Baker Nailed Them!

[Rescued One]

Baker found the crux of Mormonism is believing in someone other than Jesus Christ. The truth is exposed.

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=1896899

No matter how obedient or how devout a Christian is to Christ, he is less worthy than someone who accepts Joseph Smith. The LDS, who beg to be acknowledged as Christians, scoff at our devotion to Christ. According to Mormonism, we are not as worthy of God's blessings as they are.

Jesus has been replaced.

 

[Dark_Lite]

Well now isn't this some sort of backwards subtle jab guilt trip?

 

[twhite982]

Praise God! Baker found the crux of Mormonism is believing in someone other than Jesus Christ. The truth is exposed.

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=1896899

No matter how obedient or how devout a Christian is to Christ, he is less worthy than someone who accepts Joseph Smith. The LDS, who beg to be acknowledged as Christians, scoff at our devotion to Christ. According to Mormonism, we are not as worthy of God's blessings as they are.

Jesus has been replaced.

I can't believe you've started a thread on this.

If you approach these discussion with an us verses them attitude you won't get far with any LDS or anyone else who doesn't follow directly in line with your beliefs.


Besides Baker as well as you have grossly misunderstood my comments.

Tom

 

[Rescued One]

I can't believe you've started a thread on this.

If you approach these discussion with an us verses them attitude you won't get far with any LDS or anyone else who doesn't follow directly in line with your beliefs.


Besides Baker as well as you have grossly misunderstood my comments.

Tom

Tom, you are one of the nicest guys around. Seriously, I really do like you. How do I misunderstand your comments? I don't think I do. I've been impressed with the kind of person you are. I believe I understand what you say.

I'm just praising God that the truth is so clearly shown. Unfortunately, you LDS aren't willing to give up Joseph Smith for the truth of God. That is incredibly sad. No, I can't get anywhere with LDS; only God can do that.

Your doctrine is like Jell-o; I was just surprised that Baker nailed it to a tree.

Please forgive my enthusiasm; it just bubbles forth. I don't rejoice in your failure to know the truth. I rejoice that the truth can be exposed because there are people who are seeking God with all their hearts.

 

[twhite982]

Tom, you are one of the nicest guys around. Seriously, I really do like you. How do I misunderstand your comments? I don't think I do. I've been impressed with the kind of person you are. I believe I understand what you say.

I'm just praising God that the truth is so clearly shown. Unfortunately, you LDS aren't willing to give up Joseph Smith for the truth of God. That is incredibly sad. No, I can't get anywhere with LDS; only God can do that.

Your doctrine is like Jell-o; I was just surprised that Baker nailed it to a tree.

Please forgive my enthusiasm; it just bubbles forth. I don't rejoice in your failure to know the truth. I rejoice that the truth can be exposed because there are people who are seeking God with all their hearts.

I'm glad for your enthusiasm.

Here is my response to Baker:

Again either you've only skimmed what I actually said or my writings skills need some serious polishing.

My point was we have faith in Christ that He called Joseph Smith to be a prophet and establish a temple to the Lord for the purpose of ordinances.

Joseph Smith is NOT the intermediary between the Father Christ is. I was trying to make a point with Baker about the temple and his assumptions about it.


Tom

 

[Rescued One]

I'm glad for your enthusiasm.

Here is my response to Baker:

Joseph Smith is NOT the intermediary between the Father Christ is. I was trying to make a point with Baker about the temple and his assumptions about it.


Tom

Okay, let's try to clear this up. Who is worthy of a temple recommend? A Christian who doesn't smoke or drink alcohol or caffeine, is chaste, benevolent, honest, and pays a full tithe? Is that enough or must he also accept Joseph Smith as a prophet of God?

 

[calgal]

Okay, let's try to clear this up. Who is worthy of a temple recommend? A Christian who doesn't smoke or drink alcohol or caffeine, is chaste, benevolent, honest, and pays a full tithe? Is that enough or must he also accept Joseph Smith as a prophet of God?

And what about "eternal progression?"

 

[twhite982]

Okay, let's try to clear this up. Who is worthy of a temple recommend? A Christian who doesn't smoke or drink alcohol or caffeine, is chaste, benevolent, honest, and pays a full tithe? Is that enough or must he also accept Joseph Smith as a prophet of God?

He / She must first believe that God established the LDS church through Joseph Smith. The other will come with time.


This is the first obstacle many don't get past. The other points would be therefore irrelevant.


Tom

 

[Rescued One]

He / She must first believe that God established the LDS church through Joseph Smith. The other will come with time.


This is the first obstacle many don't get past. The other points would be therefore irrelevant.


Tom

So therein lies the difference between a Christian and a Mormon. You believe you are more worthy based on those teachings which you accept.

We believe that we can be reconciled to God through Jesus Christ without Joseph Smith and his successors.

 

[ChoirDir]

Your doctrine is like Jell-o

I always thought it resembled swiss cheese.
Many of the Apostles founded the Churches of Orthodoxy. Peter established the Churches of Antioch and Rome. Mark the Evangelist established Alexandria. James established Jerusalem. But we don't believe that without Peter or James or Mark we can be reconciled to God.

 

[arizona_sunshine]

So therein lies the difference between a Christian and a Mormon. You believe you are more worthy based on those teachings which you accept.

According to this line of thought, you believe you are more worthy of grace based on your rejection of Joseph Smith whom you believe to be a false prophet.

If you do not believe there is anything 'of God' to be had in the Temple, why are you so preoccupied with who is and is not 'allowed' inside?


I just do not get it.

 

[arizona_sunshine]

But we don't believe that without Peter or James or Mark we can be reconciled to God.

You do, however, believe their words, which are in canonized scripture, are to be accepted as truth in the acceptance of Christ.

Accepting Christ means, along with many other things, supporting those whom He has called to His service. We believe Joseph Smith is one of them. We believe Christ to be our exclusive advocate with the Father. Joseph Smith testified of this belief in his acceptance of the Holy Bible.

 

[spike]

Praise God! Baker found the crux of Mormonism is believing in someone other than Jesus Christ. The truth is exposed.

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=1896899

No matter how obedient or how devout a Christian is to Christ, he is less worthy than someone who accepts Joseph Smith. The LDS, who beg to be acknowledged as Christians, scoff at our devotion to Christ. According to Mormonism, we are not as worthy of God's blessings as they are.

Jesus has been replaced.

"Other than"?

GWiT, the leap in logic (or lack of it) that you take in moving from baker's comment to your conclusion is amusing. Could you break it down for us a little better?

BTW, nice comment on the 'less worthy' aspect, Sunshine! It's a shame that this point is lost on so many..

 

[spike]

oops.. forgot to ask..

"Baker, will you still respect me in the morning?"

 

[unbound]

According to this line of thought, you believe you are more worthy of grace based on your rejection of Joseph Smith whom you believe to be a false prophet.

If you do not believe there is anything 'of God' to be had in the Temple, why are you so preoccupied with who is and is not 'allowed' inside?


I just do not get it.

I think it was meant to show false doctrine within its own teaching. False doctrine often contradicts itself.

 

[arizona_sunshine]

I think it was meant to show false doctrine within its own teaching. False doctrine often contradicts itself.

Our Doctrine contradicts mainstream Christianity in some cases, yes. However, I find no evidence of contradictions within my own faith. (But I have not looked to hard seeking contradictions... so that is not meant as a challenge)

Here is what GWiT said:

No matter how obedient or how devout a Christian is to Christ, he is less worthy than someone who accepts Joseph Smith.

And, according to that line of reasoning, no matter how 'devoted a member of the LDS church is to finding Christ and reflecting His teachings,' he will never be as worthy as a Christian who has merely rejected Joseph Smith as a 'false prophet,' and accepted the Nicene Creed as doctrine.

The line of reasoning being presented is flawed.



The LDS, who beg to be acknowledged as Christians, scoff at our devotion to Christ.

I do not 'beg to be acknowledged as a Christian.' I believe I am a Christian, and the opinions of other men mean absolutely nothing to me. It is God to whom I am accountable.

Furthermore, I do not scoff at anyone's devotion to Christ. I present a different understanding and adhere to a differenct set of beliefs, as I am freely entitled to do so within the law of the land and within Divine Allowance.

I scoff at no one's belief in God, Christ, Buddha, Iggy, etc.

(Iggy is commonly referenced within other forums by the 'E.A.C.' )

 

[baker]

According to this line of thought, you believe you are more worthy of grace based on your rejection of Joseph Smith whom you believe to be a false prophet.

If you do not believe there is anything 'of God' to be had in the Temple, why are you so preoccupied with who is and is not 'allowed' inside?


I just do not get it.

Sunshine,

First of all I did not want to post on this thread as it's title does not really thrill me.

However I think your statement is a bit irrelevant. For me, worthiness has nothing to do with Smith. It has only to do with a belief in the teachings of Christ. It also seems that when I've asked this pointed question of other lds posters, they seem, IMHO, to concur that it is a belief in Christ.

If you beleive that it is a requirement to accept Smith as a messenger of Christ, for salvation as promised by Christ, then we would disagree. It's not that I so much reject Smith as a prophet, but perhaps find no reason to acknowledge him as one.

First of all, I don't know what he brought to this earthly life that I did not already have as promised by God. Secondly, if someone is going to claim he is a prophet, I have to analyze his character to see if he is the type of messenger God would choose. When I find that he was a practicing adulterer, denied his own revelation from god, and violated not only his own church covenants, but also the laws of the land(all facts supported by your church records), it becomes very difficult to buy into this claim. If God needed a modern day prophet, is it not reasonable to conclude he would have chosen someone with a bit more credibility? (I really believe this is a fair, reasonable and serious question to ask.)

With respect to the temple, I don't think it is so much fustration of non-admittance for the non-lds posters here as much as it is the lds claim of Christian requirement. As you know, I have been having dialogue with Twhite on this very issue. His time is limited but so far all I have been able to see is that it is mostly "I know", "I feel", and "I believe" with respect to this claim. I am very much interested in finding scriptural support for the whole temple requirement but have been provided none to date. You are welcome to share your thoughts on this matter if you so choose. But I guess why I find this temple practice a bit un-christian is that it seems to do more to separate people from the claim of god's word being sacred than allowing all to hear it. I do not find where Christ taught that His sacred word was only for "worthy" to hear. As He said in John, "I speak openly and in secret have said nothing"

Perhaps this is a topic for a separate thread.

 

[arizona_sunshine]

baker

Sunshine,

First of all I did not want to post on this thread as it's title does not really thrill me.




Yeah.


However I think your statement is a bit irrelevant.

I find this thread irrelevant as the entire premise is flawed. No one determines 'worthiness' ultimately, but the Creator.


Perhaps this is a topic for a separate thread.

Good idea. I will surely avoid that thread as you and I are both well aware that I am not thorough enough to contend with you.

 

[leeuniverse]

No matter how obedient or how devout a Christian is to Christ, he is less worthy than someone who accepts Joseph Smith. The LDS, who beg to be acknowledged as Christians, scoff at our devotion to Christ. According to Mormonism, we are not as worthy of God's blessings as they are.

Worthyness is a matter for God to Judge......
God has always had His Chosen People, His Saints, His believers. Just because one doesn't know or see the fullness of His Gospel as it is today, that doesn't make them any less "worthy" of Gods blessings.
For ALL have the Light of Christ within them, and they are accordingly blessed according to their magnification of that Light.
So, one is in deep error to believe that LDS look down on others, or consider them less worthy simply because you are not with us.

Luke 9:49-50
Galatians 5:22-26, 6:1-2
2 Thessalonians 1:7-10

Jesus has been replaced.

No-one has "replaced" Jesus anymore than an Apostle and Prophet of God "replaces" the Father and the Son.
One is in deep error to believe that simply because there are modern Prophets that they replace previous Prophets or even Christ Himself.

Eph. 2:
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

 

[leeuniverse]

Unfortunately, you LDS aren't willing to give up Joseph Smith for the truth of God.

We have no "special affinity" for Joseph Smith other than God revealing to us that He was a True Prophet of God.
Joseph Smith is in complete harmony with the Father and Eternal Truth, this is my witness from much experience and study.

I rejoice that the truth can be exposed because there are people who are seeking God with all their hearts.

You assume we do not?

Also, I would challenge you that you don't seek God with "all your heart" as much as you think, because if thus were so, you would not judge this religion so harshly when you have DONE little to actually know it.
You have in fact "pre-judged" according to your perceptions, and not that which is of God.
True Faith requires an empty cup and DEEP sacrifice in order to discover the Truth, a thing which few are able to master.

John 7:17