Atonement Theories

[bling]

Thanks BobRyan and HIM, but who is God paying the debt to? Himself? It doesn't make much sense, except that we are dealing with the mystery of the Trinity, where there is diversity in unity. And I think they can all have something helpful to say about atonement. Don't have to be mutually exclusive.

Read my post 18.

 

[bling]

God pays by being tortured so he does not get paid nor does the devil get paid.

The "payment" is in the form "Law says the criminal gets death penalty for this crime" so then someone "pays that death penalty by being killed". Nobody 'gets paid' in that scenario. What happens is "justice".

1. The Law is upheld - because its penalty is upheld. Our death is paid by one who is our substitute
2. The criminal is removed -- death to self and the new birth
3. The removal of the criminal is done in such a way that is a dissincentive to any more crime in the future. The solution requires the death of our Lord and Savior. Something no one would wish to see repeated or to be the cause of.

I agree that some pieces of various ones in the list all get applied ...

Bob, it is never "just" to kill an innocent even willing person and allow the guilty deserving of death person go free.
You might read my post 18.

 

[bling]

The debt is "paid" to God's justice, just as prison time is the debt "paid" to the law (justice).

When as you suggest "debt paid to the Law", the debt is not being forgiven, but paid, yet God forgives our debt so it is not being paid.

 

[bling]

I believe that ATONEMENT began with Adam !

If you disagree, HOW , then was Adam SAVED ?

Or do you believe that Adam was LOST ?

dan p

Adam could be forgiven.

 

[Clare73]

Bob, it is never "just" to kill an innocent even willing person and allow the guilty deserving of death person go free.
You might read my post 18.

What law forbids anyone from paying the debts his adopted brothers owe to their father who is suing them for what they justly owe him?

 

[Clare73]

Adam could be forgiven.

By faith in the promise (Ge 3:15, woman's seed, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16), who paid the debt of death on the cross.

 

[Clare73]

When as you suggest "debt paid to the Law", the debt is not being forgiven, but paid, yet God forgives our debt so it is not being paid.

Are you serious?

Jesus paid our debt (death, the penalty for sin, Ro 6:23) on the cross.

It's the fundamental gospel.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Did God forgive your debt 100%, because if God did there is nothing left to pay?

Just this morning I was again reading through Salvifici Doloris. It is one of the best reflections on sufferings out there and I think even non Catholics could benefit from reading it.

In it Suffering itself is also redeemed. That is a new twist I think, at least for me.

13. But in order to perceive the true answer to the "why" of suffering, we must look to the revelation of divine love, the ultimate source of the meaning of everything that exists. Love is also the richest source of the meaning of suffering, which always remains a mystery: we are conscious of the insufficiency and inadequacy of our explanations. Christ causes us to enter into the mystery and to discover the "why" of suffering, as far as we are capable of grasping the sublimity of divine love.

In order to discover the profound meaning of suffering, following the revealed word of God, we must open ourselves wide to the human subject in his manifold potentiality. We must above all accept the light of Revelation not only insofar as it expresses the transcendent order of justice but also insofar as it illuminates this order with Love, as the definitive source of everything that exists. Love is: also the fullest source of the answer to the question of the meaning of suffering. This answer has been given by God to man in the Cross of Jesus Christ.

The best "Theory of redemption" is Love.

in #15
As a result of Christ's salvific work, man exists on earth with the hope of eternal life and holiness. And even though the victory over sin and death achieved by Christ in his Cross and Resurrection does not abolish temporal suffering from human life, nor free from suffering the whole historical dimension of human existence, it nevertheless throws a new light upon this dimension and upon every suffering: the light of salvation.

The light of salvation now thrown upon human suffering

in #19
In the Cross of Christ not only is the Redemption accomplished through suffering, but also human suffering itself has been redeemed,.

And the Apostle Paul in the Letter to the Galatians will say: "He gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age", and in the First Letter to the Corinthians: "You were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body ".

With these and similar words the witnesses of the New Covenant speak of the greatness of the Redemption, accomplished through the suffering of Christ. The Redeemer suffered in place of man and for man. Every man has his own share in the Redemption. Each one is also called to share in that suffering through which the Redemption was accomplished. He is called to share in that suffering through which all human suffering has also been redeemed. In bringing about the Redemption through suffering, Christ has also raised human suffering to the level of the Redemption. Thus each man, in his suffering, can also become a sharer in the redemptive suffering of Christ.

Even though redeemed we still must suffer.

24. Nevertheless, the Apostle's experiences as a sharer in the sufferings of Christ go even further. In the Letter to the Colossians we read the words which constitute as it were the final stage of the spiritual journey in relation to suffering: "Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the Church". And in another Letter he asks his readers: "Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ?".

For, whoever suffers in union with Christ— just as the Apostle Paul bears his "tribulations" in union with Christ— not only receives from Christ that strength already referred to but also "completes" by his suffering "what is lacking in Christ's afflictions".

Salvifici Doloris (February 11, 1984)

www.vatican.va

 

[Clare73]

Just this morning I was again reading through Salvifici Doloris. It is one of the best reflections on sufferings out there and I think even non Catholics could benefit from reading it.

In it Suffering itself is also redeemed. That is a new twist I think, at least for me.

13. But in order to perceive the true answer to the "why" of suffering, we must look to the revelation of divine love, the ultimate source of the meaning of everything that exists. Love is also the richest source of the meaning of suffering, which always remains a mystery: we are conscious of the insufficiency and inadequacy of our explanations. Christ causes us to enter into the mystery and to discover the "why" of suffering, as far as we are capable of grasping the sublimity of divine love.

In order to discover the profound meaning of suffering, following the revealed word of God, we must open ourselves wide to the human subject in his manifold potentiality. We must above all accept the light of Revelation not only insofar as it expresses the transcendent order of justice but also insofar as it illuminates this order with Love, as the definitive source of everything that exists. Love is: also the fullest source of the answer to the question of the meaning of suffering. This answer has been given by God to man in the Cross of Jesus Christ.

The best "Theory of redemption" is Love.

in #15
As a result of Christ's salvific work, man exists on earth with the hope of eternal life and holiness. And even though the victory over sin and death achieved by Christ in his Cross and Resurrection does not abolish temporal suffering from human life, nor free from suffering the whole historical dimension of human existence, it nevertheless throws a new light upon this dimension and upon every suffering: the light of salvation.

The light of salvation now thrown upon human suffering

in #19
In the Cross of Christ not only is the Redemption accomplished through suffering, but also human suffering itself has been redeemed,.

And the Apostle Paul in the Letter to the Galatians will say: "He gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age", and in the First Letter to the Corinthians: "You were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body ".

With these and similar words the witnesses of the New Covenant speak of the greatness of the Redemption, accomplished through the suffering of Christ. The Redeemer suffered in place of man and for man. Every man has his own share in the Redemption. Each one is also called to share in that suffering through which the Redemption was accomplished. He is called to share in that suffering through which all human suffering has also been redeemed. In bringing about the Redemption through suffering, Christ has also raised human suffering to the level of the Redemption. Thus each man, in his suffering, can also become a sharer in the redemptive suffering of Christ.

Even though redeemed we still must suffer.

24. Nevertheless, the Apostle's experiences as a sharer in the sufferings of Christ go even further. In the Letter to the Colossians we read the words which constitute as it were the final stage of the spiritual journey in relation to suffering: "Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the Church". And in another Letter he asks his readers: "Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ?".

For, whoever suffers in union with Christ— just as the Apostle Paul bears his "tribulations" in union with Christ— not only receives from Christ that strength already referred to but also "completes" by his suffering "what is lacking in Christ's afflictions".

That is not referring to an incompleteness in Christ's suffering and finished work, but to the additional suffering required of those giving the gospel to the nations.

 

[bling]

Are you serious?

Jesus paid our debt (death, the penalty for sin, Ro 6:23) on the cross.

It's the fundamental gospel.

There is a "death" (our separation from God), sometimes referred to as Spiritual death, when we first sin. Ther is also physical death which was the result of Adam and Eve sinning, which we will all go through if the Lod does not come in our lifetime. There is also the second death which those who have gone to their physical death denying God and/or Christ (sinners) will go through. The innocent baby may physically die, but will not experience the second death.
Jesus did not take away the death resulting from the separation from God sin still produces, physical death sin produced nor the second death which sinners receive at judgement.
The debt sin creates God can forgive and that is the wy that debt of death is removed.

 

[bling]

By faith in the promise (Ge 3:15, woman's seed, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16), who paid the debt of death on the cross.

God can forgive the debt or do you believe God lacks something and does not have the ability to forgive our debt, without Christ doing something?

 

[Clare73]

There is a "death" (our separation from God), sometimes referred to as Spiritual death, when we first sin.

The death which is the penalty of sin is the death of the body.

Ther is also physical death which was the result of Adam and Eve sinning, which we will all go through if the Lod does not come in our lifetime. There is also the second death which those who have gone to their physical death denying God and/or Christ (sinners) will go through. The innocent baby may physically die, but will not experience the second death.
Jesus did not take away the death resulting from the separation from God sin still produces, physical death sin produced

He does just that in the resurrection to immortality.

nor the second death which sinners receive at judgement.

He does just that for sinners through their faith in and trust on his person and atoning work (blood, Ro 3:25) for the remission of their sin.

The debt sin creates God can forgive and that is the wy that debt of death is removed.

The accounting term, "forgive," is to cancel debt because of payment.

 

[bling]

What law forbids anyone from paying the debts his adopted brothers owe to their father who is suing them for what they justly owe him?

A brother cannot have the judge take his life or do jail time for his brother, since that is against all laws I have heard of and it is just not just. Yes, someone can pay your fine, since the courts do not address that.

Just this morning I was again reading through Salvifici Doloris. It is one of the best reflections on sufferings out there and I think even non Catholics could benefit from reading it.

In it Suffering itself is also redeemed. That is a new twist I think, at least for me.

13. But in order to perceive the true answer to the "why" of suffering, we must look to the revelation of divine love, the ultimate source of the meaning of everything that exists. Love is also the richest source of the meaning of suffering, which always remains a mystery: we are conscious of the insufficiency and inadequacy of our explanations. Christ causes us to enter into the mystery and to discover the "why" of suffering, as far as we are capable of grasping the sublimity of divine love.

In order to discover the profound meaning of suffering, following the revealed word of God, we must open ourselves wide to the human subject in his manifold potentiality. We must above all accept the light of Revelation not only insofar as it expresses the transcendent order of justice but also insofar as it illuminates this order with Love, as the definitive source of everything that exists. Love is: also the fullest source of the answer to the question of the meaning of suffering. This answer has been given by God to man in the Cross of Jesus Christ.

The best "Theory of redemption" is Love.

in #15
As a result of Christ's salvific work, man exists on earth with the hope of eternal life and holiness. And even though the victory over sin and death achieved by Christ in his Cross and Resurrection does not abolish temporal suffering from human life, nor free from suffering the whole historical dimension of human existence, it nevertheless throws a new light upon this dimension and upon every suffering: the light of salvation.

The light of salvation now thrown upon human suffering

in #19
In the Cross of Christ not only is the Redemption accomplished through suffering, but also human suffering itself has been redeemed,.

And the Apostle Paul in the Letter to the Galatians will say: "He gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age", and in the First Letter to the Corinthians: "You were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body ".

With these and similar words the witnesses of the New Covenant speak of the greatness of the Redemption, accomplished through the suffering of Christ. The Redeemer suffered in place of man and for man. Every man has his own share in the Redemption. Each one is also called to share in that suffering through which the Redemption was accomplished. He is called to share in that suffering through which all human suffering has also been redeemed. In bringing about the Redemption through suffering, Christ has also raised human suffering to the level of the Redemption. Thus each man, in his suffering, can also become a sharer in the redemptive suffering of Christ.

Even though redeemed we still must suffer.

24. Nevertheless, the Apostle's experiences as a sharer in the sufferings of Christ go even further. In the Letter to the Colossians we read the words which constitute as it were the final stage of the spiritual journey in relation to suffering: "Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the Church". And in another Letter he asks his readers: "Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ?".

For, whoever suffers in union with Christ— just as the Apostle Paul bears his "tribulations" in union with Christ— not only receives from Christ that strength already referred to but also "completes" by his suffering "what is lacking in Christ's afflictions".

Salvifici Doloris (February 11, 1984)

www.vatican.va

This starts getting heavy and we need to think about it.

God would have no problem forgiving, God is totally fair and just, but any rebellious disobedient child needs more than just forgiveness since, if at all possible, a wonderful parent would see to the fair/just Loving discipline of His children for all the benefits discipline provides. Atonement thus is a disciplining process we go through with God and Christ as we are crucified “with Christ”.

The Jews under the Law would have a good understanding of atonement by experiencing atonement for very minor sins which took little disciplining:



Lev.4 starts atonement off giving details of what the priest must do, which you should read and understand, but Lev.5 gets into more detail about the individual, so please read Lev. 5 with much thought. I find people with pet theories of atonement skip Lev. 5 all together and might go to Lev. 16, but the day of atonement has some lite symbolic references to Christ, Lev 5 is a closer representation. I will discuss Lev. 16 if you want to take the time, but it takes some explaining of what and why it was needed by itself. Please read Lev. 5 before going further.

Atonement is much more than the sacrifice itself; it is a process which we can see from the Old Testament examples of the atonement process.

We can start with Lev. 5: 3 or if they touch human uncleanness (anything that would make them unclean) even though they are unaware of it, but then they learn of it and realize their guilt; 4 or if anyone thoughtlessly takes an oath to do anything, whether good or evil (in any matter one might carelessly swear about) even though they are unaware of it, but then they learn of it and realize their guilt— 5 when anyone becomes aware that they are guilty in any of these matters, they must confess in what way they have sinned. 6 As a penalty for the sin they have committed, they must bring to the Lord a female lamb or goat from the flock as a sin offering; and the priest shall make atonement for them for their sin. … 10 The priest shall then offer the other as a burnt offering in the prescribed way and make atonement for them for the sin they have committed, and they will be forgiven.

Lev. 5 is talking about some really minor sins almost accidental sins and very much unintentional sins, there is no atonement process at this time for major sins, intentional direct disobedience toward God (these require banishment or death of the sinner).

The atonement process includes confessing, securing a good offering, personally bringing the offering to the priests at the temple altar, the priest has to offer it correctly and after the atonement process is correctly completed the sinner’s sins will be forgiven.

Note also the relationship between the sinner and the offering, the offering is “as a penalty for the sin” and not a replacement for the sinner. The idea of “penalty” is a “punishment” for the sinner, yet punishment of your child is better translated “disciplining”.

Reading all of Lev. 5: we have a lamb, two doves and a bag of flour all being an atoning sacrifice for the exact same sin, but vary with the wealth of the sinner, yet God does not consider the wealthy person of great value then the poor person, so what is happening? We can only conclude there is an attempt to equalize the hardship on the sinner (penalty/punishment/discipline). In fact, this might be the main factor in the atonement process at least Lev. 5. God is not only forgiving the sins, but seeing to the discipling of the sinner (like any Loving parent tries to do if possible). The problem is it can only be done for minor sins at this time.

Please notice there is an “and” just before “they will be forgiven”, suggesting a separate action, so the forgiveness is not part of the atonement process, but comes afterwards (this will be discussed more later).

Do you see the benefit for the Jewish people (nothing really to help God out here) going through this atonement process? That rich person had to water, feed, hang on to a lamb, he is not the lamb’s shepherd, so for hours waiting in line to get to the priest he fighting this lamb and the poor person may have skipped meals to get that bag of flour, so he has an equal hardship also. They are going to be more careful in the future and those around them will not want to go through the same thing. Yes, they can experience worship, forgiveness, and fellowship in the process.

We should be able to extrapolate up from extremely minor sins to rebellious disobedience directly against God, but that is a huge leap, so the hardship on the sinner will have to be horrendous, the sacrifice of much greater value (penalty for the sinner), and this will take a much greater Priest.

Please think up some questions to ask me.

 

[bling]

The death which is the penalty of sin is the death of the body.

He does just that in the resurrection to immortality.

He does just that for sinners through their faith in and trust on his person and atoning work (blood, Ro 3:25) for the remission of their sin.

The accounting term, "forgive," is to cancel debt because of payment.

I have an MBA and took graduate level accounting and can tell you: Forgiveness does not mean the debt was paid, if the debt is paid it is not forgiven but paid.

Christians are still experiencing the death of the body.

 

[Clare73]

A brother cannot have the judge take his life or do jail time for his brother, since that is against all laws I have heard of

That's human court. . .is it against the law in God's Court?

and it is just not just. Yes, someone can pay your fine, since the courts do not address that.

Which is someone else paying your debt for transgressing the law, just as Jesus did on the cross according to God's Court.

I have an MBA and took graduate level accounting and can tell you: Forgiveness does not mean the debt was paid, if the debt is paid it is not forgiven but paid

Your knowledge of the background of accounting is lacking.

Forgiveness means "cancellation of the debt," which can be by payment or otherwise.

Christians are still experiencing the death of the body.

The mortality of the body is temporary, they do not remain dead forever, we are set free of it at the resurrection, just as we are set free of sin (made sinless) at the resurrection.

This starts getting heavy and we need to think about it.

God would have no problem forgiving, God is totally fair and just, but any rebellious disobedient child needs more than just forgiveness

That is a sadistic, human, extra-Biblical notion of forgiveness, nowhere found in Scripture, the stench of which rises to the heavenly Court to be spit out and trampled on as the insufferable demeaning notion that it is.

Please think up some questions to ask me.

Where do we find this miserable gospel-denying notion presented, supported or asserted in Scripture, the only authority for God's truth?

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Forgiveness means "cancellation of the debt," which can be by payment or otherwise.

Not necessarily. If you break my window paying for it does not mean you will be forgiven by me.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, it is never "just" to kill an innocent even willing person and allow the guilty deserving of death person go free.
You might read my post 18.

The "innocent" in this case is the Law Giver who himself chooses this solution.

If the Law Giver who is also the Law enforcement authority says -
1. I will get rid of the criminal - via death-to-self - and the new birth
2. I will pay the penalty that My Law demands - myself so it is upheld rather than set aside.
3. I will forgive the criminal.

Then justice is done because the penalty is upheld (law remains intact rather than set aside and abolished, order is maintained) , and the criminal is destroyed via the new birth, death-to-self, the new creation. The dire consequence of disobedience is still upheld as it is still the case that the criminal must suffer the second death or God Himself must step in and pay that debt.

In God's kingdom the number one Law is "Love God with all your heart" -- above yourself. So the dire consequence of God dying for your sins is a big negative "to that sort of person". Of course it is not a negative for the wicked - but in this scenario they still go to the lake of fire for their debt and payment.

 

[BobRyan]

Not necessarily. If you break my window paying for it does not mean you will be forgiven by me.

True - but if you pay for it - you are the one owed, you are the one paying.

The Gospel is not claiming that "God gets paid" when you sin. It claims "God gets tortured".

There is nothing in the gospel solution that says "you broke God's window then God had you fix it and pay him for the inconvenience" - no such remedy in the gospel.

 

[Clare73]

Not necessarily. If you break my window paying for it does not mean you will be forgiven by me.

So words can have only one meaning. . .that explains a lot.

 

[RileyG]

Jesus died as ransom to save us from our sins.