Babywise

[Knight]

I realize that this is likely to raise some hackles but what are your opinions of the Babywise method of parenting?

Specifically, the subject of Parent Directed Feeding (PDF).

For information on this see:
www.gfi.org


I've noticed that a lot of emotions run very high when this issue comes up. I hope we can have a civilized discussion.

 

[mamaneenie]

Hi, I don't know that much about the Babywise methods, I had a quick look at that link and it seems that it is alright.

By PDF do you mean that the baby cannot decide for themselves if they are hungry? What age do you think this applies. I breastfed my son for 16mths (I let him wean himself) I believe that as a newborn babies should be able to decide when they are hungry, and you should meet that need. If you are breastfeeding this is how to develop the milk supply. I know that this helped our bonding process because at least he wasn't crying for milk all the time. I think as children develop into toddlerhood, their food needs can be fitted into a more "adult-like" pattern.

The family I knew who went along the "parenting God's way" track and did this program, somehow seem to think they are better than everyone else. The mother in particular criticises one of my friends saying that he was not in a proper routine and all sorts of rubbish which isn't true. This has given me a bad opinion of this program.

I am very interested in having a civilised discussion with you and will try to put aside what this other lady has said to other people.

What are their rules on sleeping? Do they encourage co-sleeping? or controlled crying?

 

[Zoe]

I do not agree with this method of parenting whatsoever. It actually makes me very sad for the babies whose parents choose to go with this. I fully believe that a baby doesn't cry for no reason. God made babies to cry so that parents will know that something is needed. Babies cry when they need changed, when they are hungry, uncomforable, or need cuddles and love. This method of parenting teaches people to put the baby on your schedule. Do what is convenient for you. He teaches to feed the baby at certain times and only then, no matter how much the baby cries out of hunger. He teaches people to let their baby cry at night. Since the dawn of time people have had to get up with their babies at night. It is a fact of life. How selfish to make the baby cry at night. (at that young of an age) Really, I can't discourage someone from this enough. I urge you to look into the cons, not just pros of this book. There are many many cases of babies health deteriorating from using this method. It is not natural.

 

[mamaneenie]

I don't agree with letting the baby cry in the middle of the night. If the baby has woken up (especially if they are hungry or wet) then the child needs to be seen to.

 

[LovingMother]

Their argument that babies that nurse too often aren't getting enough hind milk and will fail to thrive isn't taking into account that each woman has a different let-down (the time and effort necessary to get the milk flowing). With my first I was berrated for not feeding my child long enough. I let him eat until he stopped. I couldn't force him to continue. He thrived and gained weight quickly. After continued berratement despite these results, tests showed that he was getting all the nutrients he needed. I have a very fast let-down. By the time some babies just start getting their milk, mine is almost done.

However, the idea of heeding cues, keeping an eye on the time, and making a concerted effort to understand what the baby needs, these things combined as a whole package, is a good thing. Even cue-feeding partents are taught to keep an eye on all of these things to make sure their child is getting what he needs. Also, keep in mind that the baby's needs will change as he develops. At times he will need to eat more often, particularly during growth spurts, and it's important to meet these needs.

I didn't see anything on the website about night feedings. Sometimes, babies wake up for reasons that don't need immediate attention, in which case they are likely to go back to sleep fairly quickly and letting them cry a little won't hurt. However, it's not right to just let a baby cry and cry and cry without meeting the need. With gentle guideance, such as putting a baby to bed at the same time every night, and down for nap every day, most will settle into a schedule on their own with only minor deviations.

The thing to keep in mind, is that all children are different. Not all cry only for their immediate needs (like my oldest son, who some would term "challenging"). Most babies cry because they need something in particular. Some will be more sensative than others and will have more triggers. Most have specific cries for specific needs and a parent who pays attention will learn these. Two of my children were fairly easy to read, while my first had the same cry for everything, in which case I had a list of possiblities to go through to get to what he was crying for.

I don't really know the particulars of the Babywise method, I didn't see specific information listed on the website other than the parent directed feeding, but if it includes reading baby's cues, watching the clock for scheduled needs with the clock being submissive to the cue and meeting the needs the baby cues for with gentle guideance into a schedule, then I'm for it.

 

[Knight]

Hi, I don't know that much about the Babywise methods, I had a quick look at that link and it seems that it is alright.

By PDF do you mean that the baby cannot decide for themselves if they are hungry?

Well, this is Parent Directed Feeding not Clock Directed Feeding. The parent establishes a routine of Feeding, Wake-time and Nap time. This starts out every 2.5 to 3 hrs. However, there are exceptions where feeding can take place earlier. Parents are encouraged with this method to look for hunger cues and respond accordingly. The important thing is to make sure they get a full feeding rather than snack feeding.

With our daughter, she settled in to a 2.5 to 3 hr schedule very well. There have been exceptions where she had a cold and couldn't get a full feeding (it's hard to nurse when you've got a plugged nose), therefore she got hungry earlier. The PDF method encourages parents to establish a routine but also make their own decisions. They also teach that the 2.5 to 3hr schedule is a recommended place to start. Some babies may need to be fed every 2 hrs. However, they stress that the time should never exceed the 3 hr mark. For our situation this meant my wife had to work very hard to wake our daughter up so she could nurse. (For the first couple of weeks anyway.)

The family I knew who went along the "parenting God's way" track and did this program, somehow seem to think they are better than everyone else. The mother in particular criticises one of my friends saying that he was not in a proper routine and all sorts of rubbish which isn't true. This has given me a bad opinion of this program.

I am very interested in having a civilised discussion with you and will try to put aside what this other lady has said to other people.

Don't let someone else's bad attitude give you a false impression of this program. This is not the norm for those who follow this method. My wife and I for example.

What are their rules on sleeping?

Yes, babies should sleep.
For our situation we put her down for the night and let her sleep until she wakes us up. Then she is fed and put back to bed. This typically happens once or twice a night. For now anyway......

Do they encourage co-sleeping? or controlled crying?

I cannot recall any specific information on co-sleeping. Perhaps you can email them and ask.....
My wife and I do not believe in co-sleeping.

I'm not sure what you mean by "controlled crying" but the method does allow for babies to cry for a time. The lessons outline times when it is normal for a baby to cry and times when it is not normal. They do not encourage letting them cry for hours on end but rather to learn their crying style. For example, our daughter will typically cry for a little while after she is put down for the night. For her this is a on and off cry that slows down as she gets sleepy and falls asleep. When she cries like this we know that it will only be a matter of 15min or so before she falls asleep. If she gets more agressive and goes longer than the usual time then we know that something is wrong.

Anybody who has children knows that there are times when a baby cries for no apparent reason. They don't want food, they don't need to be changed, they don't want to be held, and they don't want to be put down. This is normal fussy time and usually occurs in the afternoon/evening. I can set my watch by our doughter's fussy time. Right about 7:00 every evening....

There is a lot of hate going around with regard to this method of baby care. I think it is due, in a large part, to a lack of understanding of it. Critics have claimed that this method is too strict and focusses too much on the clock rather than the baby. This is not true at all as I explained above.

 

[Knight]

This method of parenting teaches people to put the baby on your schedule. Do what is convenient for you. He teaches to feed the baby at certain times and only then, no matter how much the baby cries out of hunger.

No, it does not teach this. It teaches parents to establish a routine of feeding, wake-time, and naps. There is no strict, unbending, devotion to the clock.

He teaches people to let their baby cry at night. Since the dawn of time people have had to get up with their babies at night. It is a fact of life. How selfish to make the baby cry at night. (at that young of an age)

No the method does not teach this either. In fact they teach that middle-of-the-night feedings are to be expected during the first few months. The baby should start sleeping through the night on their own. The time this happens varies from child to child.

Really, I can't discourage someone from this enough. I urge you to look into the cons, not just pros of this book. There are many many cases of babies health deteriorating from using this method. It is not natural.

Have you actually read the book in question or just people's opinions on it? As I said there are a lot of misconceptions about this method.
I agree that there can be health issues if a strict, clock-based schedule is held. However, that is not what this method teaches.

 

[Tini]

Knight

Hi - we did PDF with our second son. He is now 20 m.o. Our eldest son (now 5yrs) did not have this.

Our first son was difficult baby and cried a lot (for about 5 months!). PDF worked well for our second son. But a few observatiosn from me.

Yes - the gfi and babywise method do seem to have some scientific flaws - especially around the hind milk etc. Check out the various web pages (both pro & con). I think if you do a search on the forum you'll find some stuff to point you.
Do not become too legalistic - if the baby is wet - change him. Give him a cuddle etc. I really missed not having him sleep with us and snuggle when he was small. He does it now, but as a father I missed that.

So in conclusion PDF did work for us - but our youngest is a totally differnt character to his brother (I'm not sure it would have worked first time around). And make sure that it is not so rigid that you are rules by it rather than guided by it.

 

[Knight]

Yes - the gfi and babywise method do seem to have some scientific flaws - especially around the hind milk etc. Check out the various web pages (both pro & con). I think if you do a search on the forum you'll find some stuff to point you.

The method does teach flexibility for situations where this becomes an issue.

Do not become too legalistic - if the baby is wet - change him. Give him a cuddle etc.

Where in this method does it say not to change a wet baby?

I really missed not having him sleep with us and snuggle when he was small. He does it now, but as a father I missed that.

As I said earlier, I do not recall if this method directly addressed the issue of co-sleeping. That has been discussed on the forums already and I would rather not get into it.
Suffice it to say my wife and I do not support this idea.

So in conclusion PDF did work for us - but our youngest is a totally differnt character to his brother (I'm not sure it would have worked first time around). And make sure that it is not so rigid that you are rules by it rather than guided by it.

Kids are different by nature. I wonder if the same would have been true had the same method been used for both... Just hypothesising....

The PDF method does not teach rigid inflexibility as I have explained before.

 

[LovingMother]

Well, this is Parent Directed Feeding not Clock Directed Feeding. The parent establishes a routine of Feeding, Wake-time and Nap time. This starts out every 2.5 to 3 hrs. However, there are exceptions where feeding can take place earlier. Parents are encouraged with this method to look for hunger cues and respond accordingly. The important thing is to make sure they get a full feeding rather than snack feeding.

When I was doing most of my research on child care (about two and three years ago) most lactation experts recommended a four hour time frame between feedings as being ideal. Even with my last baby (six months old now) the hospital lactation staff still wanted me to nurse every four hours. Do you know where the 2.5 to 3 hour time frame originated for this method? I'm just curious really.

My kiddos wanted to nurse that often as infants anyway, but I didn't wake them up that quickly if they were sleeping. In my expereince, waking a baby to feed him is very frustrating since nursing often puts the baby right back to sleep with your breast in his mouth. I kept an eye on the clock to make sure the time between feedings wasn't ridiculous, but I figured they would wake when they were hungry enough.

 

[Knight]

When I was doing most of my research on child care (about two and three years ago) most lactation experts recommended a four hour time frame between feedings as being ideal. Even with my last baby (six months old now) the hospital lactation staff still wanted me to nurse every four hours. Do you know where the 2.5 to 3 hour time frame originated for this method? I'm just curious really.

Honestly, I'm not sure. I believe it has to do with getting the proper amount of food. For our daughter, when she is awake, she tends to get hungry on a three hour schedule on her own. It could also be that their stomachs are so small that they metabolize all that is in them in about 3 hrs.... Just guessing here.
Perhaps you can find out on the website I mentioned or by emailing the author....

My kiddos wanted to nurse that often as infants anyway, but I didn't wake them up that quickly if they were sleeping. In my expereince, waking a baby to feed him is very frustrating since nursing often puts the baby right back to sleep with your breast in his mouth. I kept an eye on the clock to make sure the time between feedings wasn't ridiculous, but I figured they would wake when they were hungry enough.

My wife understands the frustration of nursing a sleepy baby. It was a little tougher on her because our daughter was early. It worked out and she does fine now.

There are times when we will let her sleep a little longer but we don't usually take it pase 3.5 hours.

 

[HeatherJay]

I really don't know anything at all about the method, other than what the website talked about. But I have 2 girls, 2 and 5, and I truly enjoyed cuddling them to sleep up until they were about 6 months old. At that point we let them fall asleep on their own in bed.


We've always done the co sleeping thing if they're fussy at night...we still do, actually. Usually, they only want to sleep with us one or two nights a week. I figure that they're only little once and I want to hug and kiss and hold them as much as I can.

I think, as parents, you have to find the method that works best for you and your child. And you're right, Knight...parents do get very defensive when it comes to 'how-to-raise-children' debates. No one wants to be told that they're doing it wrong.

Love, Heather

 

[LovingMother]

I think all methods out there (except the strict clock method that doesn't account at all for the baby's specific needs) have their strong points. My own preference was to read up on a number of different methods and use the best parts of each.

I did want to point out that we, too, did not agree with co-sleeping at first. I didn't care if others did it as long as they did it responsibly (ie I chatted with a number of moms who didn't take the time to make their adult beds safe for their infant) but it wasn't something I wanted to do. However, it's hard to understand the needs of a challenging child until you have one. For my challenging son, co-sleeping became a necessity. He simply would not sleep by himself. Even our pediatrician said that he wouldn't be able to stay up the WHOLE night and to just let him cry until he cried himself to sleep. This was after I tried everything else within reason. So, I did let him cry. And he cried and he cried and he cried and at eight o'clock the next morning he was still crying. I hated myself for letting anybody talk me into that and from then on he slept in our bed until I was able to gently wean him into his own bed.

My second child slept in her own bed without problem from the get go and my third needs extra cuddling only occasionally and we haven't found it necessary to cosleep with him, so he, too, sleeps in his own bed. My children who have slept in their own bed regularly seem to be healthier emotionally, but it's hard to compare since my challenging son was a challenge from the start and the sleeping arrangements may have little to do with it. However, he does seem better able to control his own behavior since moving into his own bed.

 

[lucypevensie]

I pretty much agree with the Babywise methods. I had always kind of been led to believe that the best comfort for a fussy baby is nursing. So when my *very* fussy son was born, guess what we did all the time? I sensed as I was "feeding" him that all this nursing was not really filling his need ei he fussed even if he nursed. I had heard about the babywise book and went to buy one out of desperation. I read the whole thing in one afternoon. I decided to try feeding him every 2.5 hrs rather than every 30 min (or whatever it was). It cut down on a lot of frustration. Though he was still kind of fussy I at least knew that it was not for lack of food. And thankfully, he outgrew that fussiness (honestly, I think it was pure boredom. The more he learned to do the happier he became), and today is the coolest little boy I know .

It should have been painfully obvious to me that babies do not only cry to express hunger, but I think I had read too many militant breastfeeding books or something.

 

[LovingMother]

Yes, I had this same problem. My "challenging" son just screamed all of the time and I had a lot of people telling me to just nurse him and he would be fine. Babies do nurse just for comfort sometimes, but my little guy fussed even when nursing, also, so nursing at that point was little more than a frustration for both of us.

I think when almost all your baby does is fuss, nothing is painfully obvious as far as what to do about it! I tried everything within reason to comfort my little guy and very little helped.

One thing that did help for us was when he was about 9 months old, I started teaching him some sign language, just basic things like the sign for "more" when he wanted food and "drink" for when he was thirsty. He learned it quickly and, though his signs were a little crude, he started communicating and this really cut down on the fussing. Before the sign language, he would just scream the same scream for everything!

I'm glad that Babywise helped you, lucypevensie!

 

[Etharia]

I personally dno't know anything about the Babywise system, however, I did come accross this site.
http://www.ezzo.info/Aney/aneyaap.htm

I plan to check out the Babywise book to make my own comclusions.

 

[PollyAnna]

I learned of this method through my sister and we read the book and took the class. We basically took from it what we deemed as good information and left the rest behind. We were not strict with it at all as we believe all children are different and require different techniques of parenting with each.

In our case, I had a rough labor and ended up with a c-section b/c he was coming out the whole top of his head instead of the back of his head first. When he was born he had a huge bruise on his head from the hours of laboring, and it was obvious that his neck was sore and he couldn't find a comfortable position.

I had a horrible time getting him to nurse and looking back on it I believe he had sore jaw and it would hurt when nursing. He wouldn't latch on very well so I ended up pumping all the time to keep my milk up and feeding him through a bottle. I gave up after 4 months because it was so stressful with him crying and me crying because he's crying when it was feeding time. He never wanted to be held, he wanted to be down looking around at everything.

He was a great sleeper and I often had to wake him to feed him so he settled into routine easily.

Now that he's in the toddler years he loves to cuddle, although he is still quite independent.

I believe it can work for some ppl but we didn't follow it 100% due to his personality and complications with the birth and nursing. In our case, it was a better bonding experience to go with the bottle than breast and we held him as much as he would let us. Sometimes I'd bring him into bed with us and sometimes we'd put him in his crib. He's a very well-adjusted child.

I think that this method should be used the same as any other method. You take away what you deem good and leave the rest behind. There is no 1 perfect way of parenting. Each child is different and can't be put in the same box as another child. What works with one child may not work with another. That's what makes parenting so hard. LOL

 

[Super Gnat]

Just be careful. A lot of bad stuff seems to be associated with Babywise:
http://www.rickross.com/reference/gfi/gfi5.html

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2001/112/54.0.html

 

[lucypevensie]

*BIG SIGH* When someone can show me where in the book it says to let a hungry child go hungry such that they lose weight THEN I will be happy to listen to their concerns.

 

[Kiwi]

I think it also depends on your personality, I had a friend who was a perfectionist type and did this program and it almost drove her crazy so in the end she just gave up the whole thing. I have never read the book myself, some people swear by it and others just swear about it. I tend to think that if a baby is hungry, feed it, just like we like to eat when we are hungry. My midwife told me not to feed any more than every three hours otherwises your milk does not have enough time to build up again. This was specifically for me because I had trouble keeping up a good supply.