Markea said:
Please explain how "Election" has been "tortured", and explain what "Election", means.
Upvote
0
-
Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
-
CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
AWC refuted
- Thread starter holdon
- Start date
- Status
Please explain how "Election" has been "tortured", and explain what "Election", means.
You just don't get it do you.. I know.. it's a mystery..but Paul spells it out for us..
The Deliverer shall come from Sion and turn ungodliness from Jacob..
Who is Jacob ? Who did he become..?
He wrestled with God all night... and finally confessed his real name.. Jacob..and God gave him a new name.. Israel.. which is prince of God..
In the story of Joseph... Jacob learned late in his life that son of his old age was alive and ruler over all.. when Joseph finally revealed himself to his brethren in their deepest time of need, they mourned for him...just as Israel will one day look upon the one who they have pierced.. and they shall mourn for Him in that Day..
The Day of the Lord..
Which is as a thousand years...
It was all foretold prophetically and thematically in the scriptures... and as Matthew's gospel clearly tells us.. in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
The Deliverer shall come from Sion and turn ungodliness from Jacob..
Who is Jacob ? Who did he become..?
He wrestled with God all night... and finally confessed his real name.. Jacob..and God gave him a new name.. Israel.. which is prince of God..
In the story of Joseph... Jacob learned late in his life that son of his old age was alive and ruler over all.. when Joseph finally revealed himself to his brethren in their deepest time of need, they mourned for him...just as Israel will one day look upon the one who they have pierced.. and they shall mourn for Him in that Day..
The Day of the Lord..
Which is as a thousand years...
It was all foretold prophetically and thematically in the scriptures... and as Matthew's gospel clearly tells us.. in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Upvote
0
Markea said:
A "mystery" is truth revealed.
Who is Israel? Paul has told you in Romans 9, the "children of Promise", not the natural seed.
Upvote
0
Markea said:
No, you keep claiming, as does all dispensationalism, that the Jews are the children of God.
Paul says you are greatly mistaken.
Upvote
0
Augustine_Was_Calvinist said:No, you keep claiming, as does all dispensationalism, that the Jews are the children of God.
Paul says you are greatly mistaken.
Can you point out where I made such a claim..?
There has always bee a remnant.. just as there will be a remnant taken through the great tribulation and prepared a place in the wilderness for 1260 days..
The scriptures are full of prophetic and thematic content which foretold of Israel rejecting their Messiah and receiving Him in the latter days... it's futile to reject it because it's going to come to pass whether you like it or not AWC.. for after the fulness of the GENTILES has come in.. the Deliverer will come from Sion and will turn ungodliness from Jacob..
Can a nation be born again... ?
You're going to see Israel receive their King in the latter days and that nation shall be born again.. regenerated.. for after two days will He revive them and in the third day He shall raise them up.. and they shall live in His sight..
Get over it.. it's pointless to kick against it..
Upvote
0
Please explain how "Election" has been "tortured", and explain what "Election", means.
You can't.
You make a false dichotomy between Election and Salvation, just as you make a false dichotomy between Israel and the Church.
Once again, please explain how "Election" has been "tortured", and explain what "Election", means.
You can't.
You make a false dichotomy between Election and Salvation, just as you make a false dichotomy between Israel and the Church.
Once again, please explain how "Election" has been "tortured", and explain what "Election", means.
Upvote
0
Markea will not attempt to explain what "Election" pertains to because it will reveal his errors.
Upvote
0
Maybe it has something to do with making your confirmation.. ? lol
Have fun there CHURCH OF AUGUSTINE.. don't forget the Holy water.. it really helps
Have fun there CHURCH OF AUGUSTINE.. don't forget the Holy water.. it really helps
Upvote
0
Dispy
Veteran
- Jan 16, 2004
- 2,551
- 32
- 94
- Faith
- Non-Denom
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Others
hold on said:
Street Preacher said:
Street Preacher:
The following is taken from chapter nine on ROMANS 9 from the book the book "The Power of God Unto Salvation - Is The Gospel Enough" by Joel Finck.
Calvinists often use several verses from Romans chapter 9 to support the notion that God picks some people to be saved and others are "hardened" so they will remain lost. In this chapter, we will show that this simply is not the case. We have already covered Romans 9:11-13, but will review it here so we see it in the context of the entire chapter. "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth; It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" (Rom. 9:11- 13).
This remarkable passage is construed by Calvinism to mean that before Jacob and Esau were born, Jacob was chosen to be saved and Esau to be damned. The text says nothing of the sort. C.R. Stam correctly comments, "Surely the above passage has nothing to do with predestination to Heaven or Hell. It does not say, nor imply that God gave eternal life to Jacob but consigned Esau to eternal damnation, much less that God loved Jacob and hated Esau before they were born. Nor yet does 'the purpose of God according to election,' in verse 11, have to do with eternal salvation and reprobation, but rather with His purpose to make the descendants of Jacob, rather than those of Esau, His special people."
It can easily be demonstrated that God had nations, not individuals in mind when He said to Rebekah, "The elder shall serve the younger." This quote comes from Genesis 25:23, "And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger."
Furthermore, we know God had nations, not individuals in mind, for Esau never served Jacob personally. But the nation which descended from Esau (Edom) did serve the nation which descended from Jacob (Israel). An example of this is found in I Chronicles, "And he put garrisons in Edom; and all the Edomites became David's servants" (I Chron. 18:13a).
The statement, "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" (Rom. 9:13) is often used by Calvinists to "prove" that God picked Jacob to be saved and Esau to be lost, even before they were born. But the fact is, this statement was first made in Malachi 1:2, some FOURTEEN HUNDRED YEARS after they were born. Again, the point in Malachi is not God's love or hatred for Jacob and Esau, personally. Rather, it refers to God's view of the two nations which descended from these two men.
Now, what is the point of this discussion of Jacob and Esau? Remember the overall context of Romans chapters 9-11 is to explain how God could set aside the Jews and turn to the Gentiles. Paul is simply illustrating from history that God can work through whomever He chooses, and if He decides to depart from the "norm," He has the fight to do so. Technically, Esau should have become the chosen nation, because he was the firstborn. But God, in His sovereignty, chose to use Jacob instead to become the father of the chosen nation.
Hope this is helpful.
Normally I have several copies of theis book on hand jut to give out. If you, or anyone else, would like to have a copy of this book, just e-mail me your mailing address at jellema@alliancecom.net and I will send you one, at my expense as I will be ordering more in the next day or so.
I PROMISE to keep that information confidential, and will not send any other unrequested materials.
God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!
Upvote
0
Besides, God did have Jacob and Esau in mind personally, for He said, "before either was born and had done anything".
Upvote
0
Have mercy, Markea has absolutely nothing to say about what election pertains to. I consider myself somewhat of dispensationalist, but my friend, I don't think you can offer anything that says that election does NOT pertain to salvation.
Upvote
0
Dispy
Veteran
- Jan 16, 2004
- 2,551
- 32
- 94
- Faith
- Non-Denom
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Others
From the book The Power of God Unto Salvation - Is The Gospel Enough?" by Joel Finck.
Because of the total length ot that portion, I did shorten in with (SNIP), but have posted enough to see what the author was getting at in each example.
PART TWO:
KEY WORDS RELATINGTO CALVINISM
Chapter Six:
ELECTION
In the study of Scripture, you will find that the misunderstanding of just one or two words can often lead to disastrous results. It certainly can lead to great misunderstanding of what God is really trying to tell us. Such is the case with the words "election" and "predestination."
In this chapter, we want to answer the question, "What does election actually mean in the Scriptures?" What we will find is that it does not mean what either Calvinism or Arminianism teach. Both of these theologies will tell us that election means "chosen to be saved." This is taken for granted and becomes the major premise from which we are supposed to work. But as you know, if you know anything about logic, if the major premise is wrong then the rest of the equation is going to be wrong as well.
We will see in this chapter that election in Scripture does not mean, "chosen to be saved" at all. Actually, it primarily means to be "chosen to a position of service." We will do two things by way of introduction. We are going to look at the literal meaning of election and then we are going to summarize the meaning of election as used in Scripture.
The word "election" comes from the Greek word "eklectos." In our modern vocabulary, the word "eclectic" is a direct transliteration of this word from the Greek. What does eclectic mean? It has to do with being very selective about certain things. Where does this word originate? The prefix "ek" simply means "out of" and the word "lego" (which is actually the root word) means "to call" or "to speak." So, "eklectos" means to call out, to speak for, and call someone out unto yourself for a purpose. The word that is translated "election" is also translated "chosen," therefore, these two words can be used interchangeably. In the course of this study, we will be giving many examples of how the word is used in Scripture.
The big question then is, "to what are we chosen?" We will answer this by looking at five Biblical elections. We will show that in each case there is a special purpose for the election, and give several Scriptures for each. We will begin with the most important election of all: the "election of Christ."
THE ELECTION OF CHRIST
In Isaiah 42:1 we read, "Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon Him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles." How do we know this is referring to Christ? The text goes on to say, "He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause His voice to be heard in the street. A bruised reed shall He not break, and the smoking flax shall He not quench: He shall bring forth judgment unto troth" (Isa. 42:2,3). This passage is quoted in Matthew 12:18- 21, clearly identifying this "elect" person as the Lord Jesus Christ.
If Isaiah 42:1 teaches us anything, it shows that "election" does not necessarily mean "chosen to be saved." It certainly does not mean this in this context, for Christ was never lost! We will see time and time again that this is not the intent of the word "election" in Scripture. Now, let us continue in this passage and see what is the purpose of Christ's election. Isaiah 42:4 says, "He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till He have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for His law." Is not this a fantastic statement? "He shall not fail nor be discouraged." How often we get discouraged when things do not seem to be going right in the earth. But it says here, Christ will not be discouraged....
(SNIP)
THE ELECTION OF ISRAEL
A second election that we find in Scripture is the election of the nation of Israel. Once again, let us go back to the Old Testament to establish a foundation for this election. In Isaiah 45:4 we find another election, "For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me." Here, Jacob, or Israel is called the elect of God. Again this brings up a question. Does this mean that all who are Israelites are automatically saved? Absolutely not! Israel was made a covenant nation before God. She was chosen in that respect, yet individuals within the nation still were responsible to exercise faith. Of course, under that program one had to demonstrate appropriate works in order to be counted as a part of Israel. Israel as a nation was considered elect. And yet to be a part of that nation, one had to be identified with that nation. How was one identified with that nation? Circumcision provided the means for identification (Gen. 17:9-14). Gentiles could also become part of the elect nation through circumcision (Gen. 17:12), and later, by taking hold of the covenant that was given to Israel (Isa. 56:6). These things identified a person with Israel and with the Lord. If one identified with Israel under that dispensation, he too was elect.
We might ask, "Why is Israel elect?" The answer, ultimately, is because Israel was identified with Christ through the covenant, and Christ is elect. We will see that all of the elections that follow have to do with the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. He isultimately the elect of God. If you want to be elect, you must be identified with Him.
(SNIP)
THE ELECTION OF THE TWELVE APOSTLES
Now, let us move on to the election of the twelve apostles. The first passage we will consider is Luke 6:13. Here is another passage which reemphasizes our point that election is not God's choice to save someone. Our verse states, "And when it was day, He called unto Him His disciples: and of them He chose twelve, whom also He named apostles." Does their election here mean that they were automatically saved? Notice the list of names found in verse 14, "Simon, (whom He also named Peter) and Andrew his brother, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew, Matthew and Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor." We remind the reader that back in verse 13, it does not say "He chose eleven, whom He named apostles," it says He chose "twelve," and one of those twelve was Judas. Now, Judas, obviously, was an unbeliever because we read later that he fell from his office and is referred to as "the son of perdition." Judas was obviously not elected to salvation, yet the Scripture says he was chosen right along with the other apostles. Our next passage further explains the position to which Judas was chosen. Was
Judas a real apostle? Let us see what the Scripture says. Acts 1:15 says, "In those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty), Men and brethren, this Scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus. For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry." Verse 18 continues, "Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out. And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood. For it is written in the Book of Psalms, let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishopric let another take." Judas was "numbered with" the apostles, he "obtained a part of this ministry," he was referred to as an "apostle" when the Lord chose him, and he did hold a "bishopric." He definitely was an apostle. But he definitely was lost. Once more, it is clear that election does not mean "called to salvation," but rather, it is being "called to a position of service."
Several other Scriptures illustrate the same thing: John 6:70,...
THE ELECTION OF THE BODY OF CHRIST
The next category of election which is found in Scripture, is the election of the Body of Christ. At this point we must emphasize that the doctrine of "identification" is the key to understanding election, particularly, the election of the Body of Christ. Ephesians 1:3,4 says, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love." The two little words "in Him" hold the key to understanding election. Some teach and even misquote this verse by saying, "According as He hath chosen us before the foundation of the world." This is not what the passage says. Rather, it says, "as He hath chosen us IN HIM." Our election is based on being identified with Christ.
Beginning in verse 4, Paul enumerates some of the "spiritual blessings in heavenly places" that he has just referred to in verse 3. One of the spiritual blessings which accompanies our salvation is the fact that we are elect in Christ.
In the following verses, He proceeds to list several other blessings as well. Verse 5 says, "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of His will." Notice that he does not say that some people are predestined to be saved, but rather, those who are in Christ are predestinated unto the "adoption of sons" (the word "children" in verse 5 is actually the Greek, "huios," or "sons"). Verse 6 goes on to say, "To the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein He hath made us accepted in the beloved." Here is another of our "all spiritual blessings in heavenly places." We are made to be "accepted," But again, notice that this blessing is only "in the beloved," that is, "in Christ." You see, election to a privileged position of service is just one of many spiritual blessings which we receive when we are "in Christ." These blessings were all planned by God, "before the foundation of the world" (Eph. 1:4), to be given to anyone who would believe. They apply to the believer the moment that person trusts in Christ. "That we should be to the praise of His glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise" (Eph. 1:12,13). The question is not, "am I one of the elect?" Rather, the question should be, "how can I be 'in Christ'?" And the answer given in this text is: by believing the gospel of your salvation.
Now let us consider Romans 8:33. Here we find another reference to the election of the Body of Christ. "Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect"? It is evident that Paul is using the word "elect" here in reference to a group, for it is in the plural. The question is, what group does he have in mind?...
(SNIP)
THE ELECTION OF THE APOSTLE PAUL
A final "election" which is found in Scripture is the election of the Apostle Paul. Paul's election differs from that of the twelve apostles in that his calling pertains to the heavenly program rather than the earthly program which was committed unto them. To the twelve apostles was committed the kingdom upon the earth. Christ clearly told Peter and the Twelve, "...ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel'' (Matt. 19:28). But, to the Apostle Paul was given the ministry which pertains to the heavenly program, "For our conversation (citizenship) is in heaven" (Phil. 3:20).
The Book of Acts makes reference to Paul's election and its purpose: "But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel (or an elect vessel) unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel" (Acts 9:15). Also in Acts 22:14, Annanias "a devout man according to the law" (verse 12) states, "The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of His mouth." Paul's calling was clearly to be an apostle, as he himself states, "Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God" (I Cor. 1:1) This apostleship is further defended in chapter 9, "Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are ye not my work in the Lord?" (I Cor. 9:1). Paul was very clearly called unto apostleship and to a position of privilege as a source of blessing to the Gentiles. This is consistent with the purpose of all of the five elections that we find in Scripture, including Christ's.
(SNIP)
God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord
Because of the total length ot that portion, I did shorten in with (SNIP), but have posted enough to see what the author was getting at in each example.
PART TWO:
KEY WORDS RELATINGTO CALVINISM
Chapter Six:
ELECTION
In the study of Scripture, you will find that the misunderstanding of just one or two words can often lead to disastrous results. It certainly can lead to great misunderstanding of what God is really trying to tell us. Such is the case with the words "election" and "predestination."
In this chapter, we want to answer the question, "What does election actually mean in the Scriptures?" What we will find is that it does not mean what either Calvinism or Arminianism teach. Both of these theologies will tell us that election means "chosen to be saved." This is taken for granted and becomes the major premise from which we are supposed to work. But as you know, if you know anything about logic, if the major premise is wrong then the rest of the equation is going to be wrong as well.
We will see in this chapter that election in Scripture does not mean, "chosen to be saved" at all. Actually, it primarily means to be "chosen to a position of service." We will do two things by way of introduction. We are going to look at the literal meaning of election and then we are going to summarize the meaning of election as used in Scripture.
The word "election" comes from the Greek word "eklectos." In our modern vocabulary, the word "eclectic" is a direct transliteration of this word from the Greek. What does eclectic mean? It has to do with being very selective about certain things. Where does this word originate? The prefix "ek" simply means "out of" and the word "lego" (which is actually the root word) means "to call" or "to speak." So, "eklectos" means to call out, to speak for, and call someone out unto yourself for a purpose. The word that is translated "election" is also translated "chosen," therefore, these two words can be used interchangeably. In the course of this study, we will be giving many examples of how the word is used in Scripture.
The big question then is, "to what are we chosen?" We will answer this by looking at five Biblical elections. We will show that in each case there is a special purpose for the election, and give several Scriptures for each. We will begin with the most important election of all: the "election of Christ."
THE ELECTION OF CHRIST
In Isaiah 42:1 we read, "Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon Him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles." How do we know this is referring to Christ? The text goes on to say, "He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause His voice to be heard in the street. A bruised reed shall He not break, and the smoking flax shall He not quench: He shall bring forth judgment unto troth" (Isa. 42:2,3). This passage is quoted in Matthew 12:18- 21, clearly identifying this "elect" person as the Lord Jesus Christ.
If Isaiah 42:1 teaches us anything, it shows that "election" does not necessarily mean "chosen to be saved." It certainly does not mean this in this context, for Christ was never lost! We will see time and time again that this is not the intent of the word "election" in Scripture. Now, let us continue in this passage and see what is the purpose of Christ's election. Isaiah 42:4 says, "He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till He have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for His law." Is not this a fantastic statement? "He shall not fail nor be discouraged." How often we get discouraged when things do not seem to be going right in the earth. But it says here, Christ will not be discouraged....
(SNIP)
THE ELECTION OF ISRAEL
A second election that we find in Scripture is the election of the nation of Israel. Once again, let us go back to the Old Testament to establish a foundation for this election. In Isaiah 45:4 we find another election, "For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me." Here, Jacob, or Israel is called the elect of God. Again this brings up a question. Does this mean that all who are Israelites are automatically saved? Absolutely not! Israel was made a covenant nation before God. She was chosen in that respect, yet individuals within the nation still were responsible to exercise faith. Of course, under that program one had to demonstrate appropriate works in order to be counted as a part of Israel. Israel as a nation was considered elect. And yet to be a part of that nation, one had to be identified with that nation. How was one identified with that nation? Circumcision provided the means for identification (Gen. 17:9-14). Gentiles could also become part of the elect nation through circumcision (Gen. 17:12), and later, by taking hold of the covenant that was given to Israel (Isa. 56:6). These things identified a person with Israel and with the Lord. If one identified with Israel under that dispensation, he too was elect.
We might ask, "Why is Israel elect?" The answer, ultimately, is because Israel was identified with Christ through the covenant, and Christ is elect. We will see that all of the elections that follow have to do with the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. He isultimately the elect of God. If you want to be elect, you must be identified with Him.
(SNIP)
THE ELECTION OF THE TWELVE APOSTLES
Now, let us move on to the election of the twelve apostles. The first passage we will consider is Luke 6:13. Here is another passage which reemphasizes our point that election is not God's choice to save someone. Our verse states, "And when it was day, He called unto Him His disciples: and of them He chose twelve, whom also He named apostles." Does their election here mean that they were automatically saved? Notice the list of names found in verse 14, "Simon, (whom He also named Peter) and Andrew his brother, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew, Matthew and Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor." We remind the reader that back in verse 13, it does not say "He chose eleven, whom He named apostles," it says He chose "twelve," and one of those twelve was Judas. Now, Judas, obviously, was an unbeliever because we read later that he fell from his office and is referred to as "the son of perdition." Judas was obviously not elected to salvation, yet the Scripture says he was chosen right along with the other apostles. Our next passage further explains the position to which Judas was chosen. Was
Judas a real apostle? Let us see what the Scripture says. Acts 1:15 says, "In those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty), Men and brethren, this Scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus. For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry." Verse 18 continues, "Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out. And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood. For it is written in the Book of Psalms, let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishopric let another take." Judas was "numbered with" the apostles, he "obtained a part of this ministry," he was referred to as an "apostle" when the Lord chose him, and he did hold a "bishopric." He definitely was an apostle. But he definitely was lost. Once more, it is clear that election does not mean "called to salvation," but rather, it is being "called to a position of service."
Several other Scriptures illustrate the same thing: John 6:70,...
THE ELECTION OF THE BODY OF CHRIST
The next category of election which is found in Scripture, is the election of the Body of Christ. At this point we must emphasize that the doctrine of "identification" is the key to understanding election, particularly, the election of the Body of Christ. Ephesians 1:3,4 says, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love." The two little words "in Him" hold the key to understanding election. Some teach and even misquote this verse by saying, "According as He hath chosen us before the foundation of the world." This is not what the passage says. Rather, it says, "as He hath chosen us IN HIM." Our election is based on being identified with Christ.
Beginning in verse 4, Paul enumerates some of the "spiritual blessings in heavenly places" that he has just referred to in verse 3. One of the spiritual blessings which accompanies our salvation is the fact that we are elect in Christ.
In the following verses, He proceeds to list several other blessings as well. Verse 5 says, "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of His will." Notice that he does not say that some people are predestined to be saved, but rather, those who are in Christ are predestinated unto the "adoption of sons" (the word "children" in verse 5 is actually the Greek, "huios," or "sons"). Verse 6 goes on to say, "To the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein He hath made us accepted in the beloved." Here is another of our "all spiritual blessings in heavenly places." We are made to be "accepted," But again, notice that this blessing is only "in the beloved," that is, "in Christ." You see, election to a privileged position of service is just one of many spiritual blessings which we receive when we are "in Christ." These blessings were all planned by God, "before the foundation of the world" (Eph. 1:4), to be given to anyone who would believe. They apply to the believer the moment that person trusts in Christ. "That we should be to the praise of His glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise" (Eph. 1:12,13). The question is not, "am I one of the elect?" Rather, the question should be, "how can I be 'in Christ'?" And the answer given in this text is: by believing the gospel of your salvation.
Now let us consider Romans 8:33. Here we find another reference to the election of the Body of Christ. "Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect"? It is evident that Paul is using the word "elect" here in reference to a group, for it is in the plural. The question is, what group does he have in mind?...
(SNIP)
THE ELECTION OF THE APOSTLE PAUL
A final "election" which is found in Scripture is the election of the Apostle Paul. Paul's election differs from that of the twelve apostles in that his calling pertains to the heavenly program rather than the earthly program which was committed unto them. To the twelve apostles was committed the kingdom upon the earth. Christ clearly told Peter and the Twelve, "...ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel'' (Matt. 19:28). But, to the Apostle Paul was given the ministry which pertains to the heavenly program, "For our conversation (citizenship) is in heaven" (Phil. 3:20).
The Book of Acts makes reference to Paul's election and its purpose: "But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel (or an elect vessel) unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel" (Acts 9:15). Also in Acts 22:14, Annanias "a devout man according to the law" (verse 12) states, "The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of His mouth." Paul's calling was clearly to be an apostle, as he himself states, "Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God" (I Cor. 1:1) This apostleship is further defended in chapter 9, "Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are ye not my work in the Lord?" (I Cor. 9:1). Paul was very clearly called unto apostleship and to a position of privilege as a source of blessing to the Gentiles. This is consistent with the purpose of all of the five elections that we find in Scripture, including Christ's.
(SNIP)
God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord
Upvote
0
Dispy said:
Your two methods of salvation for two peoples, one of keeping the Law for the Jews and one of Grace for the Gentiles has been proven to be rank heresy, anti-Christian, anti-Biblical and anti-Christ.
Upvote
0
Dispy
Veteran
- Jan 16, 2004
- 2,551
- 32
- 94
- Faith
- Non-Denom
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Others
Augustine_Was_Calvinist said:Your two methods of salvation for two peoples, one of keeping the Law for the Jews and one of Grace for the Gentiles has been proven to be rank heresy, anti-Christian, anti-Biblical and anti-Christ.
AWC:
You above accusations are undocumented and a figment of you immagination.
If you can read, and read in context, then you will find that I have said that salvation/justification has ALWAYS been on the basis of FAITH. It was by BELIEVING/DOING (having FAITH) in what God required at that point in time of human history.
At one time God had set the Gentiles aside at the Tower of Babel (Genesis 11) and then took out a people for His own, i.e. the Jews (Deut.7:6). In fact, there was a middle wall of partition between them. Even Jesus Himself COMMANDED His disciples to "...GO NOT INTO THE WAY OF THE GENTILES." Jesus Himself said in Matthew 15:24 "...I AM NOT SENT BUT TO THE LOST SHEEP OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL?"
PLEASE answer this question for me. Who are the one that were "aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise and having no hope" and "far off" referred to in Ephesians 11-13.
PLEASE SHOW ME, what I said above, is heresy, anti-Christian, anti-Biblical, and anti-Christ.
Upvote
0
- Status
Similar threads
