptist teaching to say that (in answer to her 3rd question) that baptism and born again are the same things.

opps... there is only "one" baptism necessary today and it's not a water baptism.. I just assumed.

How about this.

1) Is baptism the beginning of the Christian life for a Baptist?
2) What happens to a person who dies before baptism?
3) Are baptism and being "born again" considered two different things?
4) How is one "born again?" Professing Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior?
5) What happens to a person who dies before being "born again?"

1) no. i would say it's being born-again.
2)nothing, he just dies.
3)yes they are two different things.
4)with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
5)

 

[theseed]

Paul, you've certainly confused me! I bet you've confused the OP too. I'm fairly sure the OP was referring to water baptism in her questions. So it would be contrary to baptist teaching to say that (in answer to her 3rd question) that baptism and born again are the same things.

Yes, we need to clarify Spiritual baptism from water baptism, which we beleive is only a symbol.

 

[theseed]

1) Is baptism the beginning of the Christian life for a Baptist?
2) What happens to a person who dies before baptism?
3) Are baptism and being "born again" considered two different things?

___________
4) How is one "born again?" Professing Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior?
5) What happens to a person who dies before being "born again?"

1)Yes, Spiritual baptism is, or regeneration, aka being "born again". Some Baptist (non Calvinist say that faith comes first, then regeneration, and faith is the beginning.

2)We believe that baptism is only a symbol of God's work in salvation, but is not required for salvation.

3)I know for Catholics, Spiritual bapitsm and water baptism are the same thing. But this is not true for Baptists.

4)Most will say by faith first, and then the work of the Holy Spirit. Those that are Calvinist like myself will say that its by God's intiative alone, and faith is the result of regeneration.

5)They don't enter the Kingdom of Heaven (John 3:3, 5)

Anybody who personally places thier faith in Christ for thier salvation will be saved. We don't have to understand everthing for God to direct our paths (Prov. 3:5-6)

 

[Cary.Melvin]

5)They don't enter the Kingdom of Heaven (John 3:3, 5)

So if you die as a child or young adult before being born again, you do not enter the Kingdom of Heaven?

 

[jenptcfan]

So if you die as a child or young adult before being born again, you do not enter the Kingdom of Heaven?

We touched on this in another thread. If you die before the age of accountability (before you have the mental capacity to understand the meaning of being born again), you go to heaven without being born again.

 

[Cary.Melvin]

We touched on this in another thread. If you die before the age of accountability (before you have the mental capacity to understand the meaning of being born again), you go to heaven without being born again.

So if you die before this age of accountability you automaticaly go to Heaven?

Where in the Bible can I read about this age of accountability?

 

[Carrye]

1)Yes, Spiritual baptism is, or regeneration, aka being "born again". Some Baptist (non Calvinist say that faith comes first, then regeneration, and faith is the beginning.

2)We believe that baptism is only a symbol of God's work in salvation, but is not required for salvation.

3)I know for Catholics, Spiritual bapitsm and water baptism are the same thing. But this is not true for Baptists.

4)Most will say by faith first, and then the work of the Holy Spirit. Those that are Calvinist like myself will say that its by God's intiative alone, and faith is the result of regeneration.

5)They don't enter the Kingdom of Heaven (John 3:3, 5)

Anybody who personally places thier faith in Christ for thier salvation will be saved. We don't have to understand everthing for God to direct our paths (Prov. 3:5-6)

1) So spiritual baptism (being born again) is the beginning of the Christian life? And you just baptize because Jesus did it? For you, baptism doesn't actually "do" anything? Am I correct in that?

4) For clarification: most would say that what is by God's initiative alone?

5) I'm still a bit confused about how Baptists deal with those who have not been born again - not adults so much, as you all would say they are not saved. And children haven't reached the "age of accountability" as another poster said.

Is there a set age of accountability? What about people who have never heard of Christ? What about adults who confessed once but no longer believe? Is it a one-time deal? Are the words good enough, or must there be intention behind them?

Thank you everyone for your patience. I'm really just trying to see where our differences lie, and am trying to understand your beliefs better.
Carrie

 

[littleschutt]

1) After spiritual baptism comes physical baptism. Baptism after being born again is an outward sign, a testimony. The act of baptism is the individual professing that they have accepted Christ as their Savior and are ready to live their lives accordingly. (Not they are not before). Water baptism is kind of like a pledge to the individual saying that no matter what they will stand firm for God.

Is there a set age of accountibility? I do not know. However, all through out the Bible, Jesus spoke of having child like faith. Maybe children understand more than we think.

What about the people who have never heard of Christ? That is a tough one that I have struggled with a lot. Take the indians that murdered Jim Elliot. They had absolutly no idea that there was the one true God. Never the less, they still had sin for the evil practices that they commited. Is there a way that they can get to heaven? Only by the witnessing of others. Yet God can convict the hearts of unbelievers. He has many ways to get His message moving.

Adults that confess but no longer believe might not have believed in the beginning. There is a difference between no longer believe and not seeming like it. A christian can be led astray by many things in this world. If he truly believed that God can and would save him and accepted that saving, he is a Christian. Nothing bad that he does will make him lose his salvation. He is hurting God with his sins, however.

The words are not good enough. There must be intentions. A prisoner of war may be forced to denounce his home country. Even though the words are spoken his heart is what really matters. If he does not denounce it in his heart than he has stayed true.
(this illustration does not mean that you are supposed to say things that do not agree with what your heart is thinking).

 

[Carrye]

1) After spiritual baptism comes physical baptism. Baptism after being born again is an outward sign, a testimony. The act of baptism is the individual professing that they have accepted Christ as their Savior and are ready to live their lives accordingly. (Not they are not before). Water baptism is kind of like a pledge to the individual saying that no matter what they will stand firm for God.

Is there a set age of accountibility? I do not know. However, all through out the Bible, Jesus spoke of having child like faith. Maybe children understand more than we think.

What about the people who have never heard of Christ? That is a tough one that I have struggled with a lot. Take the indians that murdered Jim Elliot. They had absolutly no idea that there was the one true God. Never the less, they still had sin for the evil practices that they commited. Is there a way that they can get to heaven? Only by the witnessing of others. Yet God can convict the hearts of unbelievers. He has many ways to get His message moving.

Adults that confess but no longer believe might not have believed in the beginning. There is a difference between no longer believe and not seeming like it. A christian can be led astray by many things in this world. If he truly believed that God can and would save him and accepted that saving, he is a Christian. Nothing bad that he does will make him lose his salvation. He is hurting God with his sins, however.

The words are not good enough. There must be intentions. A prisoner of war may be forced to denounce his home country. Even though the words are spoken his heart is what really matters. If he does not denounce it in his heart than he has stayed true.
(this illustration does not mean that you are supposed to say things that do not agree with what your heart is thinking).

1) Ok, I understand that Baptists see baptism almost as a statement of belief. But then I guess my next question is why use baptism to do that? Why aren't the words alone good enough? Does baptism DO anything?

2) Accountability: Christ told us to have child-like faith, and the faith of a child is beautiful; so trusting, and simple. But there is still a point at which a person is able to reason, or to understand and know the consequences.

3) As you said, God has many ways of communicating Himself and His message. But you said that the only way a person could get to heaven would be by the witness of another person. Surely this is important, but would a Baptist recognize the witness of created things, of all of Creation, really? (For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. -Rom 1:20)

4) About believing: You say that a person might not have believed in the beginning if he renounced Christ later - then how can a person know that he really does believe. I acknowledge your difference between not seeming to believe and really not believing, but if there's the possibility that a person really didn't believe to begin with, wouldn't that leave a person (thought to be a believer) to question his own self?

5) So it's words + intention, then? Neither can be without the other?

 

[theseed]

So if you die as a child or young adult before being born again, you do not enter the Kingdom of Heaven?

I believe that children who die in childhood are elect, and only by God's intiative, they are born again.

 

[Fun_Fundie]

I believe that everyone should be baptized if circumstances permit, though personally I'm not sure how not being baptized affects salvation!

 

[theseed]

Clskinner,

1)It does not do anything, but it means alot, and it testifies to Christ love since it is a public event.

4)Most Calvinists Baptists would say that the regeneration is not dependant on belief, but causes belief. Others would say that faith causes regeration.

5)The age of accountibility is a different topic, but as a Calvinist, I don't do believe in it. Based on Scripture, I believe that children who die childhood are elect.

Here is my thread on the subject.
http://www.christianforums.com/t100939

 

[JOYfulbeliever]

1) So spiritual baptism (being born again) is the beginning of the Christian life? And you just baptize because Jesus did it? For you, baptism doesn't actually "do" anything? Am I correct in that?

Water baptism isn't necessary for salvation. However, God commands it - and it is an act of obedience and public profession for us. It is symbolic, however, and does not equate to salvation. It symbolizes us being dead in our sins, being buried with Christ, and raised to walk with Him in a New Life - cleansed of our sins.

5) I'm still a bit confused about how Baptists deal with those who have not been born again - not adults so much, as you all would say they are not saved. And children haven't reached the "age of accountability" as another poster said.

Is there a set age of accountability?

I don't think there is a set age of accountablity. I have always understood the "age of accountability" to mean that when a child reaches the age where they are able to really understand and comprehend that they are sinners and that they need God's grace and gift in order to enter heaven. Some children mature sooner than others and will obviously have the ability of grasping this before other children. I just don't think there is a set age.

What about people who have never heard of Christ?

I don't have my Bible in front of me, so I can't give you the reference at the moment, but there are verses in , I believe Romans 1, that talk about how people are without excuse.

What about adults who confessed once but no longer believe? Is it a one-time deal? Are the words good enough, or must there be intention behind them?

I don't think that words are enough - if the mouth is involved, but the heart isn't, then there isn't a real decision there. Also, faith without works is dead. While I don't believe that works will save you in any way shape or form, after one is saved, there should be evidence of their salvation in their daily life - you should see Christ through their life - and through their works.

Thank you everyone for your patience. I'm really just trying to see where our differences lie, and am trying to understand your beliefs better.
Carrie

Forgive me for not responding to everything - I'll return and respond more in depth You are also more than welcome to PM me anytime!

 

[SumTinWong]

Here are my questions:
1) Is baptism the beginning of the Christian life for a Baptist?
2) What happens to a person who dies before baptism?
3) Are baptism and being "born again" considered two different things?
4) How is one "born again?" Professing Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior?
5) What happens to a person who dies before being "born again?"

1) Depends on whom you talk to. Some believe it is just pomp and ceremony, and others like myself believe it is an act of obedience. Burying your old self and putting on Christ. John 3:5 "Jesus answered, Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless a man is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

2) It depends. Have they confessed with their mouth that Jesus is Lord? They are saved. If they haven't... see answer 5.

3) Yes. Actually "born again" is mistranslated it should be born from above, but anyway, we are (according to Acts 16:31 "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved") saved when we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. As an outward showing, of our faith, we get baptized.

4) Actually it is just as easy as that. Read Acts 16:30-31. Paul was asked what can I do to be saved? Now living the Christian live requires faith, and faith produces wiorks, because if it doesn't it is dead.

5) I will leave that one to God, but the prospects are not good considering: John 3:3 "Jesus answered and said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless a man is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

 

[theseed]

Baptism, imho, seems to play a bigger role in Baptist Churches then it does in others, because the whole congregation witnesses it--wether it be in a tub, pool, or in the river. It is a celebration because it testifies that someone believes in The Lord.

So, it is a symbol, but it is a powerfu symbol, and should not be under estimated.