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Read my post 18.Thanks BobRyan and HIM, but who is God paying the debt to? Himself? It doesn't make much sense, except that we are dealing with the mystery of the Trinity, where there is diversity in unity. And I think they can all have something helpful to say about atonement. Don't have to be mutually exclusive.
Bob, it is never "just" to kill an innocent even willing person and allow the guilty deserving of death person go free.God pays by being tortured so he does not get paid nor does the devil get paid.
The "payment" is in the form "Law says the criminal gets death penalty for this crime" so then someone "pays that death penalty by being killed". Nobody 'gets paid' in that scenario. What happens is "justice".
1. The Law is upheld - because its penalty is upheld. Our death is paid by one who is our substitute
2. The criminal is removed -- death to self and the new birth
3. The removal of the criminal is done in such a way that is a dissincentive to any more crime in the future. The solution requires the death of our Lord and Savior. Something no one would wish to see repeated or to be the cause of.
I agree that some pieces of various ones in the list all get applied ...
When as you suggest "debt paid to the Law", the debt is not being forgiven, but paid, yet God forgives our debt so it is not being paid.The debt is "paid" to God's justice, just as prison time is the debt "paid" to the law (justice).
Adam could be forgiven.I believe that ATONEMENT began with Adam !
If you disagree, HOW , then was Adam SAVED ?
Or do you believe that Adam was LOST ?
dan p
What law forbids anyone from paying the debts his adopted brothers owe to their father who is suing them for what they justly owe him?Bob, it is never "just" to kill an innocent even willing person and allow the guilty deserving of death person go free.
You might read my post 18.
By faith in the promise (Ge 3:15, woman's seed, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16), who paid the debt of death on the cross.Adam could be forgiven.
Are you serious?When as you suggest "debt paid to the Law", the debt is not being forgiven, but paid, yet God forgives our debt so it is not being paid.
Just this morning I was again reading through Salvifici Doloris. It is one of the best reflections on sufferings out there and I think even non Catholics could benefit from reading it.Did God forgive your debt 100%, because if God did there is nothing left to pay?
Just this morning I was again reading through Salvifici Doloris. It is one of the best reflections on sufferings out there and I think even non Catholics could benefit from reading it.
In it Suffering itself is also redeemed. That is a new twist I think, at least for me.
13. But in order to perceive the true answer to the "why" of suffering, we must look to the revelation of divine love, the ultimate source of the meaning of everything that exists. Love is also the richest source of the meaning of suffering, which always remains a mystery: we are conscious of the insufficiency and inadequacy of our explanations. Christ causes us to enter into the mystery and to discover the "why" of suffering, as far as we are capable of grasping the sublimity of divine love.
In order to discover the profound meaning of suffering, following the revealed word of God, we must open ourselves wide to the human subject in his manifold potentiality. We must above all accept the light of Revelation not only insofar as it expresses the transcendent order of justice but also insofar as it illuminates this order with Love, as the definitive source of everything that exists. Love is: also the fullest source of the answer to the question of the meaning of suffering. This answer has been given by God to man in the Cross of Jesus Christ.
The best "Theory of redemption" is Love.
in #15
As a result of Christ's salvific work, man exists on earth with the hope of eternal life and holiness. And even though the victory over sin and death achieved by Christ in his Cross and Resurrection does not abolish temporal suffering from human life, nor free from suffering the whole historical dimension of human existence, it nevertheless throws a new light upon this dimension and upon every suffering: the light of salvation.
The light of salvation now thrown upon human suffering
in #19
In the Cross of Christ not only is the Redemption accomplished through suffering, but also human suffering itself has been redeemed,.
And the Apostle Paul in the Letter to the Galatians will say: "He gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age", and in the First Letter to the Corinthians: "You were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body ".
With these and similar words the witnesses of the New Covenant speak of the greatness of the Redemption, accomplished through the suffering of Christ. The Redeemer suffered in place of man and for man. Every man has his own share in the Redemption. Each one is also called to share in that suffering through which the Redemption was accomplished. He is called to share in that suffering through which all human suffering has also been redeemed. In bringing about the Redemption through suffering, Christ has also raised human suffering to the level of the Redemption. Thus each man, in his suffering, can also become a sharer in the redemptive suffering of Christ.
Even though redeemed we still must suffer.
24. Nevertheless, the Apostle's experiences as a sharer in the sufferings of Christ go even further. In the Letter to the Colossians we read the words which constitute as it were the final stage of the spiritual journey in relation to suffering: "Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the Church". And in another Letter he asks his readers: "Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ?".
That is not referring to an incompleteness in Christ's suffering and finished work, but to the additional suffering required of those giving the gospel to the nations.For, whoever suffers in union with Christ— just as the Apostle Paul bears his "tribulations" in union with Christ— not only receives from Christ that strength already referred to but also "completes" by his suffering "what is lacking in Christ's afflictions".
There is a "death" (our separation from God), sometimes referred to as Spiritual death, when we first sin. Ther is also physical death which was the result of Adam and Eve sinning, which we will all go through if the Lod does not come in our lifetime. There is also the second death which those who have gone to their physical death denying God and/or Christ (sinners) will go through. The innocent baby may physically die, but will not experience the second death.Are you serious?
Jesus paid our debt (death, the penalty for sin, Ro 6:23) on the cross.
It's the fundamental gospel.
God can forgive the debt or do you believe God lacks something and does not have the ability to forgive our debt, without Christ doing something?By faith in the promise (Ge 3:15, woman's seed, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16), who paid the debt of death on the cross.
The death which is the penalty of sin is the death of the body.There is a "death" (our separation from God), sometimes referred to as Spiritual death, when we first sin.
He does just that in the resurrection to immortality.Ther is also physical death which was the result of Adam and Eve sinning, which we will all go through if the Lod does not come in our lifetime. There is also the second death which those who have gone to their physical death denying God and/or Christ (sinners) will go through. The innocent baby may physically die, but will not experience the second death.
Jesus did not take away the death resulting from the separation from God sin still produces, physical death sin produced
He does just that for sinners through their faith in and trust on his person and atoning work (blood, Ro 3:25) for the remission of their sin.nor the second death which sinners receive at judgement.
The accounting term, "forgive," is to cancel debt because of payment.The debt sin creates God can forgive and that is the wy that debt of death is removed.
A brother cannot have the judge take his life or do jail time for his brother, since that is against all laws I have heard of and it is just not just. Yes, someone can pay your fine, since the courts do not address that.What law forbids anyone from paying the debts his adopted brothers owe to their father who is suing them for what they justly owe him?
This starts getting heavy and we need to think about it.Just this morning I was again reading through Salvifici Doloris. It is one of the best reflections on sufferings out there and I think even non Catholics could benefit from reading it.
In it Suffering itself is also redeemed. That is a new twist I think, at least for me.
13. But in order to perceive the true answer to the "why" of suffering, we must look to the revelation of divine love, the ultimate source of the meaning of everything that exists. Love is also the richest source of the meaning of suffering, which always remains a mystery: we are conscious of the insufficiency and inadequacy of our explanations. Christ causes us to enter into the mystery and to discover the "why" of suffering, as far as we are capable of grasping the sublimity of divine love.
In order to discover the profound meaning of suffering, following the revealed word of God, we must open ourselves wide to the human subject in his manifold potentiality. We must above all accept the light of Revelation not only insofar as it expresses the transcendent order of justice but also insofar as it illuminates this order with Love, as the definitive source of everything that exists. Love is: also the fullest source of the answer to the question of the meaning of suffering. This answer has been given by God to man in the Cross of Jesus Christ.
The best "Theory of redemption" is Love.
in #15
As a result of Christ's salvific work, man exists on earth with the hope of eternal life and holiness. And even though the victory over sin and death achieved by Christ in his Cross and Resurrection does not abolish temporal suffering from human life, nor free from suffering the whole historical dimension of human existence, it nevertheless throws a new light upon this dimension and upon every suffering: the light of salvation.
The light of salvation now thrown upon human suffering
in #19
In the Cross of Christ not only is the Redemption accomplished through suffering, but also human suffering itself has been redeemed,.
And the Apostle Paul in the Letter to the Galatians will say: "He gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age", and in the First Letter to the Corinthians: "You were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body ".
With these and similar words the witnesses of the New Covenant speak of the greatness of the Redemption, accomplished through the suffering of Christ. The Redeemer suffered in place of man and for man. Every man has his own share in the Redemption. Each one is also called to share in that suffering through which the Redemption was accomplished. He is called to share in that suffering through which all human suffering has also been redeemed. In bringing about the Redemption through suffering, Christ has also raised human suffering to the level of the Redemption. Thus each man, in his suffering, can also become a sharer in the redemptive suffering of Christ.
Even though redeemed we still must suffer.
24. Nevertheless, the Apostle's experiences as a sharer in the sufferings of Christ go even further. In the Letter to the Colossians we read the words which constitute as it were the final stage of the spiritual journey in relation to suffering: "Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the Church". And in another Letter he asks his readers: "Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ?".
For, whoever suffers in union with Christ— just as the Apostle Paul bears his "tribulations" in union with Christ— not only receives from Christ that strength already referred to but also "completes" by his suffering "what is lacking in Christ's afflictions".
I have an MBA and took graduate level accounting and can tell you: Forgiveness does not mean the debt was paid, if the debt is paid it is not forgiven but paid.The death which is the penalty of sin is the death of the body.
He does just that in the resurrection to immortality.
He does just that for sinners through their faith in and trust on his person and atoning work (blood, Ro 3:25) for the remission of their sin.
The accounting term, "forgive," is to cancel debt because of payment.
That's human court. . .is it against the law in God's Court?A brother cannot have the judge take his life or do jail time for his brother, since that is against all laws I have heard of
Which is someone else paying your debt for transgressing the law, just as Jesus did on the cross according to God's Court.and it is just not just. Yes, someone can pay your fine, since the courts do not address that.
Your knowledge of the background of accounting is lacking.I have an MBA and took graduate level accounting and can tell you: Forgiveness does not mean the debt was paid, if the debt is paid it is not forgiven but paid
The mortality of the body is temporary, they do not remain dead forever, we are set free of it at the resurrection, just as we are set free of sin (made sinless) at the resurrection.Christians are still experiencing the death of the body.
That is a sadistic, human, extra-Biblical notion of forgiveness, nowhere found in Scripture, the stench of which rises to the heavenly Court to be spit out and trampled on as the insufferable demeaning notion that it is.This starts getting heavy and we need to think about it.
God would have no problem forgiving, God is totally fair and just, but any rebellious disobedient child needs more than just forgiveness
Where do we find this miserable gospel-denying notion presented, supported or asserted in Scripture, the only authority for God's truth?Please think up some questions to ask me.
Not necessarily. If you break my window paying for it does not mean you will be forgiven by me.Forgiveness means "cancellation of the debt," which can be by payment or otherwise.
The "innocent" in this case is the Law Giver who himself chooses this solution.Bob, it is never "just" to kill an innocent even willing person and allow the guilty deserving of death person go free.
You might read my post 18.
True - but if you pay for it - you are the one owed, you are the one paying.Not necessarily. If you break my window paying for it does not mean you will be forgiven by me.
So words can have only one meaning. . .that explains a lot.Not necessarily. If you break my window paying for it does not mean you will be forgiven by me.
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