Athonite Monks and "Seeing God"

ArmyMatt

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Yeah, its the dating I am interested in, so this is interesting.

Went to my first Pascha service last night/this morning. :)

look to our general Church history, especially when confronting heresy. usually the way to rubber stamp belief, is to put it in the services.

what did you think?
 
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abacabb3

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look to our general Church history, especially when confronting heresy. usually the way to rubber stamp belief, is to put it in the services.

what did you think?
That's why I wonder what the liturgy was like before the Arian controversy.

It was a good service, I liked the excitement. I don't like being up so late at night, so that was different for me.
 
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ArmyMatt

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That's why I wonder what the liturgy was like before the Arian controversy.

It was a good service, I liked the excitement. I don't like being up so late at night, so that was different for me.

check out St Justin Martyr, St Ignatius of Antioch, and the Didache
 
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All4Christ

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That's why I wonder what the liturgy was like before the Arian controversy.

It was a good service, I liked the excitement. I don't like being up so late at night, so that was different for me.
It's my favorite service of the entire year :) The excitement and joy is tangible imho. :)
 
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Via Cassian

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no, it was known in the West (see St Benedict's rule) and in the East as well if you look at the monastics of the desert, which began in the 200's.

plus you have St John's vision as well

LOL, as I read your posts one by one, I thought, "yep, he's correct." Then I got to this one and laughed out loud. "OK, he's correct again!"
 
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ArmyMatt

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LOL, as I read your posts one by one, I thought, "yep, he's correct." Then I got to this one and laughed out loud. "OK, he's correct again!"

I have a buddy doing a thesis on St Benedict's orthodoxy, and within the rule he speaks of the deifying Light.
 
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All4Christ

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@abacabb3

Another early Hymn for Vespers:

O Gladsome Light (Joyous Light) dates from the second-third century.

Glory to God in the Highest (Matins / Small Compline / also sung during he Nativity) dates at least by the fourth century, most likely earlier. St Athanasius talks about it.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Yes, Ignatius cites credal statements but I am unaware any of those works resembling the liturgy of saint chrysostom for example. :)

check Justin Martyr. Ignatius is kinda scattered through his writings.
 
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ArmyMatt

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My priest told me the same. I have read Justin's writings and I honestly do not remember it.

he details the early Liturgy in one of his writings, I have the Church Father volumes and I know it is in there
 
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All4Christ

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ArmyMatt

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abacabb3

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I read Justin and the Didache and I never made the connection between what is written their and the liturgy as now practiced in Orthodoxy. For example, the words spoken during the Eucharist are completely different. Justin speaks of a completely different order of services (reading the Gospels as long as possible, then prayers, and then the Eucharist.) According to Justin, the Deacons give the congregation the bread and wine after its blessed by the priest. Is this still practiced in Orthodoxy, I only see the priest give the Eucharist with the common spoon.

So, there is a kind of liturgy in the most ancient Church, but it is different than what we see in the 4th and 5th centuries, which are the liturgical rites practiced today.

Can someone point out if I am mistaken here?
 
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All4Christ

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I read Justin and the Didache and I never made the connection between what is written their and the liturgy as now practiced in Orthodoxy. For example, the words spoken during the Eucharist are completely different. Justin speaks of a completely different order of services (reading the Gospels as long as possible, then prayers, and then the Eucharist.) According to Justin, the Deacons give the congregation the bread and wine after its blessed by the priest. Is this still practiced in Orthodoxy, I only see the priest give the Eucharist with the common spoon.

So, there is a kind of liturgy in the most ancient Church, but it is different than what we see in the 4th and 5th centuries, which are the liturgical rites practiced today.

Can someone point out if I am mistaken here?
I believe there were several liturgies over the years (at the same time). There still are. For example, we do have the Western Rite as well. Check out the Apostolic Constitutions for text of a ~220AD Western Liturgy. It's pretty interesting to see how developed the western liturgy was then. I imagine the Eastern Liturgy was fairly well developed as well.

Regarding the deacons and the bread / wine: Our deacon gives the bread and wine alongside the priest. They can distribute the gifts without the priest, but cannot consecrate it.

We still have the liturgy of the Word first. While we do have prayers inserted at the beginning, many of our hymns are just Scripture sung. That said, there are now litanies added in at the beginning as well. Note that it said memoirs of the apostles and prophets. I don't think it was just the four gospels, but much of what was written by the apostles.



The Didache was very different text-wise. It paralleled the Jewish blessings. I imagine it was part of the transition to a more developed Christian Liturgy, as it would be very familiar to Jewish converts.

Here is the order defined by St Justin:

  1. the reading of the Scriptures,
  2. the exhortation by the presbyter
  3. the offering of prayers,
  4. the offering of bread, wine and water
  5. the long thanksgiving, eucharistic, prayer of sanctification by the priest,
  6. the partaking of Holy Communion, and
  7. the collection for charity.
And the liturgy today:
  • Beginning: The Liturgy starts with a blessing of the Kingdom of God, which includes the Sacred Body of Christ on earth; His Church.
  • Petitions: They are small prayers which the priest offers especially for the peace of the world, with the people responding, Kyrie eleison; Lord, have mercy.
  • Antiphons (readings from the Old Testament): These are readings from the Old Testament, especially from Psalms 102 and 145, with refrains of Christian meanings and specifically references to the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.
  • Entry with the Gospel: This entry represents the ancient practice when the priest took the Gospel by the light of torches from the crypt, an underground safeguard to protect the Gospel from destruction by the pagans, bringing it up to the Church. The priest lifts up the Gospel and exclaims: "Wisdom," which means Christ, and calls the people to worship and bow down to Christ.
  • Trisagion: A short prayer praising the Holiness of God.
  • Readings from the New Testament: (1) A part of the Book of Acts or the Epistles of the Apostles read by the reader. (2) Another section from the Gospels read by the priest. (The specific sections read are determined by the Church and are the same every year.)
  • Sermon: It is incorporated as an exhortation from the priest to the people on the Good News of salvation. (The part of the service for the Catechumens is now omitted).
  • Cherubic Hymn and Entry with the Holy Gifts: This is a procession with the yet unsanctified Species taken from the table of Preparation and brought to the Altar during which the Cherubic hymn is sung: "Let us put away all worldly care so that we may receive the King of all." (An addition made in the 9th century)
  • Ectenia of the Oblation: They are small prayers completing "our supplications to the Lord". To these supplications the people respond, "Grant this, O Lord". The Prayer of Oblation is now inaudibly read by the Priest saying: "Enable us to offer to Thee gifts and spiritual sacrifices for our sins."
  • A Short Creed: This is a proclamation of the Holy Trinity in connection with brotherhood. It is chanted now before the Nicaean Creed.
  • Creed: This is the concise and accurate confession of the Christian faith in 12 articles formulated by 1st, 2nd Ecumenical Synod at Nicaea in 325 A.D. (The Nicaean Creed is recited during every Liturgy, an addition made in the 9th century; prior to that time it was recited only during the Liturgy at Easter).
  • Prayer of Sanctification: It includes dialogues of excerpts from the long prayer of sanctification which is now read inaudibly by the priest and which, in fact, is the very heart of the significance of the Divine Liturgy. The dialogues start with the offering of the Oblation (the Species, Bread and Wine), continues with blessings and the actual words of the Lord, "this is my body ... this is my blood," and climax in the sanctification of the Species. Now the Bread and Wine are lifted by the priest, who exclaims, "Thine own of Thine own we offer to Thee, O Lord." At this time, generally the people kneel, and the choir sings: "We praise thee... we give thanks to thee, O Lord". In continuation, the priest commemorates the Saints and especially the Virgin Mary, as well as the faithful ones.
  • Petitions: These are small prayers referring to the spiritual welfare of the city, the nation, the Church and the individual.
  • Lord's Prayer: It is recited by the people; the priest follows it with the exaltation.
  • Breaking the Lamb: At this point the priest elevates the Lamb (the consecrated Bread) saying: "The Holy things for those who are holy," and breaks it in commemoration of the actual Eucharist. Also at this time the priest pours warm water, zeon, into the Chalice, a reminiscence of the very primitive Church (see, Justin the Martyr).
  • Prayers before Holy Communion and Partaking of the Holy Gifts by the Priest: Now the doors of the Altar are generally closed and the priest partakes of the Holy Gifts separately and then combines both Elements into the Chalice; a later practice of the Church.
  • Holy Communion: Both the Holy Body and Precious Blood of Christ, combined in the Chalice, are given to the prepared faithful when the priest calls them to "draw near with reverence." In ancient times the Holy Gifts were given to the faithful separately, first the Body and then the Cup, from which the faithful drank in turn, as is the continued practice for the clergymen today.
  • Thanksgiving Prayers: These are prayers of gratitude to Almighty God for the privilege which is given to the faithful to commune with Him.
  • Dismissal Hymn: The priest calls the people to depart with a prayer by which he asks the Lord to "save Thy people and bless Thine inheritance." In conclusion he blesses the people, saying, "May the blessing of the Lord come upon you." The people seal the Liturgy by responding, "Amen." Blessed bread, antithoron, which means "instead of the Gift," is given to all at the conclusion of the Divine Liturgy.
Honestly, with the exception of adding in litanies, the basic structure follows the service outlined by St Justin: reading of scripture (with added prayers today), exhortation of the priest, prayers, presenting the Eucharist, prayers of Thanksgiving, partaking of the Eucharist, collection for charity.

Also check out he Liturgy of St James (though there are some developments of that liturgy - it is said to be handed down from St James himself).

Introduction to the Divine Liturgy - Liturgy & Worship - Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
 
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ArmyMatt

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I read Justin and the Didache and I never made the connection between what is written their and the liturgy as now practiced in Orthodoxy. For example, the words spoken during the Eucharist are completely different. Justin speaks of a completely different order of services (reading the Gospels as long as possible, then prayers, and then the Eucharist.) According to Justin, the Deacons give the congregation the bread and wine after its blessed by the priest. Is this still practiced in Orthodoxy, I only see the priest give the Eucharist with the common spoon.

So, there is a kind of liturgy in the most ancient Church, but it is different than what we see in the 4th and 5th centuries, which are the liturgical rites practiced today.

Can someone point out if I am mistaken here?

there were a ton of Liturgies back in the day. St Basil basically standardized the various rites into his Liturgy, and St John sorta trimmed Basil's down for common use for the Byzantines. so while not exactly the same, we do follow the same pattern.

we also do the Liturgy of St Mark, which came from the Apostle himself as well.
 
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All4Christ

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A lot of the councils solidified Theology of the Church. I think the Church also tried to unify the liturgical life of the Church. That said, there are multiple rites, so the Church isn't saying that there is only one legitimate historical Rite. We don't just make new rites, but there are multiple liturgies with a connection back to the very early church (Tridentine Mass, St James, St Basil, St John, etc). They all have the same core though.

Feel free to correct me Matt if I'm wrong on this :)
 
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