AWC refuted

[FreeinChrist]

AWC:
You above accusations are undocumented and a figment of you immagination.

If you can read, and read in context, then you will find that I have said that salvation/justification has ALWAYS been on the basis of FAITH. It was by BELIEVING/DOING (having FAITH) in what God required at that point in time of human history.

At one time God had set the Gentiles aside at the Tower of Babel (Genesis 11) and then took out a people for His own, i.e. the Jews (Deut.7:6). In fact, there was a middle wall of partition between them. Even Jesus Himself COMMANDED His disciples to "...GO NOT INTO THE WAY OF THE GENTILES." Jesus Himself said in Matthew 15:24 "...I AM NOT SENT BUT TO THE LOST SHEEP OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL?"

PLEASE answer this question for me. Who are the one that were "aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise and having no hope" and "far off" referred to in Ephesians 11-13.

PLEASE SHOW ME, what I said above, is heresy, anti-Christian, anti-Biblical, and anti-Christ.

AWC's repeated claims about what you beleive are rather lame.

Correct me if I am wrong, but don't you believe as I - that salvation has always been by grace through faith. The OT saints were saved by grace through faith in God and His promise of the Seed. Those under the Mosiac Law showed their faith by keeping the Law. Not keeping the Law was punished by God and was considered faithlessness by God. Since the cross, we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, our Risen Saviour.

If that is what you believe, then I have trouble seeing your beliefs as "anti-Christian, or anti-biblical, or "rank heresy" as AWC claims.

 

[Dispy]

AWC:
You above accusations are undocumented and a figment of you immagination.

If you can read, and read in context, then you will find that I have said that salvation/justification has ALWAYS been on the basis of FAITH. It was by BELIEVING/DOING (having FAITH) in what God required at that point in time of human history.
(SNIP)

AWC's repeated claims about what you beleive are rather lame.

Correct me if I am wrong, but don't you believe as I - that salvation has always been by grace through faith. The OT saints were saved by grace through faith in God and His promise of the Seed. Those under the Mosiac Law showed their faith by keeping the Law. Not keeping the Law was punished by God and was considered faithlessness by God. Since the cross, we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, our Risen Saviour.

If that is what you believe, then I have trouble seeing your beliefs as "anti-Christian, or anti-biblical, or "rank heresy" as AWC claims.

FiC, I do agree with you, but I usually state it a little differently. The way I usually explain it is by saying: God has always been graceous in that He has ALWAYS provided a means in which one could be saved/justified. Salvation has ALWAYS been on the basis of FAITH/ Like I said above: "It was by BELIEVING/DOING (having FAITH) in what God required at that point in time of human history." (Adam & Eve, Able, Noah, and Abram/Abraham knew nothing about the Law, or the Cross. Moses knew nothing about the Cross or its purpose.)

Under the Law, it was by doing, by FAITH, what the Law required. Deed/works were the vehicle that demonstrated that FAITH.

Under GRACE deed/works of the Law are no longer required. Salvation/justification is on the basis of FAITH ALONE in the Cross work (death, burial and resurrection) of Christ.

THANKS for your support. I do hope and pray that AWC will someday see the light.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

AWC:
You above accusations are undocumented and a figment of you immagination.

I see, so you are not owning up to the statements you have made in the past that the OT Jews were saved by keeping the Law, and that NT gentiles, the church, are saved by grace?

I'll have to see if the thread is still there and remind you of the discussion where I refuted that heresy completely.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

AWC's repeated claims about what you beleive are rather lame.

No, infact they are accurate. Dispy states the classic Darbyite heresy of salvation coming by the Law, as you have now just done.

Correct me if I am wrong, but don't you believe as I - that salvation has always been by grace through faith. The OT saints were saved by grace through faith in God and His promise of the Seed. Those under the Mosiac Law showed their faith by keeping the Law.

That is anti-Biblical, anti-Christian and anti-Christ.

Keeping the Law has never had anything to do with meriting one's favor with God, or meriting salvation, no matter how much you say it was done in "faith".

Paul goes through extraordinary means in Romans, Galatians and Ephesians to refute that false concept.

As a matter of fact, Peter said that no one could keep the Law. James says that if you stumble at one point of the Law, you are then guilty of breaking ALL the Law.

Paul makes it clear what the purpose of the Law was;

to convict of sin

to drive one to Christ.

Tell that nonsense to the tax collector who begged for God's Mercy at the temple while the Pharisee, who kept the Law more than any in Judea was proud that he was not a depraved sinner like that tax collector.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Under the Law, it was by doing, by FAITH, what the Law required. Deed/works were the vehicle that demonstrated that FAITH.

Under GRACE deed/works of the Law are no longer required. Salvation/justification is on the basis of FAITH ALONE in the Cross work (death, burial and resurrection) of Christ.

Yes, that is rank heresy.

"What does the Scripture say, 'Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness."

Salvation has always been by God's Grace, through faith in God's Promise of Messiah, the "seed of Isaac", the "seed of the woman" in Genesis 3, and the imputed righteousness of Christ, not by keeping the Law.

The just shall live by faith.

What Dipsy preaches is nothing short of what the Pharisees taught, legalism.

 

[Dispy]

FiC, I do agree with you, but I usually state it a little differently. The way I usually explain it is by saying: God has always been graceous in that He has ALWAYS provided a means in which one could be saved/justified. Salvation has ALWAYS been on the basis of FAITH. Like I said above: "It was by BELIEVING/DOING (having FAITH) in what God required at that point in time of human history." (Adam & Eve, Able, Noah, and Abram/Abraham knew nothing about the Law, or the Cross. Moses knew nothing about the Cross or its purpose.)

Under the Law, it was by doing, by FAITH, what the Law required. Deed/works were the vehicle that demonstrated that FAITH.

Under GRACE deed/works of the Law are no longer required. Salvation/justification is on the basis of FAITH ALONE in the Cross work (death, burial and resurrection) of Christ.

Under the Law, it was by doing, by FAITH, what the Law required. Deed/works were the vehicle that demonstrated that FAITH.

Yes, that is rank heresy.

"What does the Scripture say, 'Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness."

Salvation has always been by God's Grace, through faith in God's Promise of Messiah, the "seed of Isaac", the "seed of the woman" in Genesis 3, and the imputed righteousness of Christ, not by keeping the Law.

The just shall live by faith.

What Dipsy preaches is nothing short of what the Pharisees taught, legalism.

AWC, WHY do you insist to continually show your ignorance?

You CANNOT offer one verse of Scripture that says Abram/Abraham knew anything about God's promise of a Messiah. That is another figment of your imagination. If you can do that, I will make it realy easy for you. I PROMISE THAT IF YOU CAN SHOW ME THAT VERSE OF SCRIPTURE, THEN I WILL BELIEVE EVERY WORD THAT YOU WRITE, AND I WILL GO BACK TO BEING A CALVINIST.

"For he (Abram/Abraham) looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God" (Hebrews 11:10). Can't seem to find a verse that says he was looking for a Messiah.

Romans 4:2 "For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory: but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness."

Paul is referring back to Genesis 15:5&6 "For He (God) brought him (Abram) forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness."

That was prior to Abram's name being changed to Abraham and before he became a "Jew in the flesh" when he was required to become circumcised.

This was many years prior to Moses and the Law. The Law was yet future. Abram demonstrated his FAITH by just believing what God said. He was saved/justified by FAITH ALONE just as members of the Body of Christ are saved today.

Now lets look at what James says in 2:21 "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Issac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how FAITH wrought with his works, and by works was FAITH made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abram believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

James is speaking of a time AFTER Abram's name was changed to Abraham, and he became a "Jew in the flesh" by fulfilling God's command that he become circumcised. Also, he had to demonstrate his FAITH by performing the work of a sacrifice. Just like under the LAW.

Something you might find interesting. Abram was a Gentile with a Gentile name. He had his name changed to Abraham; which is a Jewish name.

Saul, on the other hand, was a Jew with a Jewish name. His name was changed to Paul, which was a Gentile name. Wonder WHY?

LOOKING FORWARD TO YOUR PROOF, but don't believe I'll get it.

 

[FreeinChrist]

I see, so you are not owning up to the statements you have made in the past that the OT Jews were saved by keeping the Law, and that NT gentiles, the church, are saved by grace?

I'll have to see if the thread is still there and remind you of the discussion where I refuted that heresy completely.

You fail to see that you had falsely accused him, and that you have repeated the false accusation over and over and over and over. It is lame. He said from the beginning that faith was required. It just didn't suit your purpose to understand what he was saying. It has become harrassment.

 

[FreeinChrist]

No, infact they are accurate. Dispy states the classic Darbyite heresy of salvation coming by the Law, as you have now just done.

Then you show your ignorance of what we are saying - or your desire to misunderstand.
Salvation never came by the Law. Salvation has always been by grace through faith (as I clearly stated). The salvation of the OT saints was not realized until the cross. The Law never saved them...but God made it clear that it was important to keep the law, and that not keeping it was a lack of faith in Him.

Now if you want to continue this silliness of claiming that Dispy teaches two gospels, you can - but it just shows your own obstinency and failure to understand what you read.

That is anti-Biblical, anti-Christian and anti-Christ.

I believe your harrassment fits that description.

Keeping the Law has never had anything to do with meriting one's favor with God, or meriting salvation, no matter how much you say it was done in "faith".

Paul goes through extraordinary means in Romans, Galatians and Ephesians to refute that false concept.

And no one said that one could merit salvtion by works of the Law. You surely show your lack of understanding here (or incredible bias). However, God demanded they obey and punished Israel for failing to obey.

As a matter of fact, Peter said that no one could keep the Law. James says that if you stumble at one point of the Law, you are then guilty of breaking ALL the Law.

Paul makes it clear what the purpose of the Law was;

to convict of sin

to drive one to Christ.

Tell that nonsense to the tax collector who begged for God's Mercy at the temple while the Pharisee, who kept the Law more than any in Judea was proud that he was not a depraved sinner like that tax collector.

And you continue to show your failure to understand (or bias). No one has disagreed with the above.

 

[FreeinChrist]

AWC, WHY do you insist to continually show your ignorance?

You CANNOT offer one verse of Scripture that says Abram/Abraham knew anything about God's promise of a Messiah. That is another figment of your imagination. If you can do that, I will make it realy easy for you. I PROMISE THAT IF YOU CAN SHOW ME THAT VERSE OF SCRIPTURE, THEN I WILL BELIEVE EVERY WORD THAT YOU WRITE, AND I WILL GO BACK TO BEING A CALVINIST.

One this one point, I do disagree with you. I do beleive that Moses was aware of the Messiah to be - as teh prophecy of the seed of the Woman was about Christ, and the promises to Abraham and his Seed was about Christ.
I beleive God progressively revealed the Saviour to Israel, but it was known fromthe start to a degree.


Now he is wrong to continue harrassing you about two gospels. I beleive it is possibly flaming.

 

[Dispy]

AWC, WHY do you insist to continually show your ignorance?

You CANNOT offer one verse of Scripture that says Abram/Abraham knew anything about God's promise of a Messiah. That is another figment of your imagination. If you can do that, I will make it realy easy for you. I PROMISE THAT IF YOU CAN SHOW ME THAT VERSE OF SCRIPTURE, THEN I WILL BELIEVE EVERY WORD THAT YOU WRITE, AND I WILL GO BACK TO BEING A CALVINIST.

One this one point, I do disagree with you. I do beleive that Moses was aware of the Messiah to be - as teh prophecy of the seed of the Woman was about Christ, and the promises to Abraham and his Seed was about Christ.
I beleive God progressively revealed the Saviour to Israel, but it was known fromthe start to a degree.

Now he is wrong to continue harrassing you about two gospels. I beleive it is possibly flaming.

FiC:
We know from hind sight that the prophesy of "the seed of the Woman" was about Christ. From what you posted above, from my quote, says nothing about Moses. To the best of my knowledge, you cannot find one verse of Scripture that says that Moses knew about Christ. You are telling me what you want to believe, not from what the Bible teaches.

Show me the evidence, I PROMISE I will believe you.

I don't mind the "harrasment from" from AWC. I rather enjoy it because he give me the opportunity to present what I believe the Bible teaches, while he displays his ignorance.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often, and Love the Lord!.

 

[FreeinChrist]

FiC:
We know from hind sight that the prophesy of "the seed of the Woman" was about Christ. From what you posted above, from my quote, says nothing about Moses. To the best of my knowledge, you cannot find one verse of Scripture that says that Moses knew about Christ. You are telling me what you want to believe, not from what the Bible teaches.

Show me the evidence, I PROMISE I will believe you.

I don't mind the "harrasment from" from AWC. I rather enjoy it because he give me the opportunity to present what I believe the Bible teaches, while he displays his ignorance.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often, and Love the Lord!.

Well, if I show it, I won't insist that you become Calvinist. I am not Calvinist.

The promise of the seed of the woman was given at the fall. Since that time, the there was an expectation of the seed.
Abarham was given the promise that the seed (Seed) would come through his line via Issac:
Gen 17:7 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.
Gen 17:19 But God said, "No, but Sarah your wife will bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; and I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him.

That the promise was of the Messiah is shown here:

Gal 3:16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as {referring} to many, but {rather} to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.
Gal 3:19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.

The promise was repeated to Isaac, and Jacob.
Moses, through Aaron and Miriam, would have known of the promise. And there are several instances when he should have recognized a type of Christ, and i beleive he did evidenced by the verses that follow these.

Look at the two situations with the rock in the wilderness:
Exd 17:6 "Behold, I will stand before you there on the rock at Horeb; and you shall strike the rock, and water will come out of it, that the people may drink." And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel.

Exd 17:7 He named the place Massah and Meribah because of the quarrel of the sons of Israel, and because they tested the LORD, saying, "Is the LORD among us, or not?"

Now the second reference:
Num 20:8 "Take the rod; and you and your brother Aaron assemble the congregation and speak to the rock before their eyes, that it may yield its water. You shall thus bring forth water for them out of the rock and let the congregation and their beasts drink."

Num 20:11 Then Moses lifted up his hand and struck the rock twice with his rod; and water came forth abundantly, and the congregation and their beasts drank.

Num 20:12 But the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, "Because you have not believed Me, to treat Me as holy in the sight of the sons of Israel, therefore you shall not bring this assembly into the land which I have given them."

Moses was punished. why? The Rock was Christ. The first incident is in regards to His first coming, when He is "sturck" - crucified. The second instance is about the Second coming - when you better not try to strike Him.
Look at what God says: "Because you have not believed Me, to treat Me as holy in the sight of the sons of Israel,"
How do we know that it was recognized that the Rock was about Messiah?

Deu 32:4 "The Rock! His work is perfect, For all His ways are just; A God of faithfulness and without injustice, Righteous and upright is He.
Deu 32:15 "But Jeshurun grew fat and kicked-- You are grown fat, thick, and sleek-- Then he forsook God who made him, And scorned the Rock of his salvation.
Deu 32:18 "You neglected the Rock who begot you, And forgot the God who gave you birth. (keep in mind that Moses is the one speaking here)


Psa 89:26 "He will cry to Me, 'You are my Father, My God, and the rock of my salvation.'
Psa 89:27 "I also shall make him {My} firstborn, The highest of the kings of the earth.



2Sa 22:2 He said, "The LORD is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer;
2Sa 22:3 My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge, My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold and my refuge; My savior, You save me from violence.

2Sa 22:32 "For who is God, besides the LORD? And who is a rock, besides our God?

2Sa 22:47 "The LORD lives, and blessed be my rock; And exalted be God, the rock of my salvation,

Another example of Christ that Moses had was the serpent on the staff. Look onto the serpent and be lived. Jesus refers back to that.

Again, the Lord gives Moses a prophecy:
Deu 18:15 "The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him.

Deu 18:16 "This is according to all that you asked of the LORD your God in Horeb on the day of the assembly, saying, 'Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, let me not see this great fire anymore, or I will die.'

Deu 18:17 "The LORD said to me, 'They have spoken well.

Deu 18:18 'I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him.

Deu 18:19 'It shall come about that whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require {it} of him.

That is about Christ.

Now I do believe that Christ was progressively revealed thorughout the OT, but I do believe that Moses had enough iinformation to expect a Messiah and that the Messiah would bring salvation from the curse that occurred at the fall.

So that is why (in part) I state that the OT saints were saved promise of a Messiah - but their salvation was not realized until the cross.

None of this conflicts with dispensationism. Even though faith was always required, the Israelites were required to obey the Law, and failure to obey was faithlessness and punished. Example - the rebellion of Kaorah showed a faithlessness in God. They didn't heed His rules.

One last passage that shows Moses knew of Christ:
Hbr 11:24 By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter,

Hbr 11:25 choosing rather to endure ill-treatment with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin,

Hbr 11:26 considering the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the reward.

Hbr 11:27 By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured, as seeing Him who is unseen.

Hbr 11:28 By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of the blood, so that he who destroyed the firstborn would not touch them.

Hbr 11:29 By faith they passed through the Red Sea as though {they were passing} through dry land; and the Egyptians, when they attempted it, were drowned.
Hope that helps!

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

You fail to see that you had falsely accused him, and that you have repeated the false accusation over and over and over and over. It is lame.

No, it is YOU who fails to see the rank heresy since you also subscribe to the terrible construct of dispensationalism.

Anyone who says that someone is saved(justified) by keeping the Law is preaching rank heresy that was condemned as rank heresy by Jesus, Paul and the Apostles.

As Paul so clearly stated, if someone could be justified by keeping the Law, then Jesus died in vain.

Sorry, but you are blinded by bias towards dispensationalism instead of seeing clearly what Scripture teaches.

He said from the beginning that faith was required. It just didn't suit your purpose to understand what he was saying. It has become harrassment.

I don't care if he does add the word, "faith", just adding the word does not make his heresy any less heresy. It's the meaning of the word, in context of the entirety of Scripture that is important.

Biblical faith, is trusting God for Redemption by His Grace, and through Christ, not faith in one's keeping the Law.

Answering rank heresy on an open, public forum is not harassment either, it's following the Biblical mandate to ernestly defend the faith. I am not interested in pleasing you or anyone else, but God.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Then you show your ignorance of what we are saying - or your desire to misunderstand.
Salvation never came by the Law. Salvation has always been by grace through faith (as I clearly stated). The salvation of the OT saints was not realized until the cross. The Law never saved them...but God made it clear that it was important to keep the law, and that not keeping it was a lack of faith in Him.

No, it is your ignorance that is showing, along with a blind bias.

Dispy does indeed preach that the Israelites were justified by keeping the Law, in the heretical concept of the "dispensation of Law".

Now if you want to continue this silliness of claiming that Dispy teaches two gospels, you can - but it just shows your own obstinency and failure to understand what you read.

No, I understand precisely what Dispy preaches, as have many other Darbyite dispensationalists he has learned from. It is you who has been blinded by dispensationalism.

And no one said that one could merit salvtion by works of the Law. You surely show your lack of understanding here (or incredible bias).

Dispy preaches that the OT Jews merited justification through the Law, and your blind bias keeps you blind from that fact.

 

[Dispy]

Would you believe that I had already gone into much detain in answering that you posted? I was doing it in another program, and when I was going to transfer it over, I hit something that deleted everything I wrote. So here is another attempt.

I really want to THANK you in the manner in which you responded. This way I know exactly where you are coming from and how to reply "correctly," as I see it. Wish everyone would do the same. Also, it does show that what you believe is from Scripture, which it is. Also, it shows that you are a student of the Bible.

Well, if I show it, I won't insist that you become Calvinist. I am not Calvinist.

The promise of the seed of the woman was given at the fall. Since that time, the there was an expectation of the seed.
Abarham was given the promise that the seed (Seed) would come through his line via Issac:
Gen 17:7 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.
Gen 17:19 But God said, "No, but Sarah your wife will bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; and I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him.

As I stated earlier, we know that "the seed of the woman" is Christ. From Genesis 3 to Abram, in Genesis 12, is approximately 1800 years. In that 1800 years, there were no books of the Bible written, or do we know of any written language during those years. The first books of the Bible were written by Moses, through the inspiration God/Holy Spirit. Even the OT prophets, that lived after Moses, wrote by the inspiration of God/Holy Spirit, but did not understand what was made know to them (Dan.12:8-10; 1Pet.1:10-12).

I know of no Scriptures that tell us if anything, or how much, was know about "the Seed." However, we do find "shadows" and "types" of Him. we only know that from hind sight. There are no specific references to Himl (Jesus)

In Genesis 17 we do have what we refer to as "The Abrahamic Covenant." I find nothing in it that refers to Jesus as "the Seed."

Verse 2 say "And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.

Vers 4 says "As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.

You have already quoted vs 7, so I will just go on to verse 8 "And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possess;, and I will be their God."

I cannot see "the Seed" in verses 1-8. It is because of "the Seed" that all of these things will be fulfilled. we see that from Galatians 3:16 which I will respond to below.

That the promise was of the Messiah is shown here:

Gal 3:16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as {referring} to many, but {rather} to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.
Gal 3:19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.

I am going to reply to this from the book "A VERSE BY VERSE STUDY OF GALATIANS BASED UPON THE GREEK NEW TESTAMENT," by Dr. Erenest R. Campbell, founder and president of Canyonview Bible College. There are some words that are written in the Greek language which I will delete and show () where those words were deleted.

Gal.3:16 "The lpromises wee spoken to Abraham and his seed. He did not say, And to seeds, as to many, but as to one, And to you seed, which is Christ."

Some of the promises that were given to Abrham were: (1) that a special land with specifically defined borders would be given to him (cf. Gen. 15:18-20); (2) that his offspring would become a great nation (cf. Gen. 13:16); and (3) that in him all the nations of the earth would be blessed (cf. Gen. 122:1-3). These promises were specifically spoken to Abraham and his seed; and Paul emphasizes the fact that the word translated "seed" () is in the singular, and that it refers to Christ. As the seed, Christ is the epitome and pinnacle of the promises made to Abrdaham.

Paul main issue in this verse is to make very clear those to whom the promises were not spoken and the One to whom the promises were spoken, God did not say "to seeds" (), as "to many (), which more literally means on the basis of many. This means that the basis or reason for giving the promises was not the many, but it was on the basis of the One ().

Paul is making a sharp distinction between Abraham's seed according to the flesh and Abraham's seed according to the promise. In making the promise God said to Abraham, "And to your seed," () which refers to Abraham's particular seed to whom the promise was given, which seed Paul asserts is Christ. Paul's identification of Christ as the seed is very significant, for the duration of the Law was until Christ, the seed, might come, and there is no basis for extending the Law beyond this time.

The promise was repeated to Isaac, and Jacob.
Moses, through Aaron and Miriam, would have known of the promise. And there are several instances when he should have recognized a type of Christ, and i beleive he did evidenced by the verses that follow these.

Look at the two situations with the rock in the wilderness:
Exd 17:6 "Behold, I will stand before you there on the rock at Horeb; and you shall strike the rock, and water will come out of it, that the people may drink." And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel.

Exd 17:7 He named the place Massah and Meribah because of the quarrel of the sons of Israel, and because they tested the LORD, saying, "Is the LORD among us, or not?"

In light of Exd 6:7,8 and fail to see "the Seed" in your above text.

Exodus 6:7 "And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God: and ye shall know that I am the Lord God, which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians
8 And I will bring you in unto the land, concerning the which I did swear to give it to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob: and I will give it you for an heritage: I am the Lord."

In you "proof texts" of Psalms 89, and2Samuel 22, it is the Lord God who is the "rock of salvation." There is no indication it is the "Seed."

Now the second reference:
Num 20:8 "Take the rod; and you and your brother Aaron assemble the congregation and speak to the rock before their eyes, that it may yield its water. You shall thus bring forth water for them out of the rock and let the congregation and their beasts drink."

Num 20:11 Then Moses lifted up his hand and struck the rock twice with his rod; and water came forth abundantly, and the congregation and their beasts drank.

Num 20:12 But the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, "Because you have not believed Me, to treat Me as holy in the sight of the sons of Israel, therefore you shall not bring this assembly into the land which I have given them."

Moses was punished. why? The Rock was Christ. The first incident is in regards to His first coming, when He is "sturck" - crucified. The second instance is about the Second coming - when you better not try to strike Him.
Look at what God says: "Because you have not believed Me, to treat Me as holy in the sight of the sons of Israel,"
How do we know that it was recognized that the Rock was about Messiah?

There is nothing in your "proof text" that state the the Rock was Christ. Moses was punished because God told him to speak to the rock, but Moses did no do as God commanded when he struck the rock.

FiC goes on:

Deu 32:4 "The Rock! His work is perfect, For all His ways are just; A God of faithfulness and without injustice, Righteous and upright is He.
Deu 32:15 "But Jeshurun grew fat and kicked-- You are grown fat, thick, and sleek-- Then he forsook God who made him, And scorned the Rock of his salvation.
Deu 32:18 "You neglected the Rock who begot you, And forgot the God who gave you birth. (keep in mind that Moses is the one speaking here)


Psa 89:26 "He will cry to Me, 'You are my Father, My God, and the rock of my salvation.'
Psa 89:27 "I also shall make him {My} firstborn, The highest of the kings of the earth.

2Sa 22:2 He said, "The LORD is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer;
2Sa 22:3 My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge, My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold and my refuge; My savior, You save me from violence.

2Sa 22:32 "For who is God, besides the LORD? And who is a rock, besides our God?

2Sa 22:47 "The LORD lives, and blessed be my rock; And exalted be God, the rock of my salvation,

Another example of Christ that Moses had was the serpent on the staff. Look onto the serpent and be lived. Jesus refers back to that.

Being I have already responded to Psalms and Samuel, I will only respond to Deu 32:4, 15, &18. In verse 3 is says: "Because I will publish the name of the Lord: ascribe ye greatness unto our God. Where is "the Seed?"

Free in Christ continues:

Again, the Lord gives Moses a prophecy:
Deu 18:15 "The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him.

Deu 18:16 "This is according to all that you asked of the LORD your God in Horeb on the day of the assembly, saying, 'Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, let me not see this great fire anymore, or I will die.'

Deu 18:17 "The LORD said to me, 'They have spoken well.

Deu 18:18 'I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him.

Deu 18:19 'It shall come about that whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require {it} of him.

That is about Christ.

They didn't have a clue as to who this Prophet would be, and were, l'm sure, looking for a human Godly leader. Little did that realize that it would be God Himself manifested in the man Jesus.

The OT prophets wrote as directed by God/Holy Ghost. Often they understand the things that they were writing.

Now I do believe that Christ was progressively revealed thorughout the OT, but I do believe that Moses had enough iinformation to expect a Messiah and that the Messiah would bring salvation from the curse that occurred at the fall.

So that is why (in part) I state that the OT saints were saved promise of a Messiah - but their salvation was not realized until the cross.

None of this conflicts with dispensationism. Even though faith was always required, the Israelites were required to obey the Law, and failure to obey was faithlessness and punished. Example - the rebellion of Kaorah showed a faithlessness in God. They didn't heed His rules.

As I keep saying, from hind sight, we can see Christ in shadows and types throughout the OT. Israel, as a nation, in the NT, rejected Jesus Christ because they didn't believe He was the prophesied Messiah, and they rejected Him and His Kingdom.

Paul was the "chief" person that persecuted the followers of Christ. Even he didn't believe that Jesus was the long promied Messiah. That was until Jesus revealed Himself to Paul on the way to Damascus.

In Paul's early ministry went primarily to the Jews, because of his love for his countrymen. He used to OT scriptures to prove to his listeners that Jesus was the Christ. He, more then any other follower of Jesus used the OT Scriptues in that manner.

To be cont'd

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord

 

[Dispy]

Part 2

One last passage that shows Moses knew of Christ:
Hbr 11:24 By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter,

Hbr 11:25 choosing rather to endure ill-treatment with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin,

Hbr 11:26 considering the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the reward.

Hbr 11:27 By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured, as seeing Him who is unseen.

Hbr 11:28 By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of the blood, so that he who destroyed the firstborn would not touch them.

Hbr 11:29 By faith they passed through the Red Sea as though {they were passing} through dry land; and the Egyptians, when they attempted it, were drowned.
Hope that helps!

To respond to the above, again I am going to copy from Dr. Ernest R. Campbell writings from the book A Commentary of HEBREWS Based On The Greek New Testament." Deleted Greek language works will be indicated by ().

Being vs 26 is underlined, I am assuming that is you primary "proof text," therefore, I am only going to copy what he has to say about verses 25 and 26.

Heb.11:25 "choosing rather to join in suffering with the people of God than to enjoy the temporary pleasures of sin;"

In verse 23, we observe that Moses' parents were moved by their faith in God's promise to restore Israel to the land of Canaan, a God-given faith. In this verse, we observe that Moses, their son, rejects the worldly power and pleasures associated with Pharaoh"s court and, instead, joins in suffering with God's people, the Hebrews, heirs of the Abrahamic promises.

26. "Having counted the reproach of Christ greater riches that the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking unto the reward."

In the preceding verse, we observe that Moses chose to join the people of God, the Hebrews, in their suffering and affliction in Egypt, rather than enjoy the temporary sinful pleasures of the flesh. As we consider the single context of verses 25-26, it is obvious that Moses suffering with the people" is in apposition with the phrase "the reproach of Christ."

We need to examine the phrase "the reproach of Christ," for it s meaning is very significant in this context. The Greek noun translated "reproach" (), as used with the name of Christ in the genitive case, included all the insults, revilings, and unjustified disparaging statements which have been flung against Jesus Christ. In Psalm 69:9 quoted in Romans 15:3, we are atold that "the reproaches of them that reproached You are fallen unto me." This means that the reproaches, insults, and disparaging remarks men have made agains God have fallen upon Jesus Christ.

As we apply the above to the context of verses 25-26, the sufferings and afflictions which were being imposed on the Hebrews in Egypt are referred to as the reproaches of Christ. In other words, Moses, having joined with the people of God, the Hebrews, in suffering, is looked upon as subjectiong himself to the insults, revilings, and reproaches against Christ. To identify oneself with the people of Israel, and the reproaches and insults they suffer because they are the people of God, is to identify oneself with the reproaches and insults which our Lord Jesus Christ suffered (cf. 10:33; 13:13).

Finally, one of the reasons given for Moses joining the suffering Hebrews in Egypt was "for he was looking unto the reward." The Greek verb translated "looking" () means tht without distraction, Moses was fixing his attention on the future reward waiting for him (cf. 10:35).

The following verses, you posted, show the FAITH of moses.

Hope this is helpful.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

 

[FreeinChrist]

No, it is YOU who fails to see the rank heresy since you also subscribe to the terrible construct of dispensationalism.

Anyone who says that someone is saved(justified) by keeping the Law is preaching rank heresy that was condemned as rank heresy by Jesus, Paul and the Apostles.

As Paul so clearly stated, if someone could be justified by keeping the Law, then Jesus died in vain.

Sorry, but you are blinded by bias towards dispensationalism instead of seeing clearly what Scripture teaches.




I don't care if he does add the word, "faith", just adding the word does not make his heresy any less heresy. It's the meaning of the word, in context of the entirety of Scripture that is important.

Biblical faith, is trusting God for Redemption by His Grace, and through Christ, not faith in one's keeping the Law.

Answering rank heresy on an open, public forum is not harassment either, it's following the Biblical mandate to ernestly defend the faith. I am not interested in pleasing you or anyone else, but God.

Well, I belevie you are blinded by a hate of dispensationism as to not see or understand what he said. And as you keep trying to bring it up - yes, it is harrassment.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Dispy, I agree that the Israel was not looking for Jesus, the suffering servant. They expected a Messiah. I do believe that Abraham and Moses did understand that Messiah would come, but because He was revealed progressively throughout the OT period, they didn't understand the whole of it at all. And because they believed in Messiah, their salvation was by grace through faith that God would keep His promises, and that is about Messiah. We know from paul that Abraham had the gospel preached to him by God with the "all nations will be blessed through you." I guess that even though it is not so clearly stated in the OT, that Abraham knew more than was written. He certainly showed faith.

 

[Dispy]

Dispy, I agree that the Israel was not looking for Jesus, the suffering servant. They expected a Messiah. I do believe that Abraham and Moses did understand that Messiah would come, but because He was revealed progressively throughout the OT period, they didn't understand the whole of it at all. And because they believed in Messiah, their salvation was by grace through faith that God would keep His promises, and that is about Messiah. We know from paul that Abraham had the gospel preached to him by God with the "all nations will be blessed through you." I guess that even though it is not so clearly stated in the OT, that Abraham knew more than was written. He certainly showed faith.

As I have stated earlier, Jesus was hid in "shadows" and "types" in the OT. It is because what was revealed to Paul, and his using the OT, to show his countrymen that Jesus was the long promised Messiah, that we have the light in the "shadows" , and what the "types" signified, to show that it was Jesus the OT prophets were speaking of.

We know that Jesus is the Light of the World, But Israel was to be the light to the Gentiles to show them to God.

Joel Finck, in his book "Common Questions About the Grace Message," Question 13) Aren't we supposed to be carrying out the Great Commission? does give us the insight as to how all nations were to be blessed through Israel. I will copy a portion of it just to show you how it was be, and how it will be in the future when Israel, as a nation will recognize Jesus as their long promised Messiah.

13) Aren't we supposed to be carrying out the great commission?

To answer the question, let’s take a mental stroll through the Bible. From the fall of Adam and Eve until this present day, God has always sought the salvation of mankind. He has always provided some way for man to approach Him on His terms. Throughout the ages, God has even gone the extra step of commissioning certain individuals or groups to carry His message to the people of the earth so that they clearly understand just what God expects of them. Before the flood, Noah was commissioned as a preacher of righteousness. For 120 years, as he was building that ark, he proclaimed God’s righteousness to an increasingly sinful and wicked world.

After the flood, the world soon turned away from God once again. Mankind showed its rebellion against God by building a tower and a city to make a name for themselves. To this day we know the name of that tower - the Tower of Babel, the city of Babylon. At this point, God commissioned someone else to become a separate nation through whom He could reach these unbelieving Gentile nations. That person was Abram, soon to become Abraham. This nation, which eventually was known as the nation of Israel, inherited the commission to be a light to the other nations, to lead them to the true and living God. Here is how it was supposed to work: God promised the people of Israel that if they would obey His covenant, then He would be their God and they would be His people. As the nations round about Israel looked at the blessing of God falling upon this one nation, they would ask why they were so blessed? Then they would come and inquire, and Israel would point them to their God and say, “We’re blessed because we serve the living and true God.”

Let us give an Old Testament passage to illustrate how this was supposed to operate. This was God’s order for bringing the nations of the earth to Himself through Israel. We sometimes call this the Kingdom program or the prophetic program. We call it the prophetic program because it was revealed in the prophets. It was spoken of by the mouth of all the holy prophets since the world began (Acts 3:21). Isaiah 60:1-3, “Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee. For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.” Who is He talking about? In this context, He is referring to Zion. Zion is another name for Jerusalem, the capital city of the nation of Israel, in biblical times. In verse 3 we read, “And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.” God’s intention and plan was to bring Israel as a light to the nations and to lift her up on high so that the nations would see that light and so that kings would seek out the glory of God through Israel. This was how it was supposed to work. But unfortunately, many times, it did not work that way. Israel, as the centuries rolled on, failed to be the light that God wanted her to be. Israel, herself, slipped into apostasy. She slipped away from the truth of God’s word and God’s revelation to her. This was the condition that Christ found her in when He came to the earth as a babe in the manger. As our Lord ministered on the earth, His first commission to His apostles was not for them to go out unto all the world. In order for the world to be saved according to that kingdom or prophetic program through the nation of Israel, first Israel had to rise up as a great light. Israel herself was in great darkness when Christ came.

Notice how He first commissioned His apostles. Matthew 10:1-4: “And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican;James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbeaus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.”

Verse 5, “These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, ‘Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not.’” We should ask the question, why not? Did not God love the Gentile nations at this time? Did not Christ desire to see them saved? Of course He did. But He was operating according to knowledge and understanding that God would bring His light to the nations through Israel. If Israel herself was lost, she first needed to come to the Lord, then Israel could be a light to the nations. This is why He says in verse 6, “But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.” In Matthew 15 we see that this commission applied even to our Lord. Matthew 15:21 says, “Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon. And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts.” Notice that the Holy Spirit inspires the writer to show us this is a Gentile woman; a woman of Canaan. Why is that so important? Because of what the Lord is about to say. She comes with a request in verse 22: “She cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” Does that sound like our loving, caring Lord? He does not even talk to her. Why does He do this?

Verse 25, ”Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it to dogs.” This is going from bad to worse it seems. The Lord knew His commission, didn’t He? He knew he was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. He knew that the nations could not be blessed until the children were filled. What children? The children of Israel. Let the children first be filled. But notice her faith in verse 27, “And she said, Truth, Lord.” Her answer shows that she understood the program under which she lived. She understood she did not have a claim on God’s blessings directly. She understood she did not have access to the glorious blessings that God promised to Israel. But then notice her statement of faith, “Yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.” She is saying in effect, Lord I don’t expect the direct blessing that you have promised to your children of Israel. I do not expect that. I just want a few leftovers. I just want a few crumbs. The Lord at that point saw her great faith and so He blessed her. Verse 28, “Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.”

You see that principle being well established that the nations are not to be blessed under this kingdom and prophetic program until Israel is first blessed. Once Israel was straightened out, then and only then, was the message to go out to the nations. Christ made this perfectly clear when He commissioned the twelve apostles.

Luke 24:46, “And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.” Here is that same principle. Let the children first be filled. Acts 1:8, “But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.” When Israel was filled, then the message could go on to the nations. The only problem was that Israel rejected the kingdom offer.
(SNIP)

When "The Light of the world" (Jesus) returns, Israel will recognized "whom they have pierced" and will be that blessing to the natios as promieed to Abram.

FiC, if you would like a copy of this book, I would be more then happy to send you one AT MY EXPENSE. I will make this offer to anyone who would wish to have a copy.

In order to be able to send one, I would need to know your mailing address, which I PROMISE to keep confidential. You can e-mail your address at jellema@alliancecom. Further, I will not send any other unrequested materials.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Well, I belevie you are blinded by a hate of dispensationism as to not see or understand what he said. And as you keep trying to bring it up - yes, it is harrassment.

No, I understand what Dispy has said very clearly. It is the same heresy that has been taught in some dispensational circles for years. To expose and oppose it is not harassment at all, it is a Biblical mandate.

Now, to the touchy feely Rodney King types they may incorrectly call it that, but they do so in ignorance.

By the way, I don't hate dispensationalism either, but thats a nice try at demonizing though.

I tell you what I do hate....heresy, and if you don't, then you have a problem, for Scripture teaches we are to hate heresy.

 

[Dispy]

What Dipsy preaches is nothing short of what the Pharisees taught, legalism.

Matthew 5:17 Think not tht I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled.

Jesus fulfilled the Law by not violating any part of it. Was Jesus a legalist?

Matthew 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that OBSERVE AND DO...

AWC, are you doing what Christ commanded in Matthew 23:1-3? If you aren't, Why not? If you are, then you are just as good as the Pharisees.