Australia to Ban Nazi Symbols

[Occams Barber]

THE GUARDIAN
8 JUNE 2023

Australia to Ban Nazi Symbols


The (Australian) federal government will ban Nazi symbols with a punishment of up to a year in prison but it will not ban the Nazi salute, the attorney general, Mark Dreyfus, has revealed.

Dreyfus will introduce a bill next week to make it an offence to publicly display the Nazi Hakenkreuz – the swastika – and the SS Schutzstaffel symbol, or things that closely resemble them. The ban includes flags, armbands, T-shirts, insignia and the use of these symbols on websites promoting the Nazi ideology.

The legislation will also prohibit the display and trade in Nazi memorabilia, making it an offence to seek to profit from such material in stores or online. It will not ban private ownership or transfers of artefacts that are not-for-profit.

The government has drawn the line at legislating against the Nazi salute, believing that policing it and therefore potentially criminalising it is a matter for the states and territories.

The swastika ban does not apply to religious uses including its use in Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism. Further exemptions will apply to academic, educational, artistic, literary, journalistic or scientific purposes.


Sources

Australia to ban Nazi symbols but not the salute, Mark Dreyfus says | Far right | The Guardian
Federal government set to introduce national ban on Nazi symbols - ABC News

OB

 

[RileyG]

Good!

 

[Landon Caeli]

THE GUARDIAN
8 JUNE 2023

Australia to Ban Nazi Symbols


The (Australian) federal government will ban Nazi symbols with a punishment of up to a year in prison but it will not ban the Nazi salute, the attorney general, Mark Dreyfus, has revealed.

Dreyfus will introduce a bill next week to make it an offence to publicly display the Nazi Hakenkreuz – the swastika – and the SS Schutzstaffel symbol, or things that closely resemble them. The ban includes flags, armbands, T-shirts, insignia and the use of these symbols on websites promoting the Nazi ideology.

The legislation will also prohibit the display and trade in Nazi memorabilia, making it an offence to seek to profit from such material in stores or online. It will not ban private ownership or transfers of artefacts that are not-for-profit.

The government has drawn the line at legislating against the Nazi salute, believing that policing it and therefore potentially criminalising it is a matter for the states and territories.

The swastika ban does not apply to religious uses including its use in Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism. Further exemptions will apply to academic, educational, artistic, literary, journalistic or scientific purposes.


Sources

Australia to ban Nazi symbols but not the salute, Mark Dreyfus says | Far right | The Guardian
Federal government set to introduce national ban on Nazi symbols - ABC News

OB

What do you think would happen if someone had a swastika tattoo? Would he be required to cover it while in public?

 

[ThatRobGuy]

I guess I'm trying to figure out what they think they'll be accomplishing with this, and the logistics of the enforcement (especially for the website rules, as well as the exemptions they've laid out).

Basically, couldn't anyone looking to display one simply say they're making an artistic expression?

I understand the motivation behind why people want certain symbols to be removed from public life, but looking at it historically (both domestically and internationally), a lot of times it's very difficult to enforce, and the juice isn't worth the squeeze.

Just one domestic example: The confederate flag.

There was a lot of effort to get the symbol removed from government buildings (which that one I agreed with, because government property is using peoples' tax money) as well as a lot of efforts aimed at preventing people from wearing it in certain settings.

Those efforts for removal largely succeeded. However, I'm not aware of any massive improvement in the problems they were hoping to solve by trying to get rid of it. Like, I don't think there was some guy who was racist in the deep south saying "they took down the confederate flag, I guess I love Black people now"


And in a lot of cases, banning symbols & gestures ends up being a never-ending moving target, where you ban one, and they'll come up with another one to use to identify each other. They tried that with gang colors and gang insignias back in the 90's and it didn't really work.


I can understand (and sympathize with) the motivation for wanting such laws, but hopefully they're not wasting peoples' time and money on something that doesn't really solve anything.

 

[Occams Barber]

What do you think would happen if someone had a swastika tattoo? Would he be required to cover it while in public?

This came up in a news conference. The response didn't strike me as very clear. Basically it was hard to prosecute someone who got the tattoo before the legislation took effect. A lot depends on state laws covering this but it would be difficult to flash a tattoo in the same way you might flash a flag.

OB

 

[Occams Barber]

I guess I'm trying to figure out what they think they'll be accomplishing with this, and the logistics of the enforcement (especially for the website rules, as well as the exemptions they've laid out).

Basically, couldn't anyone looking to display one simply say they're making an artistic expression?

I understand the motivation behind why people want certain symbols to be removed from public life, but looking at it historically (both domestically and internationally), a lot of times it's very difficult to enforce, and the juice isn't worth the squeeze.

Just one domestic example: The confederate flag.

There was a lot of effort to get the symbol removed from government buildings (which that one I agreed with, because government property is using peoples' tax money) as well as a lot of efforts aimed at preventing people from wearing it in certain settings.

Those efforts for removal largely succeeded. However, I'm not aware of any massive improvement in the problems they were hoping to solve by trying to get rid of it. Like, I don't think there was some guy who was racist in the deep south saying "they took down the confederate flag, I guess I love Black people now"


And in a lot of cases, banning symbols & gestures ends up being a never-ending moving target, where you ban one, and they'll come up with another one to use to identify each other. They tried that with gang colors and gang insignias back in the 90's and it didn't really work.


I can understand (and sympathize with) the motivation for wanting such laws, but hopefully they're not wasting peoples' time and money on something that doesn't really solve anything.

You have a habit of letting the perfect be the enemy of the good and a gloomy fatalism I find unproductive. If we followed your lead, we'd never try anything. Noone expects that these groups will suddenly fail and die.

The basic concept is to reduce the profile of these faux Nazi groups to, hopefully, reduce recruitment. A sort of 'out of sight,out of mind approach'. Pseudo Nazi groups are not as historically entrenched in Australia as the Confederacy is in the US.


It'll be reviewed in two years to see if it was worth the effort.

OB

 

[ThatRobGuy]

You have a habit of letting the perfect be the enemy of the good and a gloomy fatalism I find unproductive. If we followed your lead, we'd never try anything. Noone expects that these groups will suddenly fail and die.

The basic concept is to reduce the profile of these faux Nazi groups to, hopefully, reduce recruitment. A sort of 'out of sight,out of mind approach'. Pseudo Nazi groups are not as historically entrenched in Australia as the Confederacy is in the US.


It'll be reviewed in two years to see if it was worth the effort.

OB

It's not that I'm "letting better be the enemy of perfect", it's that I'm not one to jump on board with ideas that are "trying to same thing over and over and expecting different results"

If banning signs and symbolism of crime/hate orgs hadn't been tried before, I'd be inclined to say maybe it's worth trying, but as noted, "we've seen this movie before so we know how it ends"

On the spectrum of "appeal to futility because countries with gun control still have gun deaths" <-> "we've seen what the war on drugs led to, it'd be silly if we tried that again and expected a different result" -- I'd say my position on this falls much closer to the latter.

 

[IceJad]

THE GUARDIAN
8 JUNE 2023

Australia to Ban Nazi Symbols


The (Australian) federal government will ban Nazi symbols with a punishment of up to a year in prison but it will not ban the Nazi salute, the attorney general, Mark Dreyfus, has revealed.

Dreyfus will introduce a bill next week to make it an offence to publicly display the Nazi Hakenkreuz – the swastika – and the SS Schutzstaffel symbol, or things that closely resemble them. The ban includes flags, armbands, T-shirts, insignia and the use of these symbols on websites promoting the Nazi ideology.

The legislation will also prohibit the display and trade in Nazi memorabilia, making it an offence to seek to profit from such material in stores or online. It will not ban private ownership or transfers of artefacts that are not-for-profit.

The government has drawn the line at legislating against the Nazi salute, believing that policing it and therefore potentially criminalising it is a matter for the states and territories.

The swastika ban does not apply to religious uses including its use in Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism. Further exemptions will apply to academic, educational, artistic, literary, journalistic or scientific purposes.


Sources

Australia to ban Nazi symbols but not the salute, Mark Dreyfus says | Far right | The Guardian
Federal government set to introduce national ban on Nazi symbols - ABC News

OB

Are the symbols of communism banned as well? Just wondering. Or this is just another case of turn a blind eye? My great grandmother escape communism in China to settle in Malaya (old name for Malaysia). The sickle and hammer is as much a hate symbol as the Nazi Swastika is.

 

[Occams Barber]

Is the symbols of communism banned as well? Just wondering. Or this is just another case of turn a blind eye? My great grandmother escape communism in China to settle in Malaya (old name for Malaysia). The sickle and hammer is as much a hate symbol as the Nazi Swastika is.

Communist symbology may produce strong reactions in Malaysia but it isn't seen as particularly offensive in Australia. I think this would be similar for the US and UK and much of Europe. Much depends on the experience of particular groups. Perhaps Malaysia should ban Communist symbols.

Nazi symbols are directly associated with the Holocaust where millions of Jews, Poles, Romany, homosexuals and people with disability were shot, gassed, hanged, starved or beaten to death in ghettos and concentration camps during World War II.

The reason Nazi symbology is banned in Australia is because it is used to promote and recruit hate groups. Communist symbols are not used in Australia by these groups.

OB

 

[IceJad]

Communist symbology may produce strong reactions in Malaysia but it isn't seen as particularly offensive in Australia. I think this would be similar for the US and UK and much of Europe. Much depends on the experience of particular groups. Perhaps Malaysia should ban Communist symbols.

Nazi symbols are directly associated with the Holocaust where millions of Jews, Poles, Romany, homosexuals and people with disability were shot, gassed, hanged, starved or beaten to death in ghettos and concentration camps during World War II.

The reason Nazi symbology is banned in Australia is because it is used to promote and recruit hate groups. Communist symbols are not used in Australia by these groups.

OB

Doesn't seem particularly offensive in Australia? During the Malayan emergency the Commonwealth nations provided troops to quell the communist insurgency which include Australians. I do not know how many died in defense of my nation, by the grace of God I'm glad they fought with us. So fast your nation forgets the terror your own troops gave their lives fighting against.

Communism is directly connected with atrocities comparable (at times worse) with Nazism. Nazi has Holocaust and Communism have Holodomor and the great Chinese famine.

 

[Occams Barber]

Doesn't seem particularly offensive in Australia? During the Malayan emergency the Commonwealth nations provided troops to quell the communist insurgency which include Australians. I do not know how many died in defense of my nation by the grace of God I'm glad they fought with us. So fast your nation forgets the terror your own troops gave their lives fighting against.

Communism is directly connected with atrocities comparable (at times worst) with Nazism. Nazi has Holocaust and Communism has Holodomor the great Chinese famine.

I'm not suggesting that Communists haven't done bad things. I am saying that these things and Communist symbology are not a major part of the culture of this country. For us Communist symbols don't carry the same meaning as they seem to do for you.

Symbols gain their strength through historical experience. Even our WWII experience of Japanese atrocities has largely faded from the Australian psyche along with negative associations with the rising sun symbol.

Nazi symbols have retained their image as a result of a combination of what they did along with the ongoing use of the symbols by various hate groups. Hate groups do not as a rule employ the hammer and sickle as a promotional or recruitment tool so banning them in Australian society can't be justified.

OB

 

[IceJad]

I'm not suggesting that Communists haven't done bad things. I am saying that these things and Communist symbology are not a major part of the culture of this country. For us Communist symbols don't carry the same meaning as they seem to do for you.

Symbols gain their strength through historical experience. Even our WWII experience of Japanese atrocities has largely faded from the Australian psyche along with negative associations with the rising sun symbol.

Nazi symbols have retained their image as a result of a combination of what they did along with the ongoing use of the symbols by various hate groups. Hate groups do not as a rule employ the hammer and sickle as a promotional or recruitment tool so banning them in Australian society can't be justified.

OB

The move to ban symbols unevenly will only cause more issues. You either ban nothing or ban everything. Currently the groups use Nazi imagery, so you ban them. What happens next if they switch symbols to a cross or a crescent moon & a star? Ban them when the time comes? What about the old abandoned Nazi symbol? Unban them? What happens when the hate group adopts the flag of the nation as their rallying call? Ban the symbol of your nation because a small group of people uses the flag for nefarious purposes?

The wiser move is to target hate group for their ideology not symbolism. My country after being devastated by both Imperial Japan and Communist insurgents didn't ban any of their symbols. We target the groups themselves not symbols which are meaningless when disassociated from the groups.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Communist symbology may produce strong reactions in Malaysia but it isn't seen as particularly offensive in Australia. I think this would be similar for the US and UK and much of Europe. Much depends on the experience of particular groups. Perhaps Malaysia should ban Communist symbols.

Nazi symbols are directly associated with the Holocaust where millions of Jews, Poles, Romany, homosexuals and people with disability were shot, gassed, hanged, starved or beaten to death in ghettos and concentration camps during World War II.

The reason Nazi symbology is banned in Australia is because it is used to promote and recruit hate groups. Communist symbols are not used in Australia by these groups.

OB

Are the symbols of communism banned as well? Just wondering. Or this is just another case of turn a blind eye? My great grandmother escape communism in China to settle in Malaya (old name for Malaysia). The sickle and hammer is as much a hate symbol as the Nazi Swastika is.

...I think part of it is that if there's two bad ideologies happening at the same time (or during the same massive noteworthy event), the "lesser of two evils" gets a pass and overlooked at bit. Had their been no Third Reich, and had Russia not been part of the allied forces to defeat it, I think society would have a much harsher view of it today.

I think one can make a strong argument that the sentiments behind Nazism are more evil than those behind Communism...Communism just happened to rack up a bigger body count due to its reach and spread as to where Hitler and his crew were limited by their manpower and territorial limitations, and had Hitler's ideology spread as far as communism did, he likely would've ended up killing the most people.


While I question how efficacious banning Nazi symbolism will be in what Australia's trying to do, I'm less concerned with the "Well, then why aren't they banning the communist flags too?" and more concerned with the fact that we have so many youths in Westernized countries flying and celebrating the communist flags and have somehow gotten it in their heads that "Communism is the proper antithesis of Fascism" (noted by the fact that the hammer and sickle symbolism is ubiquitous in "antifa" movements)

And while Nazism is worse (for a few reasons), people willing to identify as that are somewhat isolated to some pretty small fringe corners of society. As to where communism, despite only being 2nd place in the "evil" category, does have quite a propensity for spreading and make itself seem socially acceptable (particularly among young people, either for reasons of being disenfranchised with capitalism, or simply because it's "cool" to be "radical")

 

[jayem]

What do you think would happen if someone had a swastika tattoo? Would he be required to cover it while in public?

As I recall, Charlie Manson carved a swastika on his forehead before his trial. Not a good way to get a sympathetic jury.

I wonder if prisons are considered to be public places subject to the swastika ban. If so, that would be a problem. Swastika tattoos are a mandatory part of prison gang dress codes.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Communist symbology may produce strong reactions in Malaysia but it isn't seen as particularly offensive in Australia. I think this would be similar for the US and UK and much of Europe. Much depends on the experience of particular groups. Perhaps Malaysia should ban Communist symbols.

Nazi symbols are directly associated with the Holocaust where millions of Jews, Poles, Romany, homosexuals and people with disability were shot, gassed, hanged, starved or beaten to death in ghettos and concentration camps during World War II.

The reason Nazi symbology is banned in Australia is because it is used to promote and recruit hate groups. Communist symbols are not used in Australia by these groups.

OB

If the government bans a symbol those that are inclined to be members of a hate group will simply find a new one to display. At least when they use a symbol that people universally recognize and are generally disgusted by, it is harder for the hate group to recruit and indoctrinate the gullible as even the gullible will be alerted to their intentions.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

If the government bans a symbol those that are inclined to be members of a hate group will simply find a new one to display. At least when they use a symbol that people universally recognize and are generally disgusted by, it is harder for the hate group to recruit and indoctrinate the gullible as even the gullible will be alerted to their intentions.

That's the theory some people have expressed, that "if you target the well-established signs and symbols associated with hate, it'll make it harder to recruit", but it would appear that doesn't really work, in practice, if we're to believe what was said about the Pepe the Frog and "okee-dokey" hand gesture controversies over the past 5 years.

And I guess you don't even have to get that "nitty gritty" with it. There are some that felt that Trump rallied and recruited the most extreme people from the right into his corner and turned them into rabid supporters. And it wasn't done with a well-established symbol like a swastika or Klan insignia, it was done with a red baseball cap that said "make America great again" on it.

If all of that is true, then that would indicate that newer, lesser known "dogwhistle" style swag and signs are actually more effective for recruiting gullible folks than well-established hate symbols are.

 

[grasping the after wind]

That's the theory some people have expressed, that "if you target the well-established signs and symbols associated with hate, it'll make it harder to recruit", but it would appear that doesn't really work, in practice, if we're to believe what was said about the Pepe the Frog and "okee-dokey" hand gesture controversies over the past 5 years.

And I guess you don't even have to get that "nitty gritty" with it. There are some that felt that Trump rallied and recruited the most extreme people from the right into his corner and turned them into rabid supporters. And it wasn't done with a well-established symbol like a swastika or Klan insignia, it was done with a red baseball cap that said "make America great again" on it.

If all of that is true, then that would indicate that newer, lesser known "dogwhistle" style swag and signs are actually more effective for recruiting gullible folks than well-established hate symbols are.

Just as Obama flew his personal flag instead of the hammer and sickle.

 

[Pommer]

Just as Obama flew his personal flag instead of the hammer and sickle.

Obama was a communist?

 

[Bob Crowley]

I presume the reason for the ban of Nazi symbols was to reduce the effect of far-right groups which have become more prevalent in recent years.

There seem to be those in every country who are attacted to far-right ideology.

Far-Right Extremism Is a Global Problem

And it is time to treat it like one.

foreignpolicy.com

I don't know if banning certain symbols will make much difference. Certainly in Australia there would not be a great deal of public sympathy for the display of Nazi flags and symbols, but as others have pointed out the far right groups will simply go underground, and in that respect they could become even harder to stop as they will be more hidden.