ATTENTION, ALL READ ... please.

[Polycarp_fan]

Please, don't claim that the Mods are favoring anyone. If you see a rule breaking post - especially one by one of the groups you've mentioned - please report it.

I have never found the Society Mods to be anything but fair. They don't let their personal opinions get in the way of removing flaming posts. Even if it might seem "unfair" from your side, remember that the Mods can't spend their time looking for any post that might be rule breaking, and help them out by Reporting any rule-breaking post you see. It might just be that people aren't reporting posts of the "non and anti Christians, the liberals and the progressive Christians" as you so put it, because people are probably less likely to report rule breaking posts that "support their side". The Mods, especially right now, can't know that a post is breaking the rules unless one of us regular members Reports it!

If anyone feels that Mods are acting unfairly, then they should try and do their part by Reporting the rule-breaking posts of those people they feel are getting favored!!

I promise you, the Society Mods seek only to remove posts that break the rules! They do not want to "silence" any "side" of an issue, they just want to do their job: Enforcing the Rules of CF and the Guidelines of E&M!

 

[WatersMoon110]

Thank you! I understand it is very easy to get upset - right now is an upsetting time for many of us, no matter what side of an issue we might be on. But I'm glad to see that you are willing to help the Mods and Report all the rule-breaking posts you see!

 

[LittleNipper]

If that's how you sleep at night.

I sleep very well because I have a Heavenly Father who I know cares about me. I don't know what you have... But I must presume that your values were all fabricated in your head.

 

[Polycarp_fan]

I sleep very well because I have a Heavenly Father who I know cares about me. I don't know what you have... But I must presume that your values were all fabricated in your head.

L-N,

That little elephant, I thought he was headed to th elephant's grave yard?

Still kicking huh? How many times has it been said that it was finished?

PM me for some cool news.

 

[Beanieboy]

Can the two of you go play Guitar Hero and let the grownups talk?
Sheeesh.

 

[Atlantians]

I stand by my statement that anyone who voted yes on the proposition, and anyone who supports that proposition is an awful bigot. They may otherwise be nice people, but on that issue they're as bigoted as the KKK.

That is all.

Your definition of bigotry is irrational. That is all.

It is also insulting to all Christians who affirm Biblical truth as well as those who were victims of the KKK.

 

[Athene]

In response to the updated edit:



WHAT!!!!! The absolutely common accusation toward we Christians, that desire that our rights not be violated BY Gay Activism, is ridicule, labeled as haters, accused of racism and violence. And the list of gay labels against our opposition.

How about just trying for justice huh?



What "pain?" This is an internet debate site. Not one person is being "hurt" by the letters put into sentences on these threads. And "you mods" allow incessant and non-stop insults to be never-endingly directed at any and every word that disagrees with THEIR positions.



Ever thought that "someone" is trying to derail and silence opposition? "I" have been insulted time and time again, and have reported many people and yet, I do not call for threads to be closed.



Looks like you need help from a couple of Angels huh?

You mods do not hold the non and anti Christians, the liberals and the progressive Christians to the same standard that you do we "conservative Bible-affirming Christians.

I no longer care what you do to me. Truth needs to be seen for as long as you allow this post to stay up.

I'm not in the habit of banning people because they don't agree with the things I say. I'm not trying to silence debate here, I've repeatedly said that anyone and everyone is welcome to express themselves but I draw the line at flaming others.

 

[Atlantians]

This is why CF needs a thread that is no holds barred, let it all hang out thrash-fest. You get to see the real nature of people in a forum like that.

Too much structure hinders reality sometimes.

That is a great idea!

Delete the post, the sentiment isn't going to disappear. Ban me, my sentiment isn't going to disappear.

Then you can be added to Weasel's Book of Progressive Martyrs.

If I said what I really feel like saying right now, I'd be banned for sure. Suffice it to say your post displays the profound ignorance of the suffering this Proposition has caused.

Please understand that such 'suffering' was self-induced and thus can not be sympathized with... but only pitied in empathy.
That 'suffering' is self-wrought do to the attempt made to redefine and recreate an entire institution that has gone unchanged for 2,000 years and has gone largely unchanged for thousands of years before that.
Self-wrought by those who thought that they had the authority to shake their fist at God and reject all his laws.

The facts of the case are these:
Marriage is in definition the unification of the two elements of humanity in a committed relationship. Those two elements are Male and Female.
There are only two elements in humanity. And only different elements can be 'married' together.

The attempt to redefine this institution by those who thought it was their right to rewrite reality failed. This time at least.

Being able to rationalize or not your stances is not the definition of bigotry.

From Merriam-Webster: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices ; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance.

I do not hate and I do tolerate homosexuals.

Voting Yes on 8 was in of itself neither hateful nor intolerant. Only the individual motivations of a voter other than myself and others like me would be.

And so man and woman can get married. But back then, man and woman was child (about the age of 13), so I guess that means that Jesus is all for people marrying at 13.

People were also practically adults when they reached puberty back then. Their culture was far different from our own... adolescence and 'teenhood' is a new invention of this centuries marketers.

Prop. 13
Hereby define marriage as between a man and woman, where man and woman is meant to refer to a male or female at or above the age of 12, repetitively.

You realize that with parental consent that is legal... right?

Also, back in the day, there were the rape laws of Deut. in practice, but Jesus up held them.

Which ones? The one that said that a man could be put to death on the victims word alone? Or the one that ordained that a rapist would have to care for and support the girl he abused for the rest of his life?

I think it is ridiculous to be on a Christian forum, and nonChristians to be held to a higher standard than some of the Christians are themselves.

They are.

If anything, they should be held to a higher standard, and gloating and the disolve of gay people's marriages (those who have married legally) is simply hard hearted, and bad form, and quite ugly.

Reading through this yesterday, I was kind of turned off by Christianity, having seen how they voted, and the tacky postings celebrating the taking away of gay marriages that were once legal, which is such a violation of American rights, and assault on one's pursuit of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

It wasn't 'legal'.

The court vastly overstepped its Constitutional authority and utterly undermined the legislative will of the people in overturning prop 22.

They based their overturning of a voted-in law on the basis of an interpretation of the interpretation of another ruling that itself was flawed.

It was a bad decision and demonstrated the Court's trustworthiness and the requirements for strict rewriting of the Judicial elements of our Constitution to prevent the utter and complete abuse of power Judges are further and further demonstrating.

So, why aren't these posts, which actually paint a negative, ugly image of "Christian", and mock the justness, the humility, the mercy, the gentleness, the love, and the forgiveness of Christ, not reprimanded?

Please post examples of these negative, ugly, and poor images of "Christians", explain why they are negative and ugly, and then please explain how they contradict Christ's words.

Because of the court situation that caused this whole thing and made the proposal of Prop 8 possible, there is a chance the prop will get thrown out on the grounds that it violates the California Constitution, lawyers have already filed on the area...

How exactly does one throw out an amendment to the Constitution based on it being 'unconstitutional'?

Please, don't claim that the Mods are favoring anyone. If you see a rule breaking post - especially one by one of the groups you've mentioned - please report it.

I have never found the Society Mods to be anything but fair.

I would agree mostly.

I disagree with Poly in another way... Conservatives in my experience just don't seem to get offended by anywhere near as much as liberals.

I almost never report anything and those things that I report are almost entirely vulgarities or inappropriate pictures.
So unless a mod would correct me, it would seem that Conservatives just report a lot less.

I deal with things I find wrong or offensive by pointing out the flaws in the reasoning or by using sarcasm to make a point about its irrationality. I rarely resort to reporting. I am sure the mods could also back me up on this.

 

[Beanieboy]

The fact still remains - gays were allowed to marry, and did.
Prop 8 proposed to invalidate the marriage of these couples.

It didn't strengthen marriage. The divorce rate isn't going to go down.
It simply banned gay marriage by defining marriage as one man and one woman.
It is the first time that an Amendment has ever been added to block rights from anyone.

You can claim that it was supporting traditional marriage, or defending it, but it did no such thing.
This is like voting for women to vote. One argues that allowing women to vote will be a threat to the government, and a threat to men's votes. However, it doesn't affect men at all. It affects women, however, if voted down.

Straight marriage is legal, whether Prop 8 was a No or Yes.
It was only a threat to gays who were married, or who want to marry in the future.
To claim it is anything else is either lying to others, or lying to self.

 

[Gishin]

This is as good a place as any other to put this. This is from a friend of mine.

I don't want this to get off on a gun rights tangent here, because that's not at issue. What's at issue is that if California can't pass this, we're royally screwed. My friend who had to move to Montreal in order to stay with his partner of 6 years because he couldn't get him a green card can't come back to the states. My brother's teacher who's facing incredible financial troubles due to her 20+ year partner's failing health can't file a joint tax return or keep the house they've been living in for over a decade without major legal issues. Longtime partners who want nothing more but to share their home and resources with children who have nothing else in the world are being told they can't because of someone's superstitions, while abusive families and single parents have no problems. My childhood friend, raised by lesbians, has a stranger as her next of kin because the state only recognizes the mother who bore her as her parent.

I've been beaten for being gay, I've had rocks and worse thrown at me, I've had my life and the life of my boyfriend threatened and then got asked to leave the bar we were in for causing a ruckus. I've known people hospitalized for being gay, I know people who have taken their life and yes, I know one person who was shot in the head alone on a beach three miles from his house for it. There isn't a homosexual in this country that doesn't have some story about how we've had to suffer to find places we're considered full citizens, and to have this perversion of law pushed through on the backs of our fellow minority communities cuts again. When I say I want to see someone dead for being a homophobe, I'm not saying that I advocate violence or hate... I'm just tired of the score being thousands for the hatemongers and zero for us.

So if you feel insulted, you're almost there. You should feel shamed.

 

[WatersMoon110]

I almost never report anything and those things that I report are almost entirely vulgarities or inappropriate pictures.
So unless a mod would correct me, it would seem that Conservatives just report a lot less.

Well, I try to report any rule breaking post that I come across, regardless of who said it, what it is being said about, and how I feel about its subject. I mean, the rules in here aren't unreasonable. In fact, I don't see how allowing people to reduce in maturity until the age of Kindergartners calling each other names until one starts crying is in any way helpful to a debate. The rule here are just to remind us to follow our values, even when we feel strongly about a topic. As a (fellow) Christian, you must understand that Jesus, the Christ, teaches us to love our neighbors as we love ourselves (as we love Him, even).

I'm sure there are many places that aren't Moderated as strictly (or nearly as well, from my perspective) where people who want to have a "Flame Off" could go and insult each other to their hearts content. There are also programs like Instant Messenger where two people could privately insult each other for hours on end.

But there are those of us in E&M, like myself, who consider ourselves adults. We don't want to offend people just for the "fun" of offending them, and we want to respectfully discuss things with people who have views that are different from our own. Sometimes, in the heat of the moment, we might let our emotions overwhelm our Reason, and end up saying something that breaks the rules.

But, I know that I see any Rule Breaking Post I've made (and I have made my share) teach me! By breaking the rules, I learn to better understand what the rules are, and I learn how to say the things I mean without breaking the rules. And, since I also don't want to ever offend anyone else, and go out of my way to not offend others, I see the rules as "extra protection" against offending others - because if I've broken a rule, it almost certainly made someone feel upset, angry, or hurt. I think that the rules are there to remind us to "take the high road" (or enter the "narrow gate") and be respectful of our fellow posters (and respectful to the purpose of CF).

And frankly, I guess I don't really mind that totally off-topic discussion is going on in here. At the very least, you debaters are keeping this Thread Bumped, so that everyone will get a chance to notice and read it. I just wish that we as members of E&M could refrain from posting flames in the very thread telling about the hard time our Mods are having cleaning up all of our other flames.

 

[stan1980]

I've never reported a single post, and I can honestly say I never will. It goes against my principals.

The insults I can handle, the thing that annoys me first and foremost, is people's poorly constructed arguments and lazy thinking. But hey, I can hardly report them for that. Even if I could get rid of them, then there'd be no one left to argue with anyway.

 

[WatersMoon110]

I've never reported a single post, and I can honestly say I never will. It goes against my principals.

You have people that run a school that get upset when you report posts? *wink*

What about actual Spam, like the odd user "selling" WOW Gold in a couple threads? Would it be against your principles to report something like that? Not that you need to report it, I'm surely on enough lately to report such things, but I'm simply curious about your values in this matter?

The insults I can handle, the thing that annoys me first and foremost, is people's poorly constructed arguments and lazy thinking. But hey, I can hardly report them for that. Even if I could get rid of them, then there'd be no one left to argue with anyway.

I worry that some insult might be seen by a lurker that is vulnerable and make them feel very upset. Our choice of words could be something that reduces another to tears without us ever knowing about it. I think it is better if we simply get rid of the insults, and the rules agree with me (even if that isn't the reason behind why they were made).

And yes, with the many of main RWAers on my ignore list, there are many fewer people to talk to. But, I can sometimes be too strongly influence by my emotions, and find that my mental state is more stable if I don't view posts by people who seem (to me) to be unable to control their temper.

 

[stan1980]

You have people that run a school that get upset when you report posts? *wink*

What about actual Spam, like the odd user "selling" WOW Gold in a couple threads? Would it be against your principles to report something like that? Not that you need to report it, I'm surely on enough lately to report such things, but I'm simply curious about your values in this matter?

Yes, principles. English has never has been my strong point never

Well I don't really see spam often enough for it to get on my nerves, it annoys me no more than any other advertisement on the board. If someone wants to get some free advertising in, it really isn't my concern.

I worry that some insult might be seen by a lurker that is vulnerable and make them feel very upset. Our choice of words could be something that reduces another to tears without us ever knowing about it. I think it is better if we simply get rid of the insults, and the rules agree with me (even if that isn't the reason behind why they were made).

I suppose it is the old playground mentality, never grass (snitch or whatever you want to call it). I can see why some might not agree with it, but I think it teaches you to sort out your own problems rather than running to authorities every time. I can see your point of view though as some people for whatever reason are more sensitive or less able to stick up for themselves. I think I just have a slightly irrational problem with authority though

Also, I do actually want to know what people are thinking, even if I don't like what they have to say, censorship kind of gets in the way of that a little.

And yes, with the many of main RWAers on my ignore list, there are many fewer people to talk to. But, I can sometimes be too strongly influence by my emotions, and find that my mental state is more stable if I don't view posts by people who seem (to me) to be unable to control their temper.

Oh, I couldn't put anyone on my ignore list, although I find life easier if I don't get too drawn in to some of the bigger debates, as I find you just end up going round in circles, and feeling like you want to smash your head on your desk.

 

[WatersMoon110]

I suppose it is the old playground mentality, never grass (snitch or whatever you want to call it). I can see why some might not agree with it, but I think it teaches you to sort out your own problems rather than running to authorities every time. I can see your point of view though as some people for whatever reason are more sensitive or less able to stick up for themselves. I think I just have a slightly irrational problem with authority though

I don't tend to respect authority just for being "the authority". But I respect Internet Forum Moderators, generally all of them, because of what exactly they are doing. I can't help but admire people who act as selflessly as Mods do.

You have to remember that these people are Unpaid Volunteers who agree to enforce rules that they generally didn't write, in a fair and objective manor. Even though they are still people who have opinions and views on different matters, they need to be able to lay their views aside and try and be as neutral and as fair as they can. Part of me wants to do anything I can (like Reporting problem posts) to help these people, because they certainly take on a lot of responsibility and stress for our "the regular posters" sake. Though, I will admit, I moderate a tiny section on another site. That section is a Discussion between Pro-Lifers and Pro-Choicers, inside of a "Guild" made for Pro-Lifers, and one of the rules is "Be Civil". I think I have dealt with some very interesting issues, including having to Ban a person who I liked and strongly agreed with, for breaking too many rules too many times - just because she got very upset at another member.

And I do feel that removing rule-breaking posts or bits of posts that are say, only insulting other people, is for the good of us all. Name calling belongs on the playground. E&M is a forum for Mature Adults (because who else could stand to keep coming back here day after day and talk about the things we talk about?), and I think that removing flames very much helps to keep it that way! Not everyone is as mature as you are, to merely ignore the flames.

Also, I do actually want to know what people are thinking, even if I don't like what they have to say, censorship kind of gets in the way of that a little.

Yes, but I want to teach people how to convey what they are thinking without slinging insults at others. I think that getting rid of posts or parts of posts as bits of punishment slowly helps people learn to choose a "better" way of posting. And, eventually, people who continue not to follow the (major) rules will get banned. It's like Natural Selection going on right here in Christian Forums.

And I support Natural Selection.

Oh, I couldn't put anyone on my ignore list, although I find life easier if I don't get too drawn in to some of the bigger debates, as I find you just end up going round in circles, and feeling like you want to smash your head on your desk.

I see it as getting many chances to explain my point to a particularly confused individual. That helps me get a tad less frustrated, at least sometimes. Also, I go and vent in other places, so that I don't break any rules in here.

 

[SiderealExalt]

Um...I think that if we can't even agree to "get along" in the thread that is telling us threads are being closed because of flaming, this forum might be headed for another complete closure to clean up all of the flames.

I don't want that to happen. I really hope that you also enjoy debating and posting in here to agree that you don't want that to happen.

I was responding to something Beanie said, so your response is rather bizarre. Anywho, the sky is not falling.

 

[WatersMoon110]

Anywho, the sky is not falling.

Is too!

*wink*

 

[katautumn]

This is as good a place as any other to put this. This is from a friend of mine.
<snip>

That is heartbreaking. It's easy for people who don't have to live in fear of being a minority to speak against the minorities. It's comfortable not having to live in fear. The only fear some people have is that their comfort may be compromised. You know, they may actually have to bear witness to two men in love holding hands in public. But they never actually live in fear that if they have children they will be taken from them because of their sexual orientation. They never have to live in fear that they may lose their job, their livelihood because of it. They never have to live in fear that their home may be vandalized or they may be beaten or verbally abused by others.

My husband's uncle has lived in the closet for years. He's almost eighty years old and is in failing health and still carries it around as his secret. He realized he was gay during a time when you could be committed to a mental institution against your will, imprisoned or worse, killed. He married a woman, adopted two children, and even kept up the charade long after his wife passed. There are some family suspicions that, perhaps, she had been a lesbian and the two of them marrying was the only way to remain safe. A few years ago, one of his closest friends (another gay man who was a senior adult who had lived a secret life) committed suicide.

It really is a shame.

 

[Atlantians]

The fact still remains - gays were allowed to marry, and did.

The fact remains that you are misrepresented what ocured.

The court overstepped its authority.

Prop 8 proposed to invalidate the marriage of these couples.

Invalidate marriages that were invalid anyway because the court overstepped its authority.

It didn't strengthen marriage. The divorce rate isn't going to go down.

No, that must be achieved in other ways.

It simply banned gay marriage by defining marriage as one man and one woman.

Defining it as it has always been defined, yes.

It is the first time that an Amendment has ever been added to block rights from anyone.

It was not a right. Defining it as it has always defined to prevent it from passing into meaninglessness is not 'taking away a right'.

You can claim that it was supporting traditional marriage, or defending it, but it did no such thing.

It did exactly that.

This is like voting for women to vote. One argues that allowing women to vote will be a threat to the government, and a threat to men's votes. However, it doesn't affect men at all. It affects women, however, if voted down.

How on earth does allowing or not allowing women to have a say in how they are governed have anything to do with defining marriage as it has always been defined?

Straight marriage is legal, whether Prop 8 was a No or Yes.

You are entirely missing the point.

It was only a threat to gays who were married, or who want to marry in the future. To claim it is anything else is either lying to others, or lying to self.

You seem to be incapable of seeing our point.

 

[OphidiaPhile]

The fact remains that you are misrepresented what ocured.

The court overstepped its authority.

The Supreme Courts job is to define what is and is not constitutional and that is exactly what they did so they in no way overstepped their bounds as you have done by proposing to change the constitution to reflect your own ignorance and bias.

Until such time as all people are free no one is truly free and you choose to opress those that you do not think exactly as you do but the thing is that neither the bible or Christianity defines the law or anything about it.