Atkins

[thekingster]

So you don't have any references, then?

No, it's not that...time is precious and should not be wasted when people desire to argue...and you, sir, just want to argue.

 

[catalyst]

The bottom line is ketosis is not healthy. I've seen enough research to know, but can't prove it....it was a couple years over even more back when I read up on it...I can't remember. I just knew enough to stay away from starving my body. Anytime you starve your body you are in an UNNATURAL state. You are messing around with your metabolism and every function of your body. I have no current proof...so for those who find the fad diets appealing....maybe your word really is better than mine. Your body functions on carbs....period. It wasn't made for anything else. I am aware it can convert fat and even protein and ketones in extreme states.....but this is unnatural and unnecessary. Its just my opinion...but I also think its common sense....give your body what it needs and exercise....I guess some just don't want to do it the right way...they want it the easy/set in black and white way. Maybe I'm being ignorant about the whole thing and really need to read up even more than I have on the subject and maybe I will....but I know enough to know that it still seems like common sense to me.....to stay away from the Atkins diet.....

How is a ketogenic diet starving? It is a caloric deficit, yes. Hence the inlcusion of the word diet.

As to 'fad' concept once again, please see the first published research on its efficacy in 1868. That is a fad that lasted even longer than 'shoes with wheels.'

As to the body being made to function on carbs, please provide a list of all of the essential carbohydrates. We can then compare them to the essential amino acids, fatty acids, vitamins, and minerals. Allow me to summarize: the ones I listed are essential, there is no such thing as an essential carbohydrate. The organs that absolute require glycgen can get this through de novo lipogenesis.

IOW, please support your assertions. It would seem like common sense to me that if I was after a certain dietary benefit and/or result, I would actually have done some research.

 

[King Element]

No, it's not that...time is precious and should not be wasted when people desire to argue...and you, sir, just want to argue.

Untrue. I want it made perfectly clear that for all the scare tactics and bad mouthing from people who don't like the Atkins diet that there remains to be seen any conclusive evidence to support those claims.

In a debate like this I don't consider asking for references to be argumentative, especially since you are trying to convince others of your point of view.

Call it what you will, but I'm just trying to clarify the truth.

 

[Oblivious]

Whatever happened to eating healthy, reasonable portions of food and exercising regularly? It's healthy and it works!

 

[Key Of David]

How is a ketogenic diet starving? It is a caloric deficit, yes. Hence the inlcusion of the word diet.

As to 'fad' concept once again, please see the first published research on its efficacy in 1868. That is a fad that lasted even longer than 'shoes with wheels.'

As to the body being made to function on carbs, please provide a list of all of the essential carbohydrates. We can then compare them to the essential amino acids, fatty acids, vitamins, and minerals. Allow me to summarize: the ones I listed are essential, The organs that absolute require glycgen can get this through de novo lipogenesis.

IOW, please support your assertions. It would seem like common sense to me that if I was after a certain dietary benefit and/or result, I would actually have done some research.

Why is your body making ketones if it doesn't need energy? Common sense. Your body is not made to use fat and protein as energy it is made to use carbs. If you need a list of carbs then you've picked the wrong one to argue with. You see you don't need to be some fancy nutritionist to know what's good for your body....a basic knowledge and good judgement and a healthy dose of common sense is all you need. If you don't know this already then you are too far up the creek for me to even argue with. It is people like this who want you to get really technical so you can seem/look/feel inferior and possibly be intimidated so they can come across as being right that turn out to be the ones who make money off of this type of thing. This sometimes is what makes laypeople give up on controlling their own diets themselves...and feel like they have to have some know it all to tell them what to eat, most of the time in an unhealthy manner. When will this finally end?

BTW....I would like to see you be a big hot shot and not eat ANY carbs at all on a huge workout day....I mean a really demanding weight lifting day. No little oxygen/fat burning aerobics......I'm talking real calorie blasting weight training, muscle using/building workouts. Tell me that your body can just as well lift those weights..same performance....amount of weights, speed, etc....as if you'd loaded up with carbs all day. On top of that...what is going to replace those hoards of glycogen stores in your muscles when its all done? Tell me how your carb replacement theory works for a bodybuilder...because I'm really interested to see this....especially since I have your quote....

there is no such thing as an essential carbohydrate.

 

[catalyst]

Why is your body making ketones if it doesn't need energy? Common sense. Your body is not made to use fat and protein as energy it is made to use carbs.

The body can run off of a variety of energy substrates, notably either glycogen or ketones. While one method may be optimal for sustained athletic performance, protein and lipids can be utilized for fuel. Lipids via ketosis, and protein via gluconeogenesis.

If you need a list of carbs then you've picked the wrong one to argue with.

IOW, you realize that there is no essential carbohrate? Despite your still-unsupported assertion that 'the body functions on carbs . . . period.'

You see you don't need to be some fancy nutritionist to know what's good for your body....a basic knowledge and good judgement and a healthy dose of common sense is all you need.

So perhaps you could apply these functions and actually answer some of my questions?

. If you don't know this already then you are too far up the creek for me to even argue with.

How quiant. Yet another ad hominem in the name of, what was that? Oh yes, fellowship.

It is people like this who want you to get really technical so you can seem/look/feel inferior and possibly be intimidated so they can come across as being right that turn out to be the ones who make money off of this type of thing.

Actually, I have merely asked you to support your assertions, and you have still not done so. Once again, I would like to see peer-reviewed research supporting your statements. I have quite a bit on file, and will once again offer to post them if someone doubts me. It is fairly simple.

For those who do not know where to look, or have access to my resources, a basic search can be found:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed

This sometimes is what makes laypeople give up on controlling their own diets themselves...and feel like they have to have some know it all to tell them what to eat, most of the time in an unhealthy manner.

I have told no one what to eat. You, on the other had, have said what people must eat. Hmm. I have simply asked people to support their assertions, and no one has done so.

Still.

When will this finally end?

When you provide some evidence to back up your claims.

BTW....I would like to see you be a big hot shot and not eat ANY carbs at all on a huge workout day....I mean a really demanding weight lifting day. No little oxygen/fat burning aerobics......I'm talking real calorie blasting weight training, muscle using/building workouts.

Been there, done that. FYI, in addition to being a nutritional biochemist and former member of an exercise physiology lab, I am also a powerlifter, and compete at the national level. When prepping for my last meet, to drop bodyfat and make weight, I utilized a Cyclical Ketogenic Diet, which has five days of zero carbs. FWIW, I won my weight class (242lbs.).

Um, oops.

Tell me that your body can just as well lift those weights..same performance....amount of weights, speed, etc....as if you'd loaded up with carbs all day.

There is a difference between dieting and striving for optimal athletic performance. Nice staw man.

On top of that...what is going to replace those hoards of glycogen stores in your muscles when its all done? Tell me how your carb replacement theory works for a bodybuilder...because I'm really interested to see this....especially since I have your quote....

Once again, dieting does not equal optimal athletic performance.

And do you even know what essential means? It means essential for the function of the body. There is a difference, and no matter how much time you spend constructing an elaborate straw man equating optimal performance with essential for life, the difference will always be there.

Rather like the difference between those of us who support their statements and those who do not.

Once again, for the cheap seats: Provide some evidence.

 

[Key Of David]

Been there, done that. FYI, in addition to being a nutritional biochemist and former member of an exercise physiology lab,

This is what I was talking about...and it continues....

I am also a powerlifter, and compete at the national level. When prepping for my last meet, to drop bodyfat and make weight, I utilized a Cyclical Ketogenic Diet, which has five days of zero carbs. FWIW, I won my weight class (242lbs.).

Anyone who puts himself on such a "diet" for five days even as a competitive bodybuilder is extreme enough....but to claim this and powerlift? You muscle fibers use only high amounts of glycogen stored directly in the fibers themselves for powerful bursts..they cannot use anything else. Glycogen comes from carbs....and they are the best and most readily available source for this. You cannot convince me otherwise. I guess you're saying that you know better than God's nature? That is what brought on mad cow and prostate cancer from drinking milk now. It is also what makes the morphing monsters you see now in competitive bodybuilding (accept natural of course). You may have won your weight class...but you weren't at your "best". Imagine what you would have done with a healthy diet? WOW.

There is a difference between dieting and striving for optimal athletic performance. Nice staw man.

Not really....optimal athletic performance can only be achieved through optimal health. Health is a direct result of nutrition first, and exercise second. Starving your body of carbs is not ultimate health.

Once again, for the cheap seats: Provide some evidence.

Me provide evidence for what? You can either prove to me that there is a better alternative (like what you claim) to carbs out there or there isn't. I would think that replacing the glycogen stores in your muscle fibers as easily and readily as with carbs would be easy for a man of your knowledge. You claim man can easily replace carbs and live without them...with some self manufactured chemical....ketones aren't poisonous but they are a good source of energy...this is what is being claimed....so show me how ketones fill your glycogen stores just as well and just as fast...and how it is an equal...if not better energy source than what carbs bring about in the human body.

 

[catalyst]

This is what I was talking about...and it continues....


Anyone who puts himself on such a "diet" for five days even as a competitive bodybuilder is extreme enough....but to claim this and powerlift?

Short term energy for the muscles such as that utilized during a powerlifting competition would be provided via the ATP-CPK cycle, not the glyolitic systems.

This is what I was talking about...and it continues....

Please clarify?

I guess you're saying that you know better than God's nature?

No where in any of my posts have I said that, or anything similar. Please stick to what I have posted, instead of constructing yet another straw man.

That is what brought on mad cow and prostate cancer from drinking milk now.

Ketogenic dieting?

It is also what makes the morphing monsters you see now in competitive bodybuilding (accept natural of course).

Ketogenic dieting?

Please stay on topic. Straying off topic to avoid providing references does not support your case.

You may have won your weight class...but you weren't at your "best". Imagine what you would have done with a healthy diet? WOW.

I would have lost. The guy who won the 275lbs. class set an American record total. I would have placed third. So yes, imagine. Once again your unfounded speculation is somewhat less than optimal.

Not really....optimal athletic performance can only be achieved through optimal health. Health is a direct result of nutrition first, and exercise second. Starving your body of carbs is not ultimate health.

Never said it was. I said dieting. Dieting is never optimal. Dieting is the introduction of a catabolic state. This is never optimal for performance. Ever. For health, only under certain conditions. Otherwise operating at any sort of caloric deficit is an additional stress that the body must compensate for, as well as the increase production of free radicals, etc.

It would really be nice if you could answer one of my questions.

Me provide evidence for what? You can either prove to me that there is a better alternative (like what you claim) to carbs out there or there isn't.

No where have I claimed this. I stated that the body did not have to run on carbs. This is a fairly basic concept. You are the one who is wandering off topic, creating straw men, making unsupported assertions, and, in short, doing everything but provide evidence.

You claim man can easily replace carbs and live without them...with some self manufactured chemical....ketones aren't poisonous but they are a good source of energy...this is what is being claimed....so show me how ketones fill your glycogen stores just as well and just as fast...and how it is an equal...if not better energy source than what carbs bring about in the human body.

Carbs have to be converted as well. Everything must be converted into a useful energy substrace to fill muscle glycogen. Ketones do not fill glycogen stores, and I have never said they did.

I have never said they were an equal source of energy to carbs.

Possibly you can respond to what I actually write? Such as a request for references?

You, however, have stated the following, all of which I have asked you to support, and you still have not done so:

The bottom line is ketosis is not healthy.

our body functions on carbs....period. It wasn't made for anything else.

Thats fine to say....but I just wouldn't do anything for any period of time that messed with my liver or my kidneys.

Its just not a healthy diet...

Yes your young, hard working kidneys can "handle" your unnatural diet "just fine".

When you body gets dangerously low on carbs it goes into ketosis....it will literally poison itself.

And when requested to support this, you have switched context, tried to shift the burden of proof, and done everything but actually support your incorrect assertions.

I have asked you to support the above statements. Either you can or you cannot.

Which is it?

 

[Kepa]

I'd like to see some support and references as well... it'd be a good read I think.

 

[zibbler]

Well, I'm not a nutritionist nor am I in the medical field, but I have done a lot of research for personal benefit. Humans are omnivores. We can live on a variety of foods, or a limited amount. Our bodies are very good at adapting. Low carb diets work, and for healthy people there is nothing harmful about them.

Consider this: The Inuit Indians (Northen Canada & Alaska) have survived for thousands of years eating virtually nothing but meat and fat. There is no fruit, grains, or vegetables that can grow on a frozen tundra. These people survive solely on animals that they hunt, and are completely healthy. Conversely, these same people, when introduced to a typical American diet such as the food pyramid suggests have suffered a HUGE increase in heart disease, cancer, obesity and diabetes among other diseases that never plagued them before.

 

[King Element]

Key of David you also made a reference to Mad Banana disease in jest. However, you should obviously know as a member of the health community that eating vegetables and fruit is not without risks. For just one example, many vegetables which we normally eat in the raw state can be infected with toxoplasma gondii which can present many problems for people with compromised immune systems including cancer and AIDS patients, organ transplant patients, expecting mothers, etc. If you think this it's rare, then I would suggest you speak with your doctor as well as look it up for references. Let's put it this way: if you think you are at greater risk of contracting BSE from infected cattle, then I'm sorry to say that you're most likely quite mistaken. Stick to grass fed beef (many brands are already printing this on the packages in the supermarket) for safety if that's the main concern.

My point is that there is nearly no food group which is exempt from at least some risks.

 

[Key Of David]

If you are starving your body of energy then you are living unnaturally. Your body is not meant to starve and poison itself to death.

How is a ketogenic diet starving? It is a caloric deficit, yes. Hence the inlcusion of the word diet.

Hence the inclusion of the word "diet"? Why? What does "diet" have to do with caloric deficit? This is not the main definition of "diet".


Main Entry: 1di·et
Pronunciation: 'dI-&t
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English diete, from Old French, from Latin diaeta, from Greek diaita, literally, manner of living, from diaitasthai to lead one's life
Date: 13th century
1 a : food and drink regularly provided or consumed b : habitual nourishment c : the kind and amount of food prescribed for a person or animal for a special reason
2 : something provided especially habitually <a diet of Broadway shows and nightclubs -- Frederick Wyatt>

I especially like the Greek version.....literally....manner of living. THAT is a diet to me...and starving yourself of carbs is no way to live. You are screwing around with your metabolism. If your body was not meant for carbs then were did all of these vegetables come from and the fruit? Were we not given the teeth to chew them as well as meat? Were we not given the intelligence to choose wisely what goes into our bodies?

Let me ask you something out of curiosity....does the Atkins diet support eating pork?

 

[Key Of David]

You obviously want to get really technical...when all I wanted to do was comment on this. If you want to "diet" this way that's fine with me....I'll keep voicing my opinions on it from time to time though. I for one will be feeding my body instead of starving it. For all the others here who want a man telling them what they can and cannot eat instead of use their own logic....more power to ya! That's the American way...anyway.

 

[aimejl]

Has anyone tried it? Does it work?

I am currently on the adkins diet it works really well.

 

[catalyst]

If you are starving your body of energy then you are living unnaturally. Your body is not meant to starve and poison itself to death.


Hence the inclusion of the word "diet"? Why? What does "diet" have to do with caloric deficit? This is not the main definition of "diet".


Main Entry: 1di·et
Pronunciation: 'dI-&t
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English diete, from Old French, from Latin diaeta, from Greek diaita, literally, manner of living, from diaitasthai to lead one's life
Date: 13th century
1 a : food and drink regularly provided or consumed b : habitual nourishment c : the kind and amount of food prescribed for a person or animal for a special reason
2 : something provided especially habitually <a diet of Broadway shows and nightclubs -- Frederick Wyatt>

I especially like the Greek version.....literally....manner of living. THAT is a diet to me...and starving yourself of carbs is no way to live. You are screwing around with your metabolism. If your body was not meant for carbs then were did all of these vegetables come from and the fruit? Were we not given the teeth to chew them as well as meat? Were we not given the intelligence to choose wisely what goes into our bodies?

Let me ask you something out of curiosity....does the Atkins diet support eating pork?

We were discussing the ketogenic diet, and you should use the term in context it was being used, instead of switching context once again.

You are still making assertions, and not supporting them. I notice that once again you have failed to answer my questions or provide support for your statements. You once again assert that ketosis is poisoning yourself, when any brief review of a basic biochem text shows this to not be the case.

We are omnivores, and have developed the ability to survive on a wide variety of substances.

And yes, you can eat pork on a ketogenic diet.

Note: That is how you answer a question. Perhaps you can try it?

 

[catalyst]

You obviously want to get really technical...when all I wanted to do was comment on this.

Actually, I have just asked you for references, support for your assertions, or basically something to back up your claims. You have still failed to do this after five pages? Does this not tell you something?

If you want to "diet" this way that's fine with me....I'll keep voicing my opinions on it from time to time though.

Try supporting one of your opinions with something like evidence and it may be possible for people to take your opinions seriously.

I for one will be feeding my body instead of starving it.

Hence you will not be dieting in the context that it has been used throughout this thread. Dieting, in the context it has been used here, is the induction of a caloric deficit resulting in a catabolic state.

Unless this was yet another jibe at a diet that you say is harmful but have provided no evidence to support your claims?

For all the others here who want a man telling them what they can and cannot eat instead of use their own logic....more power to ya! That's the American way...anyway.

I have told no one what they can or can not eat. And I have pointed this out earlier. Trying reading one of my posts, since you cannot seem to read anything dealing with physiology or biochemistry. The only one who has said that we must eat something is you.

Let me ask you a question: When someone is completely unable to support their claims, and does everything to avoid doing so, what does that say to you?

 

[catalyst]

Note: To Key of David

You have also stated that one should use their own logic, yet in this thread alone you have committed the following logical fallacies:

Argument by assertion
Argumentum ad nauseum
Argumentum ad hominem
Bifurcation
Irrelevant conclusion
Red Herring
Shifting the burden of proof
Straw man

And that is just with a quick read.

 

[Jacey]

For all the others here who want a man telling them what they can and cannot eat

I've never had anyone from Atkins knock on my door and tell me this. You have to search out the Atkins and other diets, not the other way around. If you're happy with the way you look/feel/etc, then you shouldn't bother with a diet.

 

[Key Of David]

And yes, you can eat pork on a ketogenic diet.

Well that settles it....we're WAY off in beliefs anyway....so have a nice parasite......I mean thread! oink !

 

[Kepa]

Good one man, you never answered a single question with sources, all you did was get defensive and make more assertions. This thread might actually become productive now