Baker Nailed Them!

[arizona_sunshine]

.....right after, of course, I give the preliminary accounting to my bishop.

I will refer you to my post #27, where I addressed this issue:

A member judges his/her own worthiness for temple attendance. Questions posited are for self evaluation. While the Bishop & Stake President are present, every member of the church should understand that the 'worthiness' interviews are between: themselves as potential temple attenders & the Lord.

Regardless, however, these temple interviews are not exactly comparable to 'Judgement Day,' which is where 'worthiness' will be judged perfectly, mercifully and justly by God.


Interviews, whether they be for temple attendance, tithing settlement, the repentance process... are meant to help the member in their journey, not as an ego boost or power trip for a leader. A bishop is called to serve just as much, if not more, than to lead.

 

[arizona_sunshine]

.....right after, of course, I give the preliminary accounting to my bishop.

In addition, I believe, there will be plenty of people gaining entrance to Celestial Glory who have never given a 'preliminary accounting' to a bishop of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

 

[baker]

In addition, I believe, there will be plenty of people gaining entrance to Celestial Glory who have never given a 'preliminary accounting' to a bishop of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

But do you believe that such admittance will be "conditioned" upon them sustaining J. Smith as a prophet or will their acceptance of Christ alone allow this gift of glory?

 

[arizona_sunshine]

But do you believe that such admittance will be "conditioned" upon them sustaining J. Smith as a prophet or will their acceptance of Christ alone allow this gift of glory?

I believe that all servants whom the Lord has called will be sustained by those who gain entrance to Celestial Glory. But it wont really be a 'prerequisate' or a 'condition' as those who accept Christ will happily accept those whom he has called.

Fallacy: False Dilemma


Also Known as: Black & White Thinking.

Description of False Dilemma
A False Dilemma is a fallacy in which a person uses the following pattern of "reasoning":


Either claim X is true or claim Y is true (when X and Y could both be false).
Claim Y is false.
Therefore claim X is true.
This line of "reasoning" is fallacious because if both claims could be false, then it cannot be inferred that one is true because the other is false. .

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

 

[spike]

.....right after, of course, I give the preliminary accounting to my bishop.

baker~

This continual preoccupation of yours with 'temple admittance' is fascinating.

I believe that you do know that if you truly wanted to, you could enter a Temple under false pretenses. You could be a member of the LDS Church, and violate the Word of Wisdom, and answer in the 'required' way to all of the questions asked by the Bishop to reflect the 'correct' answers, and be given your recommend. Then what?

What have you accomplished?

Now, with regards to your own faith, what do you feel you must do to be accepted in the eyes of God? Does it have anything to do with access to an LDS Temple? If not, why would you argue for the right to be within one, when your faith can be practised outside of it?

If others choose to be accountable in a different (not better, not worse, just different) way to their faith and Christ, why do you argue for the claim that they cannot be allowed to do so? The tired argument of 'faith vs. works' aside, must all men worship or pray in exactly the same way?

I really have no need to step within a Buddhist Temple to exercise my faith in Christ. Nor do I care that the option is available to me. Although I have a deep respect for that religion, it isn't what I am, and I'm OK with that. I'll bet that they don't care a whit about the 'exclusivity' of Mormon Temples, either, because they are secure in their faith and see no need to attack others in a misguided quest for equality of 'worhip method'.

Ultimately, as Sunshine has stated, the bishop is not here to judge your worthiness in God's eyes.. you can say what you will, and you're in.. but then you are accountable to God. Ultimately, we all are. All LDS know this. Temple Recommends deal with our behavior and worthiness in the temporal sense. And, as just noted, the only two people ultimately sure of what your life is all about are yourself and God.

Secondly, the premise put forth by GodsWordisTrue in the original post is foolishly adolescent, as in 'which rock group do you like best'.. the idea that only one group (answer) can be given credence.. the idea that believing someone or something in addition to Christ 'replaces' a belief in Christ. Under this incredibly faulty premise, every Christian on this board is guilty of the same 'crime' as long as they profess a belief in Adam & Eve, Noah, Moses,.. the Creed.. etc, etc.

Now, if you didn't believe in Joseph Smith, why would you want to set foot in a Temple anyway? Wouldn't you see it as irrelevent at best, and evil at worst? Conversely, why should any church guarantee admission to all parts of its house of worship to people that openly hold that religion in disdain?

Lastly... Do you believe that GWiT's premise is valid and should be allowed to stand with your implicit approval?

 

[baker]

baker~

This continual preoccupation of yours with 'temple admittance' is fascinating.

I believe that you do know that if you truly wanted to, you could enter a Temple under false pretenses. You could be a member of the LDS Church, and violate the Word of Wisdom, and answer in the 'required' way to all of the questions asked by the Bishop to reflect the 'correct' answers, and be given your recommend. Then what?

What have you accomplished?

Now, with regards to your own faith, what do you feel you must do to be accepted in the eyes of God? Does it have anything to do with access to an LDS Temple? If not, why would you argue for the right to be within one, when your faith can be practised outside of it?

If others choose to be accountable in a different (not better, not worse, just different) way to their faith and Christ, why do you argue for the claim that they cannot be allowed to do so? The tired argument of 'faith vs. works' aside, must all men worship or pray in exactly the same way?

I really have no need to step within a Buddhist Temple to exercise my faith in Christ. Nor do I care that the option is available to me. Although I have a deep respect for that religion, it isn't what I am, and I'm OK with that. I'll bet that they don't care a whit about the 'exclusivity' of Mormon Temples, either, because they are secure in their faith and see no need to attack others in a misguided quest for equality of 'worhip method'.

Ultimately, as Sunshine has stated, the bishop is not here to judge your worthiness in God's eyes.. you can say what you will, and you're in.. but then you are accountable to God. Ultimately, we all are. All LDS know this. Temple Recommends deal with our behavior and worthiness in the temporal sense. And, as just noted, the only two people ultimately sure of what your life is all about are yourself and God.

Secondly, the premise put forth by GodsWordisTrue in the original post is foolishly adolescent, as in 'which rock group do you like best'.. the idea that only one group (answer) can be given credence.. the idea that believing someone or something in addition to Christ 'replaces' a belief in Christ. Under this incredibly faulty premise, every Christian on this board is guilty of the same 'crime' as long as they profess a belief in Adam & Eve, Noah, Moses,.. the Creed.. etc, etc.

Now, if you didn't believe in Joseph Smith, why would you want to set foot in a Temple anyway? Wouldn't you see it as irrelevent at best, and evil at worst? Conversely, why should any church guarantee admission to all parts of its house of worship to people that openly hold that religion in disdain?

Lastly... Do you believe that GWiT's premise is valid and should be allowed to stand with your implicit approval?

Spike,

I would love to discuss this with you or any other lds posters from a "cradle to grave" perspective withing the confines of christian doctrine and the history of your church. Would you like to set up a separate thread to do so?

Your comments are very inspiring form an emotional perspective but I am confident that if you take the time to analyze your statements under the parameters in my previous paragraph, you, as other lds posters have demonstrated, will probably want to abandone the thread. Why? Because I believe and can demonstrate the claims of temple requirements of lds teachings will not stand up to christian doctrine or the factual history of your church. I know this from having these conversations with lds in person.

If you or any other lds posters believe I am not properly informed or being realistic, set up a separate thread. I would welcome the open dialogue and detailed analysis.

You and your church claim it is a requirement of god so I would trust that this would be something you and the other lds posters would like to demonstrate.

I will await for one of you to do this if I am wrong.

 

[twhite982]

Spike,

I would love to discuss this with you or any other lds posters from a "cradle to grave" perspective withing the confines of christian doctrine and the history of your church. Would you like to set up a separate thread to do so?

...

If you or any other lds posters believe I am not properly informed or being realistic, set up a separate thread. I would welcome the open dialogue and detailed analysis.

You and your church claim it is a requirement of god so I would trust that this would be something you and the other lds posters would like to demonstrate.

I will await for one of you to do this if I am wrong.

Baker,

I know the temple is one of your favorite pet peeves.

I've discussed with you on countless occassions items regarding the temple from the requirement to build them to "eternal marriage".

What exactly are you looking for with this?

Do you want the LDS to show the requirement for building the temple, ordinances, requirements for entrance, etc... and that they are ALL contained clearly and concisely within the confines of the Bible?

If so, I've also already mentioned numerous times they are NOT there.

The evidence for temples and its ordinances are found within LDS scripture either directly or indirectly.

Can I show you the exact wording you're looking for? No

I honestly don't think ANY LDS poster here will satify you on ANY issue regarding the temple.

In my discussion with you I have found that you've already come to your conclusions and if I try to submit other possibilities or explanations, I am just decieved.

I honestly enjoy having these discussions with you but there needs to be a give and take dialogue, not just the LDS conforming to your intepretation of those events.

I have admitted to you several times on different issues from the perspective of what I know and what you've presented that your intepretation is correct. To my memory I fail to recall you giving any credit to another possible explanation than the conclusion you've already reached.

Again I'd be happy to discuss this with you, but not from such a rigid viewpoint. I fully accept that you believe I'm in a false religion. We have that obstacle out of the way. Lets discuss this openminded as you've asked me to in times past.


Tom

 

[baker]

Baker,

I know the temple is one of your favorite pet peeves.

I've discussed with you on countless occassions items regarding the temple from the requirement to build them to "eternal marriage".

What exactly are you looking for with this?

Do you want the LDS to show the requirement for building the temple, ordinances, requirements for entrance, etc... and that they are ALL contained clearly and concisely within the confines of the Bible?

If so, I've also already mentioned numerous times they are NOT there.

The evidence for temples and its ordinances are found within LDS scripture either directly or indirectly.

Can I show you the exact wording you're looking for? No

I honestly don't think ANY LDS poster here will satify you on ANY issue regarding the temple.

In my discussion with you I have found that you've already come to your conclusions and if I try to submit other possibilities or explanations, I am just decieved.

I honestly enjoy having these discussions with you but there needs to be a give and take dialogue, not just the LDS conforming to your intepretation of those events.

I have admitted to you several times on different issues from the perspective of what I know and what you've presented that your intepretation is correct. To my memory I fail to recall you giving any credit to another possible explanation than the conclusion you've already reached.

Again I'd be happy to discuss this with you, but not from such a rigid viewpoint. I fully accept that you believe I'm in a false religion. We have that obstacle out of the way. Lets discuss this openminded as you've asked me to in times past.


Tom

Twhite,

If you would like, set up a separate thread. I would be more than happy to discuss this with you or any other lds poster. Just don't abandone the conversation once you start it. I won't!!!!

 

[spike]

I would love to discuss this with you or any other lds posters from a "cradle to grave" perspective withing the confines of christian doctrine and the history of your church. Would you like to set up a separate thread to do so?

Baker~

Actually, I have no problem with this sort of thread/discussion, but I fear that, as Tom has stated, it will become bogged down in the 'it's not in the Bible' line of thought that tends to drag these threads into an inconclusive standoff.

I will agree that much of what is discussed per 'Temple requirements' etc., is not in the standard Bible. But, that's the essence of the LDS position, so it is difficult to resolve the issues on that point. For some, the simplest elemental form of Christianity is contained within the 'just believe/saved thru grace' line of thinking, and that's OK for some. I just believe that there's a little more to it than that, and believe that the inclusion of that line of thinking within a larger framework of devotion does not nullify the former, nor incur God's wrath, in quite the way that so many would have me believe.

I don't get much of a chance to peruse the board, so if this thread is started, I might miss it unless notified or pm'ed. I'd be interested in participating, though, to the best that my knowledge allows.

 

[funguy]

And what about "eternal progression?"

What's the flip side of this? Eternal Stagnation? Wouldn't that be Damnation?

 

[gort]

This whole statement above could have been summed up with "I know the church is true, I know that JS was a prophet of God, I know that the only real truth can be found in the LDS church and those who don't want to be LDS are prideful and have hard hearts or can't quit sinning. If people get an answer that "the church" isn't true, it is because they didn't pray hard enough or they weren't sincire enough or they just didn't want to know the truth ".

Never ceases to amaze me that so many LDS people have this perception of non-LDS. It shouldn't amaze me since I was a Mormon at one time but never the less, it still does.

Grace

Hello happy,

It's funny strange how I keep hearing this same thing over and over again. It's a thing that started way back with Joseph Smith himself.

It's that thing about having to ask God if this LDS church is the one true church.

The one true church is not a brick buiding, but a body of believers, whith Christ Jesus as the head of the church. And the church is the Bride.

JS supposedly asked God which of these churches were true.

Why should I have to ask God about a brick building , when God wants me to look at and follow His Son?



<><

 

[unbound]

Why would I want to follow a prophet who cant tell the difference between a holy document and a fraud?

The hand is writing on the wall about Joseph Smith and his escapades. You can choose to ignore the facts about JS being an occultist,diviner,and a freemason, but Im not going to accept a fable propagated by a con-man and adulterer.

LDS reject the kingdom of God for a kingdom of man. Have you ever met your "heavenly granparents"? Since your church teaches God is an exalted man who progressed like us, then he must have parents, too. I wonder if they have increased and are greater than "our" God?

 

[funguy]

Hello happy,

It's funny strange how I keep hearing this same thing over and over again. It's a thing that started way back with Joseph Smith himself.

It's that thing about having to ask God if this LDS church is the one true church.

The one true church is not a brick buiding, but a body of believers, whith Christ Jesus as the head of the church. And the church is the Bride.

JS supposedly asked God which of these churches were true.

Why should I have to ask God about a brick building , when God wants me to look at and follow His Son?



<><

Where did you get this "brick building" idea? How did you get the idea that that is what the LDS church is about unless you are using the 3 little pigs analogy comparing that to the two foolish pigs that built their houses out of sticks and straw.

grace is trying to put words in my mouth. Iwould have never made the statement "I know that the only real truth can be found in the LDS church" and I regard that as a ridiculous statement.

What's grace saying; if your prayers are insincere or if you don't want to really know the truth that it will have no effect on your ability to receive answers to your prayerful questions? Is this what you think?

be good,
funguy

 

[funguy]

Why would I want to follow a prophet who cant tell the difference between a holy document and a fraud?

o.K. let's look at this one at a time. who are you making this charge against and what is your source. have you tried to look at this set of circumstances any other way than you currently do?

The hand is writing on the wall about Joseph Smith and his escapades. You can choose to ignore the facts about JS being an occultist,diviner,and a freemason, but Im not going to accept a fable propagated by a con-man and adulterer.

you have made a number of charges. what's your evidence?

LDS reject the kingdom of God for a kingdom of man. Have you ever met your "heavenly granparents"? Since your church teaches God is an exalted man who progressed like us, then he must have parents, too. I wonder if they have increased and are greater than "our" God?

Good question. First off you know who's image we are created in. (This is not meant to prove anything to you, but to just give you some thinking material.) Do you have children? If you do, how much do you love them and what do you want for them? Don't you want what you have and better? Isn't it our promise that we may become joint heirs with Christ of all that our Father has? Where is the limitation put into that? Aren't we commanded that we are to become perfect even as our Father in heaven is. If you choose mature, it doesn't matter. If you think about it, it's all the same. I could go on, but I don't personally believe in handing everthing to people on a silver platter. All of these charges and questions have been answered a long time ago by better people than me. If you want answers to most of your questions, they 're readily available. If you want to believe something of value is false or otherwise bad, you will also be able to find plenty of people to help you waller around in that too.

 

[unbound]

o.K. let's look at this one at a time. who are you making this charge against and what is your source. have you tried to look at this set of circumstances any other way than you currently do? Its about a white salamander and a prophet of your organization.

you have made a number of charges. what's your evidence?JS wrote in his own hand that he rose to sublime degree in a day(masonry). Its also in History of the Church, which I picked up at a Deseret book store. Many LDS agree that JS used a "peep stone" and we also have public records that show JS was involved in occultic activities, along with statements made by various members who knew him. It goes along very well with the pagan symbols JS used for his temple.( waxing and waning of the moon, pentagrams, beehives, square and compass, sunstones, eye of horus above altar in the temple)

Good question. First off you know who's image we are created in. (This is not meant to prove anything to you, but to just give you some thinking material.) Do you have children? If you do, how much do you love them and what do you want for them? Don't you want what you have and better? Isn't it our promise that we may become joint heirs with Christ of all that our Father has? Where is the limitation put into that? Aren't we commanded that we are to become perfect even as our Father in heaven is. If you choose mature, it doesn't matter. If you think about it, it's all the same. I could go on, but I don't personally believe in handing everthing to people on a silver platter. All of these charges and questions have been answered a long time ago by better people than me. If you want answers to most of your questions, they 're readily available. If you want to believe something of value is false or otherwise bad, you will also be able to find plenty of people to help you waller around in that too.

Our spirit was created in Gods image. Can you describe what that is? .......I would want my children to have what God is offering to them, that is to be a part of His family, which is greater and more valueable than the mortal family we have now. ...I want what God says he will grant me, ...rest in him. I read that we will become joint heirs, not joint gods. It is not the same. Your doctrine offers more questions than answers.( No end to the gods before our god)So you never are really worshipping the ONE true Creator. I dont seewhy this is so difficult to understand the problem with this. But obviously you are comfortable with the idea.

 

[happyinhisgrace]

Hello happy,

It's funny strange how I keep hearing this same thing over and over again. It's a thing that started way back with Joseph Smith himself.

It's that thing about having to ask God if this LDS church is the one true church.

The one true church is not a brick buiding, but a body of believers, whith Christ Jesus as the head of the church. And the church is the Bride.

JS supposedly asked God which of these churches were true.

Why should I have to ask God about a brick building , when God wants me to look at and follow His Son?



<><

Yup

 

[funguy]

Our spirit was created in Gods image. Can you describe what that is? .......I would want my children to have what God is offering to them, that is to be a part of His family, which is greater and more valueable than the mortal family we have now. ...I want what God says he will grant me, ...rest in him. I read that we will become joint heirs, not joint gods. It is not the same. Your doctrine offers more questions than answers.( No end to the gods before our god)So you never are really worshipping the ONE true Creator. I dont seewhy this is so difficult to understand the problem with this. But obviously you are comfortable with the idea.

This is not a bash. I'm not here to do your thinking for you. You don't seem to be aware of just how lame your response is, and it is indicative of a knee jerk reaction instead of one that has involved a great degree of thought. For one you make a number of declarative statements without much backing. For instance, you make it sound like for one reason or another you don't place much importance on your family which, of course, would be unfortunate. I'll try to give you a couple of things to work on to get back to me on.
#1. Tell me, if you know, what is a salamander?

#2. What is satan famous for doing with the truth?

#3. Think about descriptions of Christ. bonus hint

 

[funguy]

due to my experience on another thread which was the last straw, I have decide to leave your company. here is a copy of my final post.

This has degenerated into a complete mass of immaturity. Probably my primary purpose for being here was to disallow free pot shots at the church that arise out of the anti's inconsistencies, innacuracies, imprecision and faulty logic. So I guess when they decide they can't fight you any more by doing things like quoting scriptures from the bible as if we were unaware of them implying they are really applicable, then they can poke fun. The problem is I don't think the normal people who I would be protecting are here at all so all I'm really accomplishing is provideing the antis an opportunity to spew more of their poison. I could be doing a lot more useful and productive things with my time. Hasta la Vista.

funguy

 

[Rescued One]

due to my experience on another thread which was the last straw, I have decide to leave your company. here is a copy of my final post.

This has degenerated into a complete mass of immaturity. Probably my primary purpose for being here was to disallow free pot shots at the church that arise out of the anti's inconsistencies, innacuracies, imprecision and faulty logic. So I guess when they decide they can't fight you any more by doing things like quoting scriptures from the bible as if we were unaware of them implying they are really applicable, then they can poke fun. The problem is I don't think the normal people who I would be protecting are here at all so all I'm really accomplishing is provideing the antis an opportunity to spew more of their poison. I could be doing a lot more useful and productive things with my time. Hasta la Vista.

funguy

I thought you were leaving! Why are you logged on?

 

[SonofYah]