baptism a symbol?

[mikedsjr]

As I've stated, since I'm fairly new to Christianforums, I am a lifelong Baptist, still belong to a Baptist church, but listening to Lutheran podcasts have caused me to relook at the Baptist faith with more inspection at certain aspects.

The Baptist official statement, at least SBC, is

Christian baptism is the immersion of a believer in water in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It is an act of obedience symbolizing the believer's faith in a crucified, buried, and risen Saviour, the believer's death to sin, the burial of the old life, and the resurrection to walk in newness of life in Christ Jesus. It is a testimony to his faith in the final resurrection of the dead. Being a church ordinance, it is prerequisite to the privileges of church membership and to the Lord's Supper.

Where in Scripture does the denomination find baptism is a symbol? I've read the verses they gave and none allude to a symbol. Why do Baptist state it is?

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

Where in Scripture does the denomination find baptism is a symbol? I've read the verses they gave and none allude to a symbol. Why do Baptist state it is?

A symbol is an act or object which serves to convey meaning. Unless the physical act of immersion has some kind of mechanical effect toward redemption, it must be a symbol. Otherwise, everyone who takes a bath has been baptized. The immersion, itself, is not the object, but it's the meaning behind the immersion that makes it inherently a symbol.

 

[Hentenza]

As I've stated, since I'm fairly new to Christianforums, I am a lifelong Baptist, still belong to a Baptist church, but listening to Lutheran podcasts have caused me to relook at the Baptist faith with more inspection at certain aspects.

The Baptist official statement, at least SBC, is




Where in Scripture does the denomination find baptism is a symbol? I've read the verses they gave and none allude to a symbol. Why do Baptist state it is?

Its a bit more than merely a symbol. Baptism is a testimony. Baptism is obedience. However, Baptism does not regenerate. Baptism does not save. Baptism does not impart grace. Baptism is a work that Christians do from the love of Christ that has already been imparted. After all, who would seek Baptism that has not already has Christ as his/her Lord and Savior?

 

[mikedsjr]

Thanks Hentenza for the response. If what you say is true, I'm good with that. I just seek an answer demonstrating that from Scripture.

Here are the verses the SBC Faith and Message give for Baptism. I removed the verses dealing with the Lord's Supper because they tied both together.
Matthew 3:13-17; 28:19-20; Mark 1:9-11; Luke 3:21-22; John 3:23; Acts 2:41-42; 8:35-39; 16:30-33; Romans 6:3-5; Colossians 2:12.

I don't see any of these reflect baptism is symbolic.

 

[mikedsjr]

Or another way to ask it in a subjective way: When did you know you were saved? What happened to make this known to you?

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

I don't see any of these reflect baptism is symbolic.

Which is to say that you think that the physical act of immersion, apart from any meaning the participant gives it, even if he doesn't consider it a baptism, serves the purpose of baptism. Symbolism is such a human thing. We use it so often that most people don't even realize how immersed they are in it. The entire Bible is a collection of symbols. Take out the symbolism, and it's just a stack of papers with ink tracings. This post is a series of symbols. A painting of a landscape is a symbol, an unrelated object meant to convey the idea of something else. So, again, I'm going to tell you that unless you think the physical act of immersion equates to baptism even if the participant doesn't mean for it to be so, then the act of baptism is necessarily a symbol. Yes, it is a symbol.

 

[Hentenza]

Thanks Hentenza for the response. If what you say is true, I'm good with that. I just seek an answer demonstrating that from Scripture.

Here are the verses the SBC Faith and Message give for Baptism. I removed the verses dealing with the Lord's Supper because they tied both together.
Matthew 3:13-17; 28:19-20; Mark 1:9-11; Luke 3:21-22; John 3:23; Acts 2:41-42; 8:35-39; 16:30-33; Romans 6:3-5; Colossians 2:12.

I don't see any of these reflect baptism is symbolic.

Ok, lets look at each one of the passages.

1. Matt. 3:13-17
13 Then Jesus *arrived from Galilee at the Jordan coming to John, to be baptized by him. 14 But John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I have need to be baptized by You, and do You come to me?” 15 But Jesus answering said to him, “Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he *permitted Him. 16 After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and [i]he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and [j]lighting on Him, 17 and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, “This is [k]My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.”


Jesus is the Son of God, deity, and the second Godhead. As John tells us in John 1 (in addition to other verses in Philippians and Hebrews), God (Jesus) became flesh so God, the Father, was already well pleased with His Son. Jesus Baptism did not result in His indwelling by the Holy Spirit because Jesus is deity . Secondly, Jesus Baptism did not result in God, the Father, proclamation but the proclamation is what God the Father already knows. The proclamation is for our sake (and for those physically present during Jesus Baptism). Baptism did not regenerate Jesus nor did it make Jesus a believer nor did it caused Jesus to be indwelled by the Holy Spirit. This is Jesus (and God the Father) testimony of who Jesus really is. This action ushered Jesus public ministry. Jesus Baptism became the testimony of God about who Jesus is just as our Baptism today testifies to who Jesus is. How better than to usher Jesus ministry that by the Father Himself?



2. Matt. 28:19-20

19 [e]Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you [f]always, even to the end of the age.”


Notice that Jesus did not commission His disciples to make believers. He commissioned them to make disciples of all nations. One must be a believer in order to become a disciple since one cannot become a disciple and then a believer. Once again, the Baptism comes after the conversion. Secondly, the actions that He commands his disciples to do is 1. to Baptize them, which brings them into the earthly church, and 2. to teach them. This is consistent with what we do in the SBC.



3. Mark 1:9-11


9 In those days Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. 10 Immediately coming up out of the water, He saw the heavens [g]opening, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon Him; 11 and a voice came out of the heavens: “You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased.”


This is a parallel passage of Matt. 3:13-17. Same explanation as above.



4. Luke 3:21-22


21 Now when all the people were baptized, Jesus was also baptized, and while He was praying, heaven was opened, 22 and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came out of heaven, “You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased.”



This is a parallel passage of Matt. 3:13-17 and Mark 1:9-11. Same explanation as above.

5. John 3:23- We need to look at the context for this verse so I'm going to post verses 22-36.

22 After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He was spending time with them and baptizing. 23 John also was baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there; and people were coming and were being baptized— 24 for John had not yet been thrown into prison.
25 Therefore there arose a discussion on the part of John’s disciples with a Jew about purification. 26 And they came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, He who was with you beyond the Jordan, to whom you have testified, behold, He is baptizing and all are coming to Him.” 27 John answered and said, “A man can receive nothing unless it has been given him from heaven. 28 You yourselves [g]are my witnesses that I said, ‘I am not the [h]Christ,’ but, ‘I have been sent ahead of Him.’ 29 He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice. So this joy of mine has been made full. 30 He must increase, but I must decrease.
31 “He who comes from above is above all, he who is of the earth is from the earth and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all. 32 What He has seen and heard, of that He testifies; and no one receives His testimony. 33 He who has received His testimony has set his seal to this, that God is true. 34 For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God; [i]for He gives the Spirit without measure. 35 The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand. 36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not [j]obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Many people were being baptized, including Jews that remained Jews. Remember that the Jews also Baptized with water for purification (see this link on Jewish Baptism from the Jewish Encyclopedia). John the Baptism baptizing at this location, in addition to the Jordan river, led to a discussion with the Jewish Rabbis regarding the purification "powers" of Baptism. If you notice, John's answer to the Rabbi is not about Baptism but about faith in Christ. Verse 29 shows exactly the testimony nature of Baptism. Verse 33 and 34 explains the nature of Faith and regeneration. Verse 36 explains the need of faith. If Baptism regenerates and is necessary for salvation, then John would have made that explicit here. Instead, John emphasizes the need for faith in the testimony of the Son.

6. Acts 2:41-42
41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand [an]souls. 42 They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and [ao]to prayer.

This is the church's statement of purpose. See the sequence: 1. receive the word (have faith), and 2. be Baptized. Once both of these happened, then they dedicated themselves to teaching, learning, fellowship, and talking communion which is what church is about.

7. Acts 8:35-39

35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him. 36 As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch *said, “Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?” 37 [[m]And Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”] 38 And he ordered the [n]chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him. 39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away; and the eunuch no longer saw him, [o]but went on his way rejoicing.

Again, look at the sequence: 1. Philip preached the Gospel and the eunuch believed with all his heart, and 2. the eunuch was Baptized. Faith, once again, preceded Baptism. Regeneration precedes Baptism.

8. Acts 16:30-33
30 and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32 And they spoke the word of [n]the Lord to him together with all who were in his house. 33 And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household.

Again, look at the sequence: in order to be saved on has to believe in the Lord Jesus. This would have been a perfect place to state that Baptism was regenerative and required for salvation but what we read is that faith came first which led to Baptism. The jailer was Baptized because of his faith. In other words, faith was the cause of his Baptism.

9. Romans 6:3-5
3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become [a]united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be [b]in the likeness of His resurrection,

The SBC statement that you posted in your OP is: Christian baptism is the immersion of a believer in water in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It is an act of obedience symbolizing the believer's faith in a crucified, buried, and risen Saviour, the believer's death to sin, the burial of the old life, and the resurrection to walk in newness of life in Christ Jesus. It is a testimony to his faith in the final resurrection of the dead. Being a church ordinance, it is prerequisite to the privileges of church membership and to the Lord's Supper.

The long middle sentence in this statement is almost a word for word of Romans 6:3-5.

10. Col. 2:12

12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

Same as above.

I hope this helps.

 

[Hentenza]

Or another way to ask it in a subjective way: When did you know you were saved? What happened to make this known to you?

1. The moment God called me into His fold.
2. God called me into His fold.

I know they are the same so I'm not trying to be coy. Justification is one time event and the time when we both know that we are saved and the cause of why we are saved. Everything else proceeds from this point, including Baptism.

 

[mikedsjr]

A symbol is an act or object which serves to convey meaning. Unless the physical act of immersion has some kind of mechanical effect toward redemption, it must be a symbol. Otherwise, everyone who takes a bath has been baptized. The immersion, itself, is not the object, but it's the meaning behind the immersion that makes it inherently a symbol.

Scripture does just say immerse people in water. Matthew 28 says to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. So that would be my reply. It's a bath if the baptism isn't done in the name of the Triune God.

 

[AgapeBible]

I grew up in a Baptist church. i got saved when I was 4 years young and baptized when I was 7years young. I knew what it meant to be a Christian, to be saved. Some people in the church were worried because I was so young. I remember the baptismal font seeming deep because I was little.

 

[mikedsjr]

Hentenza, sorry to take so long responding. It's been busy at work.

So if your witnessing to a person and they say, "i agree to all this you say is true", then your going to say they are saved? Nothing more?

Matthew 3 and the other corresponding verses, i would say as well as some others, John's baptism was not a salvific baptism at all, but Jesus baptism was a "priestly" baptism to his ministry of reconciliation of man.

In Matthew 28, Acts 2, etc.: I still feel a disconnect happening. If baptism is symbolic, which Scripture never says it is anywhere, then isn't a symbolic gesture just a "look at me!"? The verses never allude to symbolism at all. If you were explaining the same verses as Phillip did to a lost person seeking to understand this, would the first thing out of their mouth be, "there is some water over there, what keeps me from being baptized?" Are you just going to stop what your doing and baptize or are you going to begin making sure he has faith? The SBC F&M doesnt prove any symbolism as if rationalism is playing a part.

 

[JM]

• BAPTISM: A PROFESSION OF THE FAITH OF THE GOSPEL

• Baptism, A Divine Command to be Observed.
• Baptism, A Public Ordinance of Divine Worship.
• The Ancient Mode of Baptizing by Immersion, Plunging, or Dipping into Water, Maintained and Vindicated.
• A Defence of a Book entitled, The Ancient Mode of Baptizing by Immersion, Plunging, or Dipping into Water, &c.
• The Divine Right of Infant-Baptism, Examined and Disproved.
• The Argument From Apostolic Tradition, In Favor of Infant-Baptism, Considered.
• An Essay on Scripture Baptism . . . Infant-Baptism is Destitute of Proof . . . To which is prefixed an address to Micaiah Towgood.
• An Answer To A Welsh Clergyman's Twenty Arguments in Favor of Infant-Baptism.
• Antipedobaptism; or Infant-Baptism, an Innovation.
• A Reply to a Book, entitled, A Defense of the Divine Right of Infant-Baptism.
• Some Strictures on a late Treatise, called, A Fair and Rational Vindication of the Right of Infants to the Ordinance of Baptism.
• Infant Baptism: A Part and Pillar of Popery
• A Dissertation concerning the Baptism of Jewish Proselytes.

 

[JM]

From Hercules Collins "An Orthodox Catechism" (17th century Baptist)

Baptism

Lesson 26

Q. 69 What is Baptism?

A. Immersion or dipping of the Person in Water in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, by such who are duly qualified by Christ.1
1Mat. 3.16. John 3.23. Acts 8.38, 39. Rom. 6.4.
Q. 70 Who are the proper Subjects of this Ordinance?

A. Those who do actually profess Repentance towards God, Faith in, and Obedience to our Lord Jesus Christ.1
1Acts 2.38. Acts 8.36, 37.
Q. 71 Should infants, too, be baptized?

A. No, for we have neither Precept nor Example for that Practice in all the Book of God.
Q. 72 Does the Scriptures forbid the Baptism of Infants?

A. It is sufficient that the Divine Oracles commands the baptizing of Believers, unless we will make ourselves wiser than what is written. Nadab and Abihu were not forbidden to offer strange Fire, yet for doing so they incurred God’s Wrath, because they were commanded to take Fire from the Altar.!
1Mat. 28.18, 19. Mark 16.16. Lev 9.24. 10.16.
Q. 73 May not the infant children of believers under the Gospel be baptized since the infant descendants of Abraham were circumcised under the Law?

A. No. Abraham had a command from God to circumcise his infant descendants, but believers have no command to baptize their infant children under the Gospel.1
1Gen. 17.9, 10, 11, 12.
Q. 74 If the infant children of believers are in the Covenant of Grace with their parents, as some say, why may they not be baptized under the Gospel, as well as Abraham’s infant descendants were circumcised under the Law?

A. By the infant children of Believers being in the Covenant of Grace, it must either be meant of the Covenant of Grace absolutely considered, and if so, then there can be no total and final falling away of any infant children of believers from the Covenant, but all must be saved.1
1Jer. 32.38, 39, 40. Joh. 10.28.
Or, 2. They must mean conditionally, on consideration that when they come to an age of maturity, they by true faith, love, and holiness of life, taking hold of God’s Covenant of Grace, shall have the privileges of it. This being their sense, I then ask what real spiritual privilege the infant children of believers have more than the infant children of unbelievers, if they live also to years of maturity, and by true faith and love take hold God’s Covenant? I further demand, whether the Seal of the Covenant does not belong as much to the children of unbelievers as to the children of believers? and more too, since some infant children of unbelievers take hold of God’s Covenant, and some infant children of believers do not2; as this often occurs to the sorrow of many godly parents.
2 Isa. 56.3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. Acts 10.34, 35. John 3.16.
3. Suppose all the infant children of believers are absolutely in the Covenant of Grace; believers under the Gospel should not baptize their infant children any more than Lot had warrant to circumcise himself or his infant children, although he was closely related to Abraham, a believer, and in the Covenant of Grace too: since circumcision was limited to Abraham and to his family. Also by the same rule we should bring infants to the Lord’s Table, since the same qualifications are3 required for the proper administration of Baptism as for the Lord’s Supper.
3 Acts 2.41, 42.
4. We must know the covenant made with Abraham had two parts: first, a spiritual, which consisted in God’s promising to be a God to4 Abraham, and5 all his spiritual descendants in a particular manner, whether they were circumcised or uncircumcised, who believed as Abraham the Father of the Faithful did. This was signified by God’s accepting them as his people who were not descended6 from Abraham, but through Jesus Christ, the Gentiles, the uncircumcised who believed, should have their faith counted for Righteousness, as Abraham’s was before he was circumcised.7
4Gen. 17.19, 21. Gen. 21.10. Gal. 4.30.
5Acts 2.39. Rom. 9.7, 8, &c.
6Gal. 3.16, 28, 29.
7Rom. 4.9-14.
5. This promise consisted of temporal good: so God promised Abraham’s Seed should enjoy the8 land of Canaan, and have plenty of outward blessings, and sealed this promise by circumcision. It was also a distinguishing character of the Jews being God’s people from all the Nations of the Gentiles, who were not yet the spiritual descendants of Abraham: but when the Gentiles came to believe, and by faith became the people of God as well as the Jews, then9 Circumcision, that distinguishing mark, ceased. The character of being the children of God now is faith in Christ and circumcision of the Heart. Whatever reason may be given for the Infants of Believers to be Baptized first, as their being the children of believers; or secondly, their being in the Covenant; or thirdly, that the infant descendants of Abraham a believer, were circumcised; all this you see avails nothing: for circumcision was limited to the family of Abraham and all others, though believers, were excluded. It was also limited to a particular day, the eighth day, and what ever reason might be given, it was not to be done before or after. It was limited to male and did not include female; if Baptism came in the place of circumcision, and is the seal of the Covenant under the Gospel as circumcision was under the Law, none but the males must be baptized, because none but the Males were Circumcised. But as the Law regulated circumcision, now the Gospel regulates Baptism, and it depends purely upon the will of the Law-giver, at what periods of time, upon what Persons and terms Baptism is to be administered. We will do well, then, to heed what is declared in Scripture, especially Acts 3.22.
8Gen. 15.18. Gen. 17.8, 9, 10, 11. Gen. 12.6, 7. Gen. 13.15, 16, 17. Gen. 15.16.
9John 1.12. Rom. 2.28, 29. Phil. 3.3. Gal. 3.26, 27, 28.






Lesson 27

Q. 75 How does baptism remind you and assure you that Christ’s one sacrifice on the cross is for you personally?

A. In this way: Christ instituted this outward washing1 and with it gave the promise that, as surely as water washes away the dirt from the body, so certainly his blood and his Spirit wash away my soul’s impurity, in other words, all my sins.2

1Acts 2:38
2Matt. 3:11; Rom. 6:3-10; 1 Pet. 3:21

Q. 76 What does it mean to be washed with Christ’s blood and Spirit?

A. To be washed with Christ’s blood means that God, by grace, has forgiven my sins because of Christ’s blood poured out for me in his sacrifice on the cross.1 To be washed with Christ’s Spirit means that the Holy Spirit has renewed me and set me apart to be a member of Christ so that more and more I become dead to sin and increasingly live a holy and blameless life.2

1Zech. 13:1; Eph. 1:7-8; Heb. 12:24; 1 Pet. 1:2; Rev. 1:5
2Ezek. 36:25-27; John 3:5-8; Rom. 6:4; 1 Cor. 6:11; Col. 2:11-12

Q. 77 Where does Christ promise that we are washed with his blood and Spirit as surely as we are washed with the water of baptism?

A. In the institution of baptism where he says: “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”1 “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.”2* This promise is repeated when Scripture calls baptism the washing of rebirth3 and the washing away of sins.4

1Matt. 28:19
2Mark 16:16
3Tit. 3:5
4Acts 22:16
*Earlier and better manuscripts of Mark 16 omit the words “Whoever believes and is baptized . . . condemned.”


Lesson 28

Q. 78 Does this outward washing with water itself wash away sins?

A. No, only Jesus Christ’s blood and the Holy Spirit cleanse us from all sins.1

1Matt. 3:11; 1 Pet. 3:21; 1 John 1:7

Q. 79 Why then does the Holy Spirit call baptism the washing of rebirth and the washing away of sins?

A. God has good reason for these words. He wants to teach us that the blood and Spirit of Christ wash away our sins just as water washes away dirt from our bodies.1 But more important, he wants to assure us, by this divine pledge and sign, that the washing away of our sins spiritually is as real as physical washing with water.2

11 Cor. 6:11; Rev. 1:5; 7:14
2Acts 2:38; Rom. 6:3-4; Gal. 3:27

 

[Avid]

A symbol is an act or object which serves to convey meaning...

... So if your witnessing to a person and they say, "i agree to all this you say is true", then your going to say they are saved? Nothing more?

--- etc.---

In Matthew 28, Acts 2, etc.: I still feel a disconnect happening. If baptism is symbolic, which Scripture never says it is anywhere, then isn't a symbolic gesture just a "look at me!"? ...

I'll try to put this plainly and simply. I don't intend to give a long answer...

We may say that Baptism shows outwardly what has already happened inwardly. I must agree that there is no indication that this is a symbol, so its meaning is more than that. This is an outward profession to the world of the work of God in the heart. When Jesus Christ sits as Judge of the world, He will deny anyone who refused to publicly acknowledge Him through baptism in His name.

Matthew 10
32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
​

Also, there may have been a time when someone was not able to get baptized for various reasons, and died without having this done. Hence, we have a unique thing in scripture that is written by the Apostle Paul.

In those days, one may expect Baptism to be accepting a death sentence from worldly religion and/or government. It is not like today when many, if not most, Churches who hold to the sound doctrine of baptism by immersion have a facility for this in their building. The first few centuries of the Church were very different, and it is not clear exactly what the availability of Baptism was. If someone died before getting to follow the LORD in this requirement, there may be a proper place for what we read here.

I Corinthians 15
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
​

Hope this helps.
.

 

[mikedsjr]

Avid, it certainly helps more to converse.

I'm certainly not denying its by faith. Everyone has access to water or they will die, but certainly not everyone has access to a body of water for immersion. My brother has been to places where they baptized in a tarp and if authorities came through they put the kids in to play in the water. I'm not saying a no baptized person can't be saved, based on what Scripture, but a attitude of, "I said a prayer, I don't need baptism" won't save. In a sense, from what I gather from Scripture, baptism does save.

Im not sure whether this is considered an outward confession of faith either. Scripture doesn't elude to this either. Matthew 10 doesn't tie itself to baptism, but certainly a possible alluding to baptism. I'm not sure its a best fit to prove such.

One other thing, I'm not asking in a way condemning Baptist baptism because of the symbolic reference. Calling it symbolic, or even God mysteriously in the water for our salvation(Yes, this is my current stance based on Scripture and I now how infants should be baptized since they are born with original sin), changes what happens. Salvation.

 

[DeaconDean]

Avid, it certainly helps more to converse.

I'm certainly not denying its by faith. Everyone has access to water or they will die, but certainly not everyone has access to a body of water for immersion. My brother has been to places where they baptized in a tarp and if authorities came through they put the kids in to play in the water. I'm not saying a no baptized person can't be saved, based on what Scripture, but a attitude of, "I said a prayer, I don't need baptism" won't save. In a sense, from what I gather from Scripture, baptism does save.

Im not sure whether this is considered an outward confession of faith either. Scripture doesn't elude to this either. Matthew 10 doesn't tie itself to baptism, but certainly a possible alluding to baptism. I'm not sure its a best fit to prove such.

One other thing, I'm not asking in a way condemning Baptist baptism because of the symbolic reference. Calling it symbolic, or even God mysteriously in the water for our salvation(Yes, this is my current stance based on Scripture and I now how infants should be baptized since they are born with original sin), changes what happens. Salvation.

To a certain degree, it is "symbolic".

Read Romans 6.

" Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." -Rom. 6:3-4 (KJV)

Were you actually there in AD 33 when Jesus died and died with Him?

Were you actually there in AD 33 when He arose from the dead and arose with Him?

Baptism is symbolic in that even though we were not there almost 2000 years ago, baptism by immersion is "symbolic" in that when He died, we died with Him. When He was buried, we were buried with Him. And when He arose, we arose with Him.

John Leland Dagg, considered to the very first "Baptist" theologian in America wrote:

In the New Testament, a connection appears, between the remission of sins and the ordinance of baptism. John preached the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;44 and Ananias commanded Saul, "Arise, and be baptised, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."45 In the Old Testament, a similar connection appears, between remission and the sacrifices of that dispensation. "Almost all things were by the law purged with blood, and without the shedding of blood is no remission."46 Yet Paul has taught us that the blood of bulls and goats cannot take away sin;47 that these offerings were only figures of things to come; and that the only effectual removal of sin is by the blood of Christ. Baptism under the gospel, is as truly a figure, as the sacrifices were under the law. In the ceremonies instituted by Moses, the death of Christ was prefigured by the death of the slaughtered victims; and in the gospel ceremony, the burial and resurrection of Christ are figured forth in the ordinance of baptism: and in both cases, the remission connected with the ceremony is merely figurative. Our sins are washed away in baptism, in the same sense in which we eat the body and brink the blood of Christ, in the ordinance of the Lord's supper.48 Baptism and the Lord's supper are duties to be performed under the gospel dispensation; as the various ceremonies instituted by Moses, were duties under the former dispensation; but the figures ought not, in either case, to be confounded with the things which they represent. In a figure, baptism washes away sin: in reality, "The blood of Jesus Christ cleanses from all sin." We must be careful not to rely on the figure, instead of the reality which it represents.

Manual of Theology, John L. Dagg, Book Seventh, Doctrine Concerning Divine Grace, Section I, Pardon

When speaking of Baptism, there is also a chapter devoted by Dagg in Manual of Chruch Order, dedicated to Baptist theology around 1850ish on just this very thing.

Link

Oh well, before the bashinh of me starts, I'm outta here.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Samuel_Rigby]

By questioning whether baptism is symbolic or not, are you asking if baptism is necessary for salvation?

Every time this question comes up I ask, "Can you explain to me how--if baptism is necessary for salvation--it does not then become a "work" explicitly addressed in Ephesians 2:8-9 which says that salvation is "not by works, lest any man should boast."

I have yet to get a satisfactory answer.

So is that the question you are asking?

 

[mikedsjr]

DeaconDean,

Thanks for the reply. I think I can see where your stance comes from, given the wording of Romans 6:3-4. It seems your focus is on the "like", am I correct? If so, why not the very first part of this verse? The very beginning doesn't appear to support baptism is symbolic.

You also asked,
"Were you actually there in AD 33 when Jesus died and died with Him?"
and,
"Were you actually there in AD 33 when He arose from the dead and arose with Him?"
Yes. Romans 6 says I am buried with him in his death by baptism.

The issue I have with your answer is you have included the term "symbolic" without any demonstrative proof the Scripture is intending the word "symbolic" to be used.

 

[mikedsjr]

By questioning whether baptism is symbolic or not, are you asking if baptism is necessary for salvation?

Every time this question comes up I ask, "Can you explain to me how--if baptism is necessary for salvation--it does not then become a "work" explicitly addressed in Ephesians 2:8-9 which says that salvation is "not by works, lest any man should boast."

I have yet to get a satisfactory answer.

So is that the question you are asking?

I'm not specifically questioning whether baptism is necessary. I do believe its necessary for salvation. For now, I'll just say the following is my opinion since I'm not fully fleshed out Scripturally:

I'm not sure how a person can claim they are actually do a work of their own in baptism. There is nothing in baptism that is a work of the individual being baptized. Sure the accented to being baptized, but the work is being done by God through the water. God is working in the water to make them new. If God is not in the water making them new in Christ, then its just a dunking bath. That's it. If the baptism isn't done in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, then its just a dunking bath. The baptism is what a person can point to and realize Christ has set them free and given them eternal life.

There are many things a person can childishly believe and be saved, because they weren't mature in their faith. They could certainly believe childishly their baptism was a work, but its a childish thought.

 

[Samuel_Rigby]

I'm not specifically questioning whether baptism is necessary. I do believe its necessary for salvation. For now, I'll just say the following is my opinion since I'm not fully fleshed out Scripturally:

I'm not sure how a person can claim they are actually do a work of their own in baptism. There is nothing in baptism that is a work of the individual being baptized. Sure the accented to being baptized, but the work is being done by God through the water. God is working in the water to make them new. If God is not in the water making them new in Christ, then its just a dunking bath. That's it. If the baptism isn't done in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, then its just a dunking bath. The baptism is what a person can point to and realize Christ has set them free and given them eternal life.

There are many things a person can childishly believe and be saved, because they weren't mature in their faith. They could certainly believe childishly their baptism was a work, but its a childish thought.

What is childish is when you begin using words like "childish" to characterize someone's position when by your own admission you have no scriptural proof to support your belief and readily admit it is your own opinion.

Sorry, I thought I was talking to a person with some maturity. My mistake.