Awake Or Asleep?

[Mark Quayle]

Are you saying that "sleep is just a metaphor" for being present with the Lord?
Did Jesus say that? Or did Jesus say sleep is equivalent to death?

I read,
[Jesus] said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, that I may awaken him out of sleep.”
Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.
So Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead,"

Did you read that also?
You did not read something else, did you?
Did all the scriptures quoted not refer to those who died?

You would like me to believe the scriptures, over what you, or others say, don't you?

Samuel was pretty grumpy when God had him come up to speak to Saul, and I don't think it was because he hadn't had his coffee yet.

 

[Mark Quayle]

You aren't saying that the scriptures in the OP are not truthful, so I am not sure what you are saying.
You seem to be making an argument against, but to do so, would be to deny what Jesus said, and what the scriptures said.
Unless you can explain how what Jesus said, and what the scriptures said, do not mean what they said.

Are you saying the little girl, Lazarus, Stephen, and the Saints were not, or are not sleeping in death?

I did as good a job of explaining it nearly a year ago, in post #20 in this thread, as I can now —I have not much improved with age, though I have gotten a bit more grumpy.

Let me try to explain it like this, now: Do you think it impossible, that even though WE experience a passage of time, and more time to come, before the resurrection unto life eternal, that when death happens to us, that we will have no experience of time passage, and, even, that it is impossible for us to find ourselves arriving to see also Samuel, Jacob, Noah, Adam (even Elijah who did not die) arriving? That's just a question asked also from our point-of-view to get the point across I'm trying to make. Like it, Moses and Elijah, transfigured on the mountain with Jesus, is time-passage relevant to them being there? I'm not asking for what came first, but what God did, and who they are, to God.

My real question is this: Does God, (whose point-of-view is the only reality), see this the way we do? I'm not saying, "Can he see it the way we do?" —I'm asking, "Does he...?"

We are so entrenched into this experience of that which God says is hardly a vapor, compared to the reality of what is to come, that we don't even know how to talk about it except in our terms.

Not to be too cryptic, but ask yourself, What is existence? Is not what God spoke into being, the saved and unsaved, the Bride of Christ and the Reprobate, more real than the time it took, and our viewpoint of how we get there?

 

[Mark Quayle]

King David died a long time ago, and is in God's memory and will be resurrected in the future on judgment day on the last day, he did not ascend to heaven. -Mark 12:27, Acts 2:34

From OUR point of view, yes.

 

[walter45]

I feel we would get a more complete understanding of what The Bible intended for us to understand when we include all the scriptures we can find on that Bible topic.

Someone please give me a scripture that seems to explain all people automatically after death get everlasting life in heaven or hell?

 

[CoreyD]

The Jesus "of the Bible" once said;

Matt. 10: 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy "both soul and body" in hell.

For me, based on all other scriptures pertaining to death, since god created both body and soul, HE alone has the power to "destroy or kill" both body and soul. We know there is a state at the end of our fleshy existence on this earth called "death". According to the Spirit of God, a person who is dead, knows nothing.

Ecc. 9: 4 For to him that is joined to all the living "there is hope": for a living dog is better than a dead lion. 5 For the living "know that they shall die": but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, "is now perished"; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Ps. 146: 2 While "I live" will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being. 3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. 4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day "his thoughts perish".

Is. 38: 18 For the grave "cannot praise thee", death "can not celebrate thee": they that go down into the pit "cannot hope for thy truth". 19 "The living, the living", he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth.

Ps. 115: 17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

It is written in Scriptures that there will be a resurrection of the dead, as everyone will stand before the judgment seat of Christ, to be judged by their works that they did, while they were alive. For this to happen, their essence, spirit or "soul" must be preserved by God for Him to be able to raise them and judge them.

Ecc. 3: 19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. 20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. 21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

I think, based on scriptures, that a man dies and the next thing he sees in the judgment Paul says all men are raised into. Based on Jesus' story of the "Rich Man" after his resurrection, mankind has no concept of time in death. Which makes perfect sense given the Holy Scriptures teach a dead man knows nothing, not even that he is dead and aligns perfectly with Scriptures that tells us this in God's Inspired Words.

So it perfectly reasonable for Jesus to teach that those who are "dead" are merely asleep, and will remain in this state until the Christ Comes back and raises them.

Some raised unto destruction, some raised unto Life. The destruction that would fall on those Jesus mentioned, had already received their rewards in their life as a human. This destruction or as it is called, "Death" is to be "Death Everlasting", that is, a death from which there is no return.

John 5: 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection "of life"; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection "of damnation."

Thank you for sharing, StudyMan.
I can see that you really study.
I am happy to hear yo say "death from which there is no return", because that is exactly what Jesus was referring to when he said "destroy both body and soul in Gehenna" - the Greek word many translations has inappropriately mistranslated "hell". So that now "hell" is cast into "hell" Revelation 20:14. How confusing.

I also like that you recognize that those who are unrighteous are resurrected to judgment.
Some mistakenly think that God is going to raise up people, only to tell them "be gone for what you have done" or something to that effect, and then cast them into a fiery lake that burns forever, but I can't blame them for believing such misleading ideas, since I remember being taught this from the time I could walk, talk, and understand what a person was saying.

I learned from the Bible though, sometime in my mid twenties, that this judgment is not like going before a judge, who bangs his hammer on the table and says in a loud firm voice, "guilty". Then the officers standing next to the person, grabs both arms and carry them off to their fate.
Rather, this judgment is a lengthy period... the Bible says 1,000 years, in which the risen unrighteous have the opportunity to learn the Christ, and be judged based on their deeds.
This thread takes a look at the scriptures which sheds light on that.
Oops. I just realized I forgot to put the link in the post to @walter45. Sorry about that, buddy.

Many people do not understand that the soul is the person, being, or life of that being, and so, when Jesus said love God with your whole soul, they miss the point, because they think man has some living being inside of him, that never dies.
However, this is what the churches have been teaching for centuries... contrary to what the scriptures teach. As the scriptures show, the soul does die. Ezekiel 18:4
It is not put in hell where it's tormented in flames, and then taken out to be cast into another hell with even more intense flames... which never die.

So much confusion is being taught to the masses of people.
Thanks again for sharing these scriptures, and your thoughts along with them.

 

[CoreyD]

Samuel was pretty grumpy when God had him come up to speak to Saul, and I don't think it was because he hadn't had his coffee yet.

Do you believe God resurrected Samuel to talk to Saul?
This, after God refused to talk to Saul, and told Samuel not to, and Saul turned to a witch - a sorcerer, of which God said have no dealings?

I did as good a job of explaining it nearly a year ago, in post #20 in this thread, as I can now —I have not much improved with age, though I have gotten a bit more grumpy.

Let me try to explain it like this, now: Do you think it impossible, that even though WE experience a passage of time, and more time to come, before the resurrection unto life eternal, that when death happens to us, that we will have no experience of time passage, and, even, that it is impossible for us to find ourselves arriving to see also Samuel, Jacob, Noah, Adam (even Elijah who did not die) arriving? That's just a question asked also from our point-of-view to get the point across I'm trying to make. Like it, Moses and Elijah, transfigured on the mountain with Jesus, is time-passage relevant to them being there? I'm not asking for what came first, but what God did, and who they are, to God.

My real question is this: Does God, (whose point-of-view is the only reality), see this the way we do? I'm not saying, "Can he see it the way we do?" —I'm asking, "Does he...?"

We are so entrenched into this experience of that which God says is hardly a vapor, compared to the reality of what is to come, that we don't even know how to talk about it except in our terms.

Not to be too cryptic, but ask yourself, What is existence? Is not what God spoke into being, the saved and unsaved, the Bride of Christ and the Reprobate, more real than the time it took, and our viewpoint of how we get there?

After this post Mark, where all you said was hitting a brick wall... that is, clashing against all the scriptures, these were my words to you, and really, there is nothing more I can add that will change the way it is.

 

[Studyman]

Thank you for sharing, StudyMan.
I can see that you really study.
I am happy to hear yo say "death from which there is no return", because that is exactly what Jesus was referring to when he said "destroy both body and soul in Gehenna" - the Greek word many translations has inappropriately mistranslated "hell". So that now "hell" is cast into "hell" Revelation 20:14. How confusing.

I also like that you recognize that those who are unrighteous are resurrected to judgment.
Some mistakenly think that God is going to raise up people, only to tell them "be gone for what you have done" or something to that effect, and then cast them into a fiery lake that burns forever, but I can't blame them for believing such misleading ideas, since I remember being taught this from the time I could walk, talk, and understand what a person was saying.

I learned from the Bible though, sometime in my mid twenties, that this judgment is not like going before a judge, who bangs his hammer on the table and says in a loud firm voice, "guilty". Then the officers standing next to the person, grabs both arms and carry them off to their fate.
Rather, this judgment is a lengthy period... the Bible says 1,000 years, in which the risen unrighteous have the opportunity to learn the Christ, and be judged based on their deeds.

It's a great study, and I am glad you understand that this world's religions or the voices that promote them, have promoted falsehoods abut god since the serpent in the garden. We are all placed in this world in which this "other voice" exists.

In my study there are two resurrections 1000 years apart. There are those who God used as examples for us, as Paul says, "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.", that will be raised and given another chance, not being used as examples, and they will be taught by the Faithful in Christ who are raised, judged and become Kings and Priests during this time. (Ez. 37)

These Examples will get their fair shot at Salvation in the 1000 year period spoken of. But those who were not used by God as examples, who simply rejected the "Way of the Lord", like the Pharisees and "Christians" in Matt. 7, will be raised in the 2nd resurrection, unto destruction. This is why, in my understanding, that the Rich man saw Abraham and Lazarus, but didn't realize that a 1000 years had passed between the time they were raised, and he was raised. I think this is, at least in part, the Gulf that was between them.

And there is no indication that the Rich man was going to be given another chance. Just as in Matt. 7, I don't think there is any coming back for those men, who had seen their judgment, and was trying to make a case for themselves, "Jesus, don't you know who we are? We built massive religious businesses and hospitals etc., all in your name?"

I do believe God gives every human the same choice, "Life or Death" and will raise those who were never given this choice, to have their fair trial of their faith, in the 1000 year period. But "many" were ALREADY GIVEN this chance since Adam and Eve to repent and turn to Him. I don't believe we, who have the Oracles of God in our own homes, will receive Mercy if we reject Him in our lives. As Jesus said, these many who "work iniquity" even while calling Jesus Lord, Lord, already have their reward in this life.

This thread takes a look at the scriptures which sheds light on that.
Oops. I just realized I forgot to put the link in the post to @walter45. Sorry about that, buddy.

Many people do not understand that the soul is the person, being, or life of that being, and so, when Jesus said love God with your whole soul, they miss the point, because they think man has some living being inside of him, that never dies.

I agree, they either ignore or don't believe that Adam and Eve were not allowed to eat of the Tree of Life, certainly not in the first 3 chapters of the Bible. The same thing is mentioned again in the end of the Bible.

Rev. 22: 12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that "they may have right" to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

He preserves an essence or a record of us, but if HE doesn't return and renew our spirit, we will never even know that we existed.

However, this is what the churches have been teaching for centuries... contrary to what the scriptures teach. As the scriptures show, the soul does die. Ezekiel 18:4
It is not put in hell where it's tormented in flames, and then taken out to be cast into another hell with even more intense flames... which never die.

So much confusion is being taught to the masses of people.
Thanks again for sharing these scriptures, and your thoughts along with them.

Absolutely, the mother of what we know as "Christianity" created many philosophies and traditions contrary to the truth of God, and we were placed in this world where these voices exist. No different that Eve placed by God in the same world, with the same voice that "Professes to know God".

How refreshing it is to fellowship with someone who has harkened to the warnings of the Lord's Christ and the Prophets concerning whose words to live by.

 

[CoreyD]

It's a great study, and I am glad you understand that this world's religions or the voices that promote them, have promoted falsehoods abut god since the serpent in the garden. We are all placed in this world in which this "other voice" exists.

In my study there are two resurrections 1000 years apart. There are those who God used as examples for us, as Paul says, "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.", that will be raised and given another chance, not being used as examples, and they will be taught by the Faithful in Christ who are raised, judged and become Kings and Priests during this time. (Ez. 37)

These Examples will get their fair shot at Salvation in the 1000 year period spoken of. But those who were not used by God as examples, who simply rejected the "Way of the Lord", like the Pharisees and "Christians" in Matt. 7, will be raised in the 2nd resurrection, unto destruction. This is why, in my understanding, that the Rich man saw Abraham and Lazarus, but didn't realize that a 1000 years had passed between the time they were raised, and he was raised. I think this is, at least in part, the Gulf that was between them.

And there is no indication that the Rich man was going to be given another chance. Just as in Matt. 7, I don't think there is any coming back for those men, who had seen their judgment, and was trying to make a case for themselves, "Jesus, don't you know who we are? We built massive religious businesses and hospitals etc., all in your name?"

I do believe God gives every human the same choice, "Life or Death" and will raise those who were never given this choice, to have their fair trial of their faith, in the 1000 year period. But "many" were ALREADY GIVEN this chance since Adam and Eve to repent and turn to Him. I don't believe we, who have the Oracles of God in our own homes, will receive Mercy if we reject Him in our lives. As Jesus said, these many who "work iniquity" even while calling Jesus Lord, Lord, already have their reward in this life.

It's so refreshing having a conversation with someone who understands that there are people who are unrighteous... that is, neither righteous nor wicked, but as described at Jonah 4:11, "people that do not know their right hand from their left". In other words, as we would say, ignorant. ...and that God gives every human who were never given this choice the chance to have their fair trial of their faith, in the 1000 year period. Praise Jah!

You said, these unrighteous ones "will be taught by the Faithful in Christ who are raised, judged and become Kings and Priests during this time."
I'm doing a little Mathematics here, although that wasn't one of my best subjects , so maybe you can help me out here, because although you mentioned, you believe there are two (2) resurrection, in your understanding, I counted three (3).
So, I will accept correction.

The kings and priest that rule during the 1,000 years get the first resurrection. Revelation 20:4, 6 That's one (1)
The unrighteous has to be resurrected before the 1,000 years end, in order to be judged - that is, be given a fair chance at being judge on their choice by knowledge. That's two (1) One plus one (1 + 1) is two (2) I know that much is true.

So if there is a resurrection after the 1,000 years, would that not be three (3) resurrections, and if the unrighteous are raised in that hour on the last day (John 5:28, 29), who would be the ones resurrected after the 1,000 years, and for what purpose?