B-b-b-but you can't kiss icons during Covid though right guys ? Right ?

[Justin-H.S.]

Demons and Icons

 

[Arc F1]

From The 7th Ecumenical Council (787 A.D.)

confessed by Bishop Theodosius in order to be reconciled to the Church after supporting iconoclasm:

“Likewise also I venerate and honour and salute the relics of the Saints as of those who fought for Christ and who have received grace from Him For The Healing Of Diseases And The Curing Of Sicknesses And The Casting Out Of devils, as the Christian Church has received from the holy Apostles and Fathers even down to us today.”


• Extracts from the Acts. Session I.

NPNF2-14 The Seventh Ecumenical Council. Extracts from the Acts. Session I.


https://twitter.com/AudioScribeOW/status/1308387590823792646

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I have to say that I just don't get it or should say I don't understand it. I kiss my wife and kids not objects. I don't bend the knee and pray in front of any objects either.

 

[Justin-H.S.]

I have to say that I just don't get it or should say I don't understand it. I kiss my wife and kids not objects. I don't bend the knee and pray in front of any objects either.

This is a 2-story universe commentary on 1-story universe beliefs.

 

[Hermit76]

I have to say that I just don't get it or should say I don't understand it. I kiss my wife and kids not objects. I don't bend the knee and pray in front of any objects either.

Just like most of us from the West, you are used to reasoning out practices. The Church had established practices and explanations that we weren't privy to in our theological formation. One must get past their tendency to rationalize the faith in order to accept it in its fullness. I say this to you respectful as I feel you were respectful in your response.
We are connected to the reality of eternity and the heavenly realm. Icons are windows to that reality. We honor the Saints and worship God just as we do on Earth. We don't see a casket as an end to existence. Saint Paisios is just as alive and real to me as my own children. The wood of the icon and the paint does not in any sense take on his reality. But the icon allows my limited human facilities to experience his reality. This is sacred. If we were to treat the icons as some kind of replacement body then there would be issue. A Saint exists whether there is an icon of them or not.
Does this help?

 

[AMM]

The wood of the icon and the paint does not in any sense take on his reality. But the icon allows my limited human facilities to experience his reality. This is sacred. If we were to treat the icons as some kind of replacement body then there would be issue. A Saint exists whether there is an icon of them or not.
Does this help?

To continue that point - we don’t need an icon to ask for the prayers of a specific saint. My icon corner is pretty small and has the icons of only a couple Saints (and Christ, of course), but we believe that we are “surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses” even without Icons, and not having Icons doesn’t prevent us from praying (to God or the saints)

 

[ArmyMatt]

I don't bend the knee and pray in front of any objects either.

Christ and the Apostles did. if you read about how the Tabernacle and Temples were constructed, they were covered with imagery and had objects in them.

 

[rusmeister]

I have to say that I just don't get it or should say I don't understand it. I kiss my wife and kids not objects. I don't bend the knee and pray in front of any objects either.

I totally get your reluctance and agree with Hermit that you seem respectful. I shared that reluctance until I found that my own reluctance was uninformed as to WHY these things are done.

 

[BNR32FAN]

It’s probably not a good idea for everyone to kiss them but a knuckle bump would probably be ok.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

I have to say that I just don't get it or should say I don't understand it. I kiss my wife and kids not objects. I don't bend the knee and pray in front of any objects either.

It took a little while for me to get used to some stuff.

There is actual healing and grace that comes from Holy Relics of The Saints.


Here are a few verses that helped me :


Now God worked unusual miracles by the hands of Paul, so that even Handkerchiefs or Aprons were brought from his body to the sick, and the diseases left them and the evil spirits went out of them.
Acts 19:11


so that they brought the sick out into the streets and laid them on beds and couches, that at least the shadow of Peter passing by might fall on some of them. Also a multitude gathered from the surrounding cities to Jerusalem, bringing sick people and those who were tormented by unclean spirits, and they were all healed.
• Acts 5:15-16

And You Shall Make Two Cherubim Of Gold; of hammered work you shall make them at the two ends of the mercy seat.
• Exodus 25:18

Then Joshua tore his clothes, and fell to the earth on his face Before The Ark Of The LORD until evening, he and the elders of Israel; and they put dust on their heads.

• Joshua 7:6

.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

One time a few months before my Holy Chrismation and Baptism, I went to kiss The Holy Icon of Christ during Orthros that the priest holds and I could literally feel a demonic spirit that was harassing me leave away from me in fear.

I am being completely serious.

It wasn't in a possession type of way that it was harassing me. It was more of an oppression type of way.

The Icon looked a little bit like this :

.

 

[Arc F1]

It took a little while for me to get used to some stuff.

There is actual healing and grace that comes from Holy Relics of The Saints.


Here are a few verses that helped me :


Now God worked unusual miracles by the hands of Paul, so that even Handkerchiefs or Aprons were brought from his body to the sick, and the diseases left them and the evil spirits went out of them.
Acts 19:11


so that they brought the sick out into the streets and laid them on beds and couches, that at least the shadow of Peter passing by might fall on some of them. Also a multitude gathered from the surrounding cities to Jerusalem, bringing sick people and those who were tormented by unclean spirits, and they were all healed.
• Acts 5:15-16

And You Shall Make Two Cherubim Of Gold; of hammered work you shall make them at the two ends of the mercy seat.
• Exodus 25:18

Then Joshua tore his clothes, and fell to the earth on his face Before The Ark Of The LORD until evening, he and the elders of Israel; and they put dust on their heads.

• Joshua 7:6

.

Thank you.

 

[Arc F1]

Just like most of us from the West, you are used to reasoning out practices. The Church had established practices and explanations that we weren't privy to in our theological formation. One must get past their tendency to rationalize the faith in order to accept it in its fullness. I say this to you respectful as I feel you were respectful in your response.
We are connected to the reality of eternity and the heavenly realm. Icons are windows to that reality. We honor the Saints and worship God just as we do on Earth. We don't see a casket as an end to existence. Saint Paisios is just as alive and real to me as my own children. The wood of the icon and the paint does not in any sense take on his reality. But the icon allows my limited human facilities to experience his reality. This is sacred. If we were to treat the icons as some kind of replacement body then there would be issue. A Saint exists whether there is an icon of them or not.
Does this help?

Not really. Not that's its wrong I just haven't had any experience with it. From the outside it always looked as if people were worshipping the items or person. Like kissing the ring of the pope. I was just curious. I meant no disrespect.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

Thank you.

You're welcome.


.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

Not really. Not that's its wrong I just haven't had any experience with it. From the outside it always looked as if people were worshipping the items or person. Like kissing the ring of the pope. I was just curious. I meant no disrespect.

I get it.

That's what I used to think from the outside looking in when I was Evangelical / Baptist.

Researching The 7th Ecumenical Council of 787 A.D. really helps in that regard.

NPNF2-14

NPNF2-14 The Seventh Ecumenical Council. Extracts from the Acts. Session I.



The truth is that The people who were against icons were strongly influenced by Islam.

St. John of Damascus wrote a defense for and definition of Orthodox Christian Doctrine during the rise of Islam :

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[Justin-H.S.]

Not only were the iconoclasts influenced by Islam, the reformers who later went to Constantinople/Istanbul were influenced by Islamic iconoclasm. The Protestant reformers and the Ottomans had a common enemy in the Holy Roman Empire.

Protestantism and Islam - Wikipedia

 

[rusmeister]

Not really. Not that's its wrong I just haven't had any experience with it. From the outside it always looked as if people were worshipping the items or person. Like kissing the ring of the pope. I was just curious. I meant no disrespect.

As someone raised Baptist, and to whom "early Church history" was "Foxe's Book of Martyrs", discovering actual Church history of the first 1,500 years before Martin Luther (a huge blank spot to the people I grew up with) was heckuva revelation. Where we got our ideas of the Trinity from, the Nicene Creed, the canon of Scripture, the 7 Councils, iconoclasm, the Masoretic texts as something meant to "diss" Christian faith, the break-off of Rome, and everything that led to Luther's rebellion against Rome - all left out of my highly pious upbringing.

Church history is key. It changes how you see things. There's ignorance which is darkness, and then there is enlightenment, which, uh, lights up the big picture.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Not really. Not that's its wrong I just haven't had any experience with it. From the outside it always looked as if people were worshipping the items or person. Like kissing the ring of the pope. I was just curious. I meant no disrespect.

just something to keep in mind, but when you worship something or someone, you make an offering of some kind to them. so while it might look like icons are being worshipped, they're really not since the only offering we make is to God, if that makes sense.

 

[Hermit76]

Not really. Not that's its wrong I just haven't had any experience with it. From the outside it always looked as if people were worshipping the items or person. Like kissing the ring of the pope. I was just curious. I meant no disrespect.

You didn't convey any disrespect.
Even kissing the ring of the Pope (I'm not suggesting to do so) would show respect for the office over the person. We venerate the Saints but Worship is for God alone.

 

[Hermit76]

Not only were the iconoclasts influenced by Islam, the reformers who later went to Constantinople/Istanbul were influenced by Islamic iconoclasm. The Protestant reformers and the Ottomans had a common enemy in the Holy Roman Empire.

Protestantism and Islam - Wikipedia

I never knew this. Thanks

 

[rusmeister]

I never knew this. Thanks

It's quite true.
Consider the miracle at Cana vs the Islamic prohibition on wine and Prohibition in the US 100 years ago.