Attending An LCMS Church But Have Some Problems With Their Theology

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Hi my family is staunch LCMS and I attend a Missouri Synod Church with them but I have some issues with some of their theology and would like to address some of those issues here.

1. Infant Baptism - I see no evidence in scriptures in support of it.

2. Sabbath - I believe in keeping a Jewish Sabbath Holy.

3. Dietary Laws - I avoid unclean foods such as Pork.

These are the issues with LCMS theology I would like to address.
 

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1. Overall the Infant Baptism discussion tends to go in circles outside of Lutheran and other Traditional churches. The fact is that, from a Lutheran point of view, the scriptures certainly imply that as whole households were baptized, it is scriptural. The idea that a "whole household" did not include children is nonsense, IMO. That along with the ancient tradition implies it was this way from the start. Also, you seem to agree with some Jewish practices, it would stand to reason that as the Jewish practice has also always been to immerse infant converts in the Mikvah, it would also be so in the Church as the Baptism is a extension of the use of ritual cleansing.

2. There is nothing that says you can't keep a Saturday sabbath if you want to, but also understand it is not salvific. Lutherans believe the Sabbath is Sunday due to a number of reasons, but there really is no reason that you can't keep a Saturday Sabbath and go to church on Sunday from a Lutheran point of view, at least according to my previous Lutheran pastors. I did when I was Lutheran and do now still.

3. Lutheran theology, like most of Christendom, believes the dietary laws were abolished for all Christians, and never applied to Gentile Christians anyways. That said, there is no reason you can't keep the dietary laws if you wish to, I would assume, so long as you believed it had no bearing on your salvation.

May I ask if you are a Jewish believer or just someone that leans towards some Jewish practices?
 
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1 Infant Baptism: Just because there's no verse that says "Thou shalt baptize as an infant" doesn't make it wrong to do so, I mean is it wrong to pray for your infant? Why is baptizing them somehow unbiblical if they want they can choose to be baptized later on but an infant baptism is not wrong.

2. Sabbath: We see in the Bible that the reason people worship on Sunday now instead of Saturday is because Jesus rose from the grave on the 1st day of the week: Sunday, and that is considered The Lords Day, but if you are so adamant in keeping with the old Jewish customs I'm sure Jesus knows your heart and why you do it and is accepting of the Saturday sabbath as well.

3. Avoiding pork is no longer necessary, The Bible states that when Peter had a vision:
Acts 10:14 “Surely not, Lord!” Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.”

15 The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.” If you are not convinced by that I have listened to and read dozens of testimonies of people encountering Jesus in Near Death Experiences and Visions and Dreams and not once did Jesus say we need to keep with the old Jewish law of not eating pork. If you're still not convinced by The Bible and the testimony of dozens of people I do not know what will convince you.
 
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You're going to have a problem when you go to a church coop and somebody brought sausage. I doubt if you will find many [any?] Seventh Day Lutherans. Your opposed to Infant Baptism? Well, I think you ought to start looking for another church.
 
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1. Overall the Infant Baptism discussion tends to go in circles outside of Lutheran and other Traditional churches. The fact is that, from a Lutheran point of view, the scriptures certainly imply that as whole households were baptized, it is scriptural. The idea that a "whole household" did not include children is nonsense, IMO. That along with the ancient tradition implies it was this way from the start. Also, you seem to agree with some Jewish practices, it would stand to reason that as the Jewish practice has also always been to immerse infant converts in the Mikvah, it would also be so in the Church as the Baptism is a extension of the use of ritual cleansing.

2. There is nothing that says you can't keep a Saturday sabbath if you want to, but also understand it is not salvific. Lutherans believe the Sabbath is Sunday due to a number of reasons, but there really is no reason that you can't keep a Saturday Sabbath and go to church on Sunday from a Lutheran point of view, at least according to my previous Lutheran pastors. I did when I was Lutheran and do now still.

3. Lutheran theology, like most of Christendom, believes the dietary laws were abolished for all Christians, and never applied to Gentile Christians anyways. That said, there is no reason you can't keep the dietary laws if you wish to, I would assume, so long as you believed it had no bearing on your salvation.

May I ask if you are a Jewish believer or just someone that leans towards some Jewish practices?

Hi Steve thanks so much for your answers they were very well thought out and good.

I am Jewish Christian and I am torn between the Messianic religion and the LCMS.

1. I am not familiar with the Mikvah and I will need to do research on that. What evidence do you have from early church history that infants were baptized can you please provide me with that information?

2. Yes I agree that my LCMS Pastor is fine with me keeping a Saturday Sabbath and obeying the dietary laws even though he does not endorse those doctrines.

Jesus taught that whoever does and teaches the commandments will be called greatest in the kingdom and that is why I feel it is so important to observe those laws.
 
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2. Sabbath - I believe in keeping a Jewish Sabbath Holy.
FWIW, a local Lutheran church advertised Saturday evening services as well as Sunday morning services. I haven't driven by there in quite some time, and this was all very pre-pandemic, and I am unsure as to which synod it is. But Lutheran options for a Saturday service do or at least did exist in places.
 
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You're going to have a problem when you go to a church coop and somebody brought sausage. I doubt if you will find many [any?] Seventh Day Lutherans. Your opposed to Infant Baptism? Well, I think you ought to start looking for another church.

I'm not necessarily opposed to infant baptism but I am more or less undecided as I have not seen the scriptural evidence to support the doctrine so far.
 
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FWIW, a local Lutheran church advertised Saturday evening services as well as Sunday morning services. I haven't driven by there in quite some time, and this was all very pre-pandemic, and I am unsure as to which synod it is. But Lutheran options for a Saturday service do or at least did exist in places.

Thanks, my local church currently has no Saturday service but I will keep my eyes open for something like this in the future.
 
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Thanks, my local church currently has no Saturday service but I will keep my eyes open for something like this in the future.
My church (non-denominational) used to have Saturday evening services before the pandemic, but with everything they had to do to provide remote services, they axed it. We're probably not the only church that had to consolidate worship times.
 
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Hi Steve thanks so much for your answers they were very well thought out and good.
Not a problem, thank you :)
1. I am not familiar with the Mikvah and I will need to do research on that.
When a person converts to Judaism they must immerse in the mikvah, much like Jewish people immerse in it for a number of reasons. A mikvah can be man made pool, or flowing water like a river or ocean. When a person with young children converts they will have the kids immersed too. As far as I am aware this has always been the custom in Judaism.
What evidence do you have from early church history that infants were baptized can you please provide me with that information?
It is circumstantial at best, much like the scriptures. That is why the debate rages among Christians to this day. In the end there just is not a clear picture of what scripture says. However, it seems to have been tradition since the ancient church, and something the Lutheran church (and all the ancient Traditional churches too) teaches.

Oh, as for a Saturday church service....while nice, it likely is in the evening and that would be after the sabbath is over, usually. Those are Vigil services, like we also see in the Catholic church, and they fulfil the Sunday obligation in the Catholic church due to the same idea of a day beginning the evening before. Lutheran's don't have an "obligation" like the RCC does, but the vigil service is the same type.
 
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1. Overall the Infant Baptism discussion tends to go in circles outside of Lutheran and other Traditional churches. The fact is that, from a Lutheran point of view, the scriptures certainly imply that as whole households were baptized, it is scriptural. The idea that a "whole household" did not include children is nonsense, IMO. That along with the ancient tradition implies it was this way from the start. Also, you seem to agree with some Jewish practices, it would stand to reason that as the Jewish practice has also always been to immerse infant converts in the Mikvah, it would also be so in the Church as the Baptism is a extension of the use of ritual cleansing.

2. There is nothing that says you can't keep a Saturday sabbath if you want to, but also understand it is not salvific. Lutherans believe the Sabbath is Sunday due to a number of reasons, but there really is no reason that you can't keep a Saturday Sabbath and go to church on Sunday from a Lutheran point of view, at least according to my previous Lutheran pastors. I did when I was Lutheran and do now still.

3. Lutheran theology, like most of Christendom, believes the dietary laws were abolished for all Christians, and never applied to Gentile Christians anyways. That said, there is no reason you can't keep the dietary laws if you wish to, I would assume, so long as you believed it had no bearing on your salvation.

May I ask if you are a Jewish believer or just someone that leans towards some Jewish practices?
Be someone Jewish or not, It is not a sacrament of the Christian church.
 
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tampasteve

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Be someone Jewish or not, It is not a sacrament of the Christian church.
Baptism? It certainly is a Sacrament, one of two for the Lutheran churches - the forum this thread is in.

If you mean Mikvah, I agree. But the practice is also where Baptism originates, hence why John was doing it in the Jordan and people knew what was going on. He was not baptizing for the same reasons as the reasons we baptize, he even says that. The Jordan is a natural Mikvah that people have been going to for millennia for ritual cleansing, similar to what John was doing.
 
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Hi my family is staunch LCMS and I attend a Missouri Synod Church with them but I have some issues with some of their theology and would like to address some of those issues here.

1. Infant Baptism - I see no evidence in scriptures in support of it.

2. Sabbath - I believe in keeping a Jewish Sabbath Holy.

3. Dietary Laws - I avoid unclean foods such as Pork.

These are the issues with LCMS theology I would like to address.

1- The LCMS pastor who introduced me to my wife, Andrew A. Das, wrote this book
https://www.amazon.com/Baptized-Into-Gods-Family-Doctrine/dp/0810004097

I would check with the pastor if he has a copy or can get a hold of a copy.

2 & 3 - Talk to the pastor about your concerns. There are some good LCMS Lutherans here including one pastor but sitting down and having a conversation with the pastor at the church would be far more productive.
 
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Baptism? It certainly is a Sacrament, one of two for the Lutheran churches - the forum this thread is in.

If you mean Mikvah, I agree. But the practice is also where Baptism originates, hence why John was doing it in the Jordan and people knew what was going on. He was not baptizing for the same reasons as the reasons we baptize, he even says that. The Jordan is a natural Mikvah that people have been going to for millennia for ritual cleansing, similar to what John was doing.

Where is the word "sacrament" found in scripture?
 
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Baptism? It certainly is a Sacrament, one of two for the Lutheran churches - the forum this thread is in.
Baptism is a sacrament.

If you mean Mikvah, I agree.
I was speaking of Jewish sacraments.
But the practice is also where Baptism originates, hence why John was doing it in the Jordan and people knew what was going on. He was not baptizing for the same reasons as the reasons we baptize, he even says that. The Jordan is a natural Mikvah that people have been going to for millennia for ritual cleansing, similar to what John was doing.
It was foreshadowed in the law of Moses. Our baptism is in the name of the father ,son,and holy spirit.
 
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2. Yes I agree that my LCMS Pastor is fine with me keeping a Saturday Sabbath and obeying the dietary laws even though he does not endorse those doctrines.

Jesus taught that whoever does and teaches the commandments will be called greatest in the kingdom and that is why I feel it is so important to observe those laws.


About the last paragraph (only), it's good to hear (whether for a first time or again, for any of us), the Words (praise be to God) --

Matthew 5:19 So then, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do likewise will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever practices and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 23:11 The greatest among you shall be your servant.

So, as you can see, one isn't aiming in the right way (towards being greater in the Kingdom of heaven) from having kept all manner of particular smaller laws of Israel such as dietary laws, but rather, by doing the 2 greatest commandments the most fully, since to more fully "love your neighbor as yourself" includes to be servant to all. So, instead of how you follow such as dietary laws (while perfectly fine in themselves), it's how well you love others and serve others, and the Lord.
 
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Hey Michael. Thanks for raising your concerns! It's always good to reach out to your local pastor for a chat, but perhaps I can help a bit. There's so much to say about all of this, but I'll mainly focus on infant Baptism for now:

Baptism
It may be good to start with that God's Word does not forbid Baptism of infants. That's only assumed if we think that Baptism is a work that we do for ourselves or for God. But this is not how Baptism is expressed in Scriptures. The Christian Church is commanded to Baptise in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, but the individual receives Baptism as a gift. That is, God gives the gifts of His Word and Sacraments through the Church. So God is the one doing the work, and His Law and Gospel, and Baptism and the Eucharist are gifts.

Who can receive Baptism?
Everyone. Christ has commanded us to make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and that certainly includes children. We can think of it this way: Make disciples and then baptise them. And also, make disciples by baptising them. Both are true.

God wishes to save children
God's love for children is apparent throughout the Bible. In Matthew 19:14 and Matthew 18:10-14, our Lord teaches us that He invites children into His kingdom.

The Gospel is for all
It’s true that children are pure relative to adults, but every human being is a sinner before God. We are all born in sin and are by nature children of wrath (Ephesians 2:3). Psalm 51:5 we read: “Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.” Yet, we are not without hope, for the Gospel is also for all. In Acts 2:38-39, we read that Baptism is for us and for our children, and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to Himself. That is, God's promise of grace is for all, regardless of age, and it is given through His Word and Sacraments as gifts to us. An adult and a child are equally helpless to save themselves — they both need Jesus.

One must be born of water and the Spirit
Our Lord says in John 3:5: “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” To be in the kingdom of God means to have been born of water and the Holy Spirit, which means Baptism. So we can rightly understand from this that children are ordinarily adopted and welcomed into the kingdom of God through Baptism. An adult may hear the Gospel and believe, or he may hear the Gospel, be baptised and believe, but a child can receive the Gospel through Baptism and be raised in the faith.

Children are to be raised in the faith
The model for Church membership in the Bible is not that children should give their life to Jesus when they reach a certain age. That idea is foreign to the Scriptures. In the Great Shema, in Deuteronomy 6:4-8, we get a clear command and picture of what it means to be God's people and that this very much includes children. The Bible does not command children to wait to accept God, but rather that children can belong to God and be raised in the faith.

Baptism and its relationship to circumcision
If we understand what circumcision is and consider how central it is in the Old Testament, it gives us context for Baptism in the New Testament. When Paul in Colossians 2 connects circumcision to Baptism, we should contemplate the whole body of doctrine regarding circumcision, and understand that it found its fulfilment in Christ, who gives us Baptism as a new kind of circumcision; a circumcision of the heart by the Holy Spirit (Romans 2). According to the old Law, circumcision was ordinarily for baby boys, though also for adult men, however, we can rejoice in that the gift of Baptism is certainly nothing less than that — it is greater! It is a gift for everyone!

Children can have faith
It would be a mistake to confuse faith with intellectual ability, because we know from God's Word that the Holy Spirit can work faith in children, even in the womb. We can call to mind Psalm 71:5-6 or Matthew 21:16, for example. Or consider how John, filled with the Holy Spirit, leapt for joy in Elizabeth's womb in Luke 1! He certainly had faith. Faith, as we learn in Ephesians 2:8 is a gift from God, and this gift is ordinarily given to children through Baptism, but also through God’s Word.

And very quickly:

Sabbath
We Christians do keep the Sabbath — the true Sabbath in Christ. We can observe the Sabbath according to the Old Law if we want to, but there is no requirement to do so, for it served to foreshadow Christ, and now that Christ has come, we have our peace in Him. How we do uphold it now, however, is to fear and love God so that we do not despise preaching and His Word, but hold it sacred and gladly hear and learn it. Paul says that we are not to judge one another regarding the observance of the Sabbath in Colossians 2:16, and there is evidence in the New Testament itself that the early Church gathered together for worship on the Lord's Day, Sunday. They did this out of their freedom in Christ, which is what we still do now.

Dietary Laws
In Christ, we have the freedom to eat whatever is set before us with a clear conscience. The clearest and simplest commandment regarding the observance of the Old Law can be found in Acts 15, where the Jerusalem Council tells us this: "You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell." Here we see the great freedom we have in Christ, who fulfilled the Law for us, that we may live in Him.

Sorry for the lengthy post! God's blessings to you!
 
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Baptism is a sacrament.

I was speaking of Jewish sacraments.

It was foreshadowed in the law of Moses. Our baptism is in the name of the father ,son,and holy spirit.
Agree on all accounts :)
 
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Where is the word "sacrament" found in scripture?
It's not, but neither is Trinity or many other theological concepts we have invented words to describe. The idea of a Sacrament, something instituted by Jesus himself is of course in scripture. Hence why Lutherans only observe the two - Baptism and The Lords Supper, as these two were the two actions and observances for Christians/followers of Christ instituted by Christ himself.
 
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Hey Michael. Thanks for raising your concerns! It's always good to reach out to your local pastor for a chat, but perhaps I can help a bit. There's so much to say about all of this, but I'll mainly focus on infant Baptism for now:

Baptism
It may be good to start with that God's Word does not forbid Baptism of infants. That's only assumed if we think that Baptism is a work that we do for ourselves or for God. But this is not how Baptism is expressed in Scriptures. The Christian Church is commanded to Baptise in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, but the individual receives Baptism as a gift. That is, God gives the gifts of His Word and Sacraments through the Church. So God is the one doing the work, and His Law and Gospel, and Baptism and the Eucharist are gifts.

Who can receive Baptism?
Everyone. Christ has commanded us to make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and that certainly includes children. We can think of it this way: Make disciples and then baptise them. And also, make disciples by baptising them. Both are true.

God wishes to save children
God's love for children is apparent throughout the Bible. In Matthew 19:14 and Matthew 18:10-14, our Lord teaches us that He invites children into His kingdom.

The Gospel is for all
It’s true that children are pure relative to adults, but every human being is a sinner before God. We are all born in sin and are by nature children of wrath (Ephesians 2:3). Psalm 51:5 we read: “Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.” Yet, we are not without hope, for the Gospel is also for all. In Acts 2:38-39, we read that Baptism is for us and for our children, and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to Himself. That is, God's promise of grace is for all, regardless of age, and it is given through His Word and Sacraments as gifts to us. An adult and a child are equally helpless to save themselves — they both need Jesus.

One must be born of water and the Spirit
Our Lord says in John 3:5: “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” To be in the kingdom of God means to have been born of water and the Holy Spirit, which means Baptism. So we can rightly understand from this that children are ordinarily adopted and welcomed into the kingdom of God through Baptism. An adult may hear the Gospel and believe, or he may hear the Gospel, be baptised and believe, but a child can receive the Gospel through Baptism and be raised in the faith.

Children are to be raised in the faith
The model for Church membership in the Bible is not that children should give their life to Jesus when they reach a certain age. That idea is foreign to the Scriptures. In the Great Shema, in Deuteronomy 6:4-8, we get a clear command and picture of what it means to be God's people and that this very much includes children. The Bible does not command children to wait to accept God, but rather that children can belong to God and be raised in the faith.

Baptism and its relationship to circumcision
If we understand what circumcision is and consider how central it is in the Old Testament, it gives us context for Baptism in the New Testament. When Paul in Colossians 2 connects circumcision to Baptism, we should contemplate the whole body of doctrine regarding circumcision, and understand that it found its fulfilment in Christ, who gives us Baptism as a new kind of circumcision; a circumcision of the heart by the Holy Spirit (Romans 2). According to the old Law, circumcision was ordinarily for baby boys, though also for adult men, however, we can rejoice in that the gift of Baptism is certainly nothing less than that — it is greater! It is a gift for everyone!

Children can have faith
It would be a mistake to confuse faith with intellectual ability, because we know from God's Word that the Holy Spirit can work faith in children, even in the womb. We can call to mind Psalm 71:5-6 or Matthew 21:16, for example. Or consider how John, filled with the Holy Spirit, leapt for joy in Elizabeth's womb in Luke 1! He certainly had faith. Faith, as we learn in Ephesians 2:8 is a gift from God, and this gift is ordinarily given to children through Baptism, but also through God’s Word.

And very quickly:

Sabbath
We Christians do keep the Sabbath — the true Sabbath in Christ. We can observe the Sabbath according to the Old Law if we want to, but there is no requirement to do so, for it served to foreshadow Christ, and now that Christ has come, we have our peace in Him. How we do uphold it now, however, is to fear and love God so that we do not despise preaching and His Word, but hold it sacred and gladly hear and learn it. Paul says that we are not to judge one another regarding the observance of the Sabbath in Colossians 2:16, and there is evidence in the New Testament itself that the early Church gathered together for worship on the Lord's Day, Sunday. They did this out of their freedom in Christ, which is what we still do now.

Dietary Laws
In Christ, we have the freedom to eat whatever is set before us with a clear conscience. The clearest and simplest commandment regarding the observance of the Old Law can be found in Acts 15, where the Jerusalem Council tells us this: "You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell." Here we see the great freedom we have in Christ, who fulfilled the Law for us, that we may live in Him.

Sorry for the lengthy post! God's blessings to you!

Thanks so much for your post it was very informative especially the part on infant baptism.
 
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