Athiests?

[trientje]

If you could please use the quote better/properly/optimally, it would really help. I have to dig through these paragraphs looking for who said what...



Again, there is no "absolute atheist moral law(s)" or "absolute atheist point of reference". If I had to speak for others, I would say mankind (empathy, Golden Rule, etc.) is its point of reference.



Moral laws are made up by the society, so it's pretty much every man for himself.



Saying "we all know how that turned out", doesn't make anything more right nor wrong; it's not the empirical evidence you've been looking for, to nail the coffin on a ("bad") ideology. I'm sure you'd agree with that if I picked something from Christianity and said that



I would agree that there is "evil", in the sense that it's a word that we use for things we strongly dislike/hate and/or disagree with. To speak of Souls and Magic and Truth gives the word "evil" too much credit.

If the entire universe was just populated by rocks, there would be no "good" or "evil".

"Good" and "evil" come into existence when people start interacting with each other, so people are their own moral law givers. It always puzzles me when Christians seem to find this as scary and crazy, as if people would go running around raping and murdering others if there was no supernatural authoritarian figure.

(It should be noted that the morality of the Christian god rather changes, as he sees fit, so "moral laws" are rather fluid.)



Possibly by the same standards I listed above. You'd honestly have to ask him.



Ok...

"Never impose on others what you would not choose for yourself." - Confucius
"Therefore all things whatsoever would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them" - Jesus of Nazareth

He didn't "expound" on it, he just removed the words that specifically expressed prohibition, making the sentence a positive form, but still saying the exact same thing.

Rewriting or re-configuring sentences (the essence and almost verbatim) isn't impressive or anything akin to amazing.



When you use colorful phrases ("stood it on its head" and "the law of the prophets"), it really doesn't carry any weight with me. They are merely adjectives, metaphors and phrases used to spice up a sentence.

And, at the time, the British military personnel were the first and only ones who took existing pants and tied them with a form of a patch pocket with accordion folds for increased capacity; cargo pants.

It's great that they did that, but I'm not going to build a religion around them for taking an existing good idea and adding to it.



Doubt it. My first thought (if I was coherent) would be that I am delusional, possibly suffering from head/internal trauma, lack of sleep, lack of nutrients or being manipulated.

When you currently see magic tricks, is your first thought, "They must have magical powers"?

Probably not.

Another issue would be, if (that's a huge if) I were to accept what is occuring in front of me, as reality, now what? Which god is it? Is it a version of some religion's "devil", tricking me?



Of the top of my head:

- Lot offering his daughters to be gang raped.
- Slavery is regulated, not abolished or prohibited.
- "Thou shalt not kill", but killing by the tens of thousands.
- Testing someone testing to see if they would actually kill their own son, as a test of their loyalty. (Whether you allow them to follow through or not is irrelevant.)

I'm sure they can all be "explained", but I think any "explanations" offered are merely justifications that have to be made, in order to perpetuate and condone the bible as "Good" and "True".



No worries.

You should read the "Amazon Exclusive: Q & A – Sam Harris" around the middle part of the page. He speaks more eloquently about morality, as a neuroscientist/neurobiologist, than I can or could.

]If you could please use the quote better/properly/optimally, it would really help.

Sorry, sometimes I pay more attention to content than structure. I will try to do better

Moral laws are made up by the society, so it's pretty much every man for himself.

In your world moral laws are made up by society and every man for himself but in the Christian world the moral laws come from God. So we disagree. Ok I respect your right to believe as you do. Do your respect my beliefs?

Of the top of my head:

- Lot offering his daughters to be gang raped.
- Slavery is regulated, not abolished or prohibited.
- "Thou shalt not kill", but killing by the tens of thousands.
- Testing someone testing to see if they would actually kill their own son, as a test of their loyalty. (Whether you allow them to follow through or not is irrelevant.)

I would love to discuss the above with you but you believe the bible is a "fairy tale" If you would be willing to agree that the bible is at least a valuable book to study for at least its history then we would have a point of reference in which to discuss these things. You see, using these points to argue that God is a MEAN God means nothing unless you understand context. So you are using false reasoning to try to prove a point. I have listened to atheist stations and they use the above points to try to prove God is mean.

You should read the "Amazon Exclusive: Q & A – Sam Harris

I will read Sam Harris if you will agree to study the bible at least as a book of history and take a look at Dr Francis Collins.

I appreciate your willingness to discuss these things with me. You seem to be locked into science and science only. And if you are then who's head is in the cage? You strike me as being a philosophical nihilist. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Non sequitur]

Sorry, sometimes I pay more attention to content than structure. I will try to do better

Thanks

In your world moral laws are made up by society and every man for himself but in the Christian world the moral laws come from God. So we disagree. Ok I respect your right to believe as you do. Do your respect my beliefs?

I can't say I respect your actual beliefs, but I do respect your right to believe them.

I would love to discuss the above with you but you believe the bible is a "fairy tale" If you would be willing to agree that the bible is at least a valuable book to study for at least its history then we would have a point of reference in which to discuss these things.

I don't particularly care for "fairy tale", because it has a bad connotation...

Yes, I agree it is a valuable book to study for its history.

You see, using these points to argue that God is a MEAN God means nothing unless you understand context. So you are using false reasoning to try to prove a point. I have listened to atheist stations and they use the above points to try to prove God is mean.

I don't think your god is a "mean" god, but more of a god who is-who-he-is. While sometimes good and just, other times he just appears to be very petty and self-serving; very human.

I don't think it's false reasoning to say he acts the way he acts. If everyone simply had the luxury of saying that "you are taking things out of context" and "your reasoning is false", about whatever they did, then there is nothing wrong with anything they do.

By appealing to their inherent Never-Wrongness is just circular logic, circular reasoning and justification.

I will read Sam Harris if you will agree to study the bible at least as a book of history and take a look at Dr Francis Collins.

Ok.

I appreciate your willingness to discuss these things with me. You seem to be locked into the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment and the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment only. And if you are then who's head is in the cage? You strike me as being a philosophical nihilist. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I swapped out the word "science", in your statement above, for the definition of science. I don't see this as an unsatisfying place to have my head in a cage.

I wouldn't call myself a philosophical nihilist (that reminded me of The Big Lebowski); I don't have a sense of despair or pointlessness about me.

I would agree that life probably has no objective meaning, purpose, and/or intrinsic value. However, I think that life has subjective meaning, purpose, and/or intrinsic value.

Putting "objective" and "purpose" together work quite well with inanimate objects, like wheels, and then people can quibble about "subjective purposes" for said wheel made/designed. Not so much for something as conceptual and intangible as "life" or "love".

 

[trientje]

I don't particularly care for "fairy tale", because it has a bad connotation...

Yes, I agree it is a valuable book to study for its history.

Sir, I used "fairy tale" because on the atheist sites that is the description many use when describing the bible. I'm glad you don't agree with that description. If you are being sincere and really would study the bible I would like to carry on a conversation with you while you are studying. I'm sincere in telling you that and I will get Sam Harris's book and I will read it. I would like to send you some links that would be great in describing what the bible is about but I'm not allowed to post links. there is one site torah class. If you type that in it will bring you to the site. Its a messianic site. Click on old testament and click on genesis then click on introduction to genesis. Its a great lesson. Also there is a box called illustrations. Click on that and you can follow along with the lesson. This alone will give you a great introduction and I believe you can not understand the new testament unless you have studied the old or the torah. AGain, if you are not being honest with me show me the respect of telling me so I don't waste my time.

I would agree that life probably has no objective meaning, purpose, and/or intrinsic value. However, I think that life has subjective meaning, purpose, and/or intrinsic value.

Oh Sir, your life does have objective meaning and and intrinsic value. If you knew the Lord you would know that he does not look at you in a "subjective" way. You would know that God loves you and you are valuable in his eyes.

 

[TRUEPeace]

I do not know why Atheists interact with theists in a way to get them to renounce their faith.
I just put it like this:
If I die and I am wrong and you are right, then I lose nothing since I have no soul and all the "sins" which actually did not exist that I did not commit will have no Ill effect on me ( I won't exist after death so no regrets etc) however if I am right and you are wrong, you will suffer a eternity away from your Creator and I attain salvation all for less then a needle pins tip worth of existence.
From there they could argue if my faith is the true faith.
I would say that is something that would be revealed to you if you choose to have a little faith

 

[Non sequitur]

I do not know why Atheists interact with theists in a way to get them to renounce their faith.
I just put it like this:
If I die and I am wrong and you are right, then I lose nothing since I have no soul and all the "sins" which actually did not exist that I did not commit will have no Ill effect on me ( I won't exist after death so no regrets etc) however if I am right and you are wrong, you will suffer a eternity away from your Creator and I attain salvation all for less then a needle pins tip worth of existence.
From there they could argue if my faith is the true faith.
I would say that is something that would be revealed to you if you choose to have a little faith

The only alternative to you being wrong is not atheism. What about your eternity away from the Creator of all the other religions?

You can't argue 50/50 first, then "argue if my faith is the true faith" after the fact.

 

[Lotuspetal_uk]

The only alternative to you being wrong is not atheism. What about your eternity away from the Creator of all the other religions?

You can't argue 50/50 first, then "argue if my faith is the true faith" after the fact.

Hi Non Sequitur

Whilst it's great that you've shared your POV within this congregational area of CF in your first post, you might want to check out the site's community rules here Section 6 of which states

Congregational Forum Restrictions, Christian Only Forums, and Off-Topic posts
Do not teach or debate in any Congregational Forum unless you are truly a member and share its core beliefs and teachings. Questions and fellowship are allowed, proselytizing is not.

Do not post in the forums reserved for Christians only, unless you are truly a Nicene Creed, Trinitarian Christian (please see our Statement of Faith to know exactly what that is). If you wish to discuss unorthodox doctrines, you may do so in Unorthodox Theology.

Respect and become familiar with each forum's Statement of Purpose. Start threads that are relevant to that forum's stated purpose; submit replies that are relevant to the topic of discussion. Off Topic posts will be moved or removed.

It might be worth checking out this area's Statement of Purpose as well since this is primarily an area of fellowship and not debate.

Cheers!

 

[trientje]

Hi Non Sequitur

Whilst it's great that you've shared your POV within this congregational area of CF in your first post, you might want to check out the site's community rules Section 6 of which states

It might be worth checking out this area's Statement of Purpose as well since this is primarily an area of fellowship and not debate.

Cheers!

While I respect your right to have rules on this site but could I remind you: Mark 16:15, Go into all the world and preach the good news to everyone
MATTHEW 5:14-16 You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven. If rules and regulations stifle and prohibit the job that Jesus put before us maybe those rules need to be looked at. Just my opinion.

 

[Non sequitur]

Hi Non Sequitur

Whilst it's great that you've shared your POV within this congregational area of CF in your first post, you might want to check out the site's community rules here Section 6 of which states

It might be worth checking out this area's Statement of Purpose as well since this is primarily an area of fellowship and not debate.

Cheers!

Hi

There were no opposing arguments put forward (debate). His premise of only "right" or "wrong" is nonsensical, when one excludes other existing and viable options/choices. This is a fact, not an opinion or debatable. This has nothing to do with core beliefs or religious teachings.

What part of that rule was I not adhering to?

 

[Lotuspetal_uk]

While I respect your right to have rules on this site but could I remind you: Mark 16:15, Go into all the world and preach the good news to everyone
MATTHEW 5:14-16 You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven. If rules and regulations stifle and prohibit the job that Jesus put before us maybe those rules need to be looked at. Just my opinion.

I appreciate the point you're trying to make here and I am fully aware of my obligations as a believer - I've been a member on CF for many many years and those rules have made CF one of the most popular forums for believers. Yes, we can be fishers of men but it also takes wisdom and discernment to know when to exercise that. In line with Matt 18:15, I am happy to discuss this further with you in a pm so as not to derail the OP thread further.

You may not be aware of this but there are other parts of CF for you to continue your dialogue with NS. The original poster was even aggrieved by what been going on the last few pages (not sure if you noticed that). She was ignored.

I still stand by what I said to Non Sequitor - he's a cool guy and I'm sure he appreciates where I am coming from.

Blessings to you.

 

[Lotuspetal_uk]

Hi

There were no opposing arguments put forward (debate). His premise of only "right" or "wrong" is nonsensical, when one excludes other existing and viable options/choices. This is a fact, not an opinion or debatable. This has nothing to do with core beliefs or religious teachings.

What part of that rule was I not adhering to?

Hiya Hope you're well.

Little one's having "a paddy" at the moment (just realised I've used one of our local terms ). I'll try to pm you (if that's ok) a little later when I've packed him to bed so that I don't derail the OP's thread further.

 

[Non sequitur]

Alright well this was really why I created this post in the first place. Non sequitur I do realize your trying to have your say, but what is the point? Are you trying to genuinely learn about what we believe or do you come here trying to discredit our faith? You're a non believer so you don't believe in our salvation as Christians or what we truly believe in the first place. I'm not trying to insult you by any means, I just wonder what motives are here. Because honestly at my point when I was non religious Christian forums was the last place I would be.

Sorry, I just realized you posted this (when I clicked on "new", it took me past this post).

My intention was not to derail your thread or your concerns. I found someone engaging me in a nice and pleasant discussion and rather lost track (although, I am looking at what they suggested).

Every moment I am here, I (inadvertently) learn about what you believe. It should be noted, you all don't believe the same thing...

I addressed my motives here

 

[Norah63]

Nonsequitur, I thought that quite odd that you would think what you believe in was boring.
Having faith in Jesus is never boring.
Taste and see that the Lord is good. Life will never be boring again.

 

[1234321]

I've been looking on some other posts on other parts of CF and what is the deal with athiests?

I really don't understand the reason they decide to come here just to ridicule us. It's super frustrating. I understand that some who do come here are legitimate seekers so they shouldn't be banned as a whole I suppose but posts that make fun of Jesus are totally ridiculous.

I suppose I'm ranting, I just don't think cf is really the place for them.

This is what I have seen based on my [un]intentional drifts into an "exploring Christianity," "Physical and Life Sciences," and especially "Ethics and Morality" categories:


1. They are former Christians, somewhere down the line lost their relationship with Christ, and are trying to make sure they are doing the right thing by finding flaws in "Christian logic."

2. They were always taught/believed that "imaginary sky gods" like the one Christians worship were not real, and that they are in the same category as Santa Clause, and the Easter Bunny. Consequently, they use ridicule to highlight what they feel is ludicrous, and vindicate themselves.

3. They are really agnostic (literally "without knowledge,") and do not know any better, as they are completely undereducated on spirituality.

4. They believe there is nothing more real than science, and only the observable and testable (by science) should be taken seriously.

5. They believe that Christianity is a religion that is responsible for most deaths in world history, or that most murder in the name of a god is due to Christian ideology.

6. They are really interested in learning more about Christianity, but do not know how to articulate themselves in a way that is not offensive or defensive, possibly because they feel prejudged by "religious" types for being atheist.

7. They truly dislike/hate Christians, Christ, God, and want it to be known. Some that fall in this category are "aware of," or "believe" in God, but simply reject Him (and all that He stands for because of their own rationalizations.)



At the end of the day, it should be addressed as a concern on this forum. Many atheists know how to use their words in the most offensive way in accordance with the CF rules. A lot of the things they say are destructive to true seekers of Christ that want to find an environment to foster that search. Many of these seekers are very new Christians that struggle with the same "questions" that atheists "ask." So, if this is supposed to be a Christian forum, I don't think it is out of the question to regulate threads that are obviously created to troll or bait.

I have met one person (just my personal experience on CF, there may be more) that was a staunch atheist, but appreciated constructive and respectful debate/dialogue about Christianity. Questions were asked, statements were made, but there was no insinuation that one person was any less intelligent because of his beliefs. I don't know where he is now, but he was Greece, and was a follower of ancient philosophical didacticism, which may explain his openness and non-judgmental attitude. But, I supremely enjoyed conversing with him. I think the States, and the U.K. have an environment that incubates disdainful behavior toward religion on either side. But FWIW, religion ≠ spirituality.

 

[Non sequitur]

Nonsequitur, I thought that quite odd that you would think what you believe in was boring.
Having faith in Jesus is never boring.
Taste and see that the Lord is good. Life will never be boring again.

Where did I say what I believe in was boring?

 

[Non sequitur]

This is what I have seen based on my [un]intentional drifts into an "exploring Christianity," "Physical and Life Sciences," and especially "Ethics and Morality" categories:


1. They are former Christians, somewhere down the line lost their relationship with Christ, and are trying to make sure they are doing the right thing by finding flaws in "Christian logic."

2. They were always taught/believed that "imaginary sky gods" like the one Christians worship were not real, and that they are in the same category as Santa Clause, and the Easter Bunny. Consequently, they use ridicule to highlight what they feel is ludicrous, and vindicate themselves.

3. They are really agnostic (literally "without knowledge,") and do not know any better, as they are completely undereducated on spirituality.

4. They believe there is nothing more real than science, and only the observable and testable (by science) should be taken seriously.

5. They believe that Christianity is a religion that is responsible for most deaths in world history, or that most murder in the name of a god is due to Christian ideology.

6. They are really interested in learning more about Christianity, but do not know how to articulate themselves in a way that is not offensive or defensive, possibly because they feel prejudged by "religious" types for being atheist.

7. They truly dislike/hate Christians, Christ, God, and want it to be known. Some that fall in this category are "aware of," or "believe" in God, but simply reject Him (and all that He stands for because of their own rationalizations.)



At the end of the day, it should be addressed as a concern on this forum. Many atheists know how to use their words in the most offensive way in accordance with the CF rules. A lot of the things they say are destructive to true seekers of Christ that want to find an environment to foster that search. Many of these seekers are very new Christians that struggle with the same "questions" that atheists "ask." So, if this is supposed to be a Christian forum, I don't think it is out of the question to regulate threads that are obviously created to troll or bait.

I have met one person (just my personal experience on CF, there may be more) that was a staunch atheist, but appreciated constructive and respectful debate/dialogue about Christianity. Questions were asked, statements were made, but there was no insinuation that one person was any less intelligent because of his beliefs. I don't know where he is now, but he was Greece, and was a follower of ancient philosophical didacticism, which may explain his openness and non-judgmental attitude. But, I supremely enjoyed conversing with him. I think the States, and the U.K. have an environment that incubates disdainful behavior toward religion on either side. But FWIW, religion ≠ spirituality.

I've never met an atheist who dislikes/hates God, since my time here...

If you jumped into the middle of a thread, you might see some of the things you are talking about, but only because it is a dialogue or back-and-forth responses (Christians say similar things and the same type of things, just modified. More than half of the time, you can just but "not", or something negative, in the above statements).

I've never seen any atheist start off with "CHRISTIANS ARE STOOPID AND DUMMY. IT IS AN IMAGINARY SKY-DADDY AND I HATE GOD".

You are describing a combination of a caricature of an atheist and observations of ongoing "debates".

 

[1234321]

I've never met an atheist who dislikes/hates God, since my time here...

If you jumped into the middle of a thread, you might see some of the things you are talking about, but only because it is a dialogue or back-and-forth responses (Christians say similar things and the same type of things, just modified. More than half of the time, you can just but "not", or something negative, in the above statements).

I've never seen any atheist start off with "CHRISTIANS ARE STOOPID AND DUMMY. IT IS AN IMAGINARY SKY-DADDY AND I HATE GOD".

You are describing a combination of a caricature of an atheist and observations of ongoing "debates".

If a tree falls in a forest, does it make a sound?

Just because you have never met, or seen what I describe doesn't mean it didn't happen. I see it often on these forums. So, because you have not seen it vindicates you more than it vindicates my own observations?

 

[Non sequitur]

If a tree falls in a forest, does it make a sound?

Just because you have never met, or seen what I describe doesn't mean it didn't happen. I see it often on these forums. So, because you have not seen it vindicates you more than it vindicates my own observations?

I never put that argument forward. Why are you putting words in my mouth?

I've never met an atheist who dislikes/hates God, since my time here...

I've never seen any atheist start off with "CHRISTIANS ARE STOOPID AND DUMMY. IT IS AN IMAGINARY SKY-DADDY AND I HATE GOD".

Those are my observations. Nothing more. You could provide evidence for atheists saying those things, if you wish...


You have apparently only met one atheist who appreciated constructive and respectful debate/dialogue about Christianity, on CF. I'd say you are not telling the truth, have not paid enough attention, or have only been in Christian-Only areas.

Heck, I've had (am having) a constructive and respectful debate/dialogue about Christianity with you...

 

[1234321]

I never put that argument forward. Why are you putting words in my mouth?

I've never met an atheist who dislikes/hates God, since my time here...

I've never seen any atheist start off with "CHRISTIANS ARE STOOPID AND DUMMY. IT IS AN IMAGINARY SKY-DADDY AND I HATE GOD".

Those are my observations. Nothing more. You could provide evidence for atheists saying those things, if you wish...


You have apparently only met one atheist who appreciated constructive and respectful debate/dialogue about Christianity, on CF. I'd say you are not telling the truth, have not paid enough attention, or have only been in Christian-Only areas.

Heck, I've had (am having) a constructive and respectful debate/dialogue about Christianity with you...

Why do you post in the christian communities forum in the first place?
This debate is hardly constructive. You know better. Your second to last paragraph is anything but constructive, and more accusatory.

But, I don't want to debate with you. Frankly, judging by your attitude toward several people on this thread, it is futile to engage with you. Whatever makes you feel good is right. If you think I am wrong, I am wrong. You are right. Whatever.

 

[thesunisout]

I never put that argument forward. Why are you putting words in my mouth?

I've never met an atheist who dislikes/hates God, since my time here...

I've never seen any atheist start off with "CHRISTIANS ARE STOOPID AND DUMMY. IT IS AN IMAGINARY SKY-DADDY AND I HATE GOD".

Those are my observations. Nothing more. You could provide evidence for atheists saying those things, if you wish...


You have apparently only met one atheist who appreciated constructive and respectful debate/dialogue about Christianity, on CF. I'd say you are not telling the truth, have not paid enough attention, or have only been in Christian-Only areas.

Heck, I've had (am having) a constructive and respectful debate/dialogue about Christianity with you...

I've spoken to many, many atheists and mocking and condescension has always been the order of the day. Nearly the only time that atheists don't act like that is when they are posting somewhere that has heavy moderation, such as this forum. If you want evidence of this nastiness towards Christians, I'll point you to any atheist forum on the internet.

As far as your unbelief goes, this is what scripture says about it:

Romans 1:18-21

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Scripture says that God has given you ample evidence of His existence, and that you are without excuse. That you suppress the truth because of your wickedness, ie, your sinful ways, and I believe scripture.

I believe it, not only because I know it is the truth, but because I used to be an agnostic. I knew there was a God, deep down inside, because I had prayed to Him when I was younger. In later years, I, like you, denied there was any evidence that there was a God, yet the evidence was my in own life.

You have an elaborate defense that you have constructed intellectually to dismiss or disassemble any argument that a believer will give you. I'm sure you feel very secure there, but it is nothing more than a deceitful artifice that is designed to justify your rebellious heart. None of this has anything to do with evidence, because God has already provided it to you. It has to do with the fact that you love your sin more than you love the truth.

Jesus loves you, even though you are a sinner. He died on the cross for you, and would have done it even if it was just you. He paid the price for the punishment that you and I deserve. He offers you forgiveness for your sins, and eternal life. He stands at the door and knocks, but you must open it. Your life is but a vapor, and today you could breathe your last. If you were to die, you would end up in hell, because you have no forgiveness for your sins, and the wages of your sin is death. Yet God is long-suffering towards you, and He is calling you to Him. That is the only reason why you are here on this forum. You need to give your life to Jesus Christ. He will supernaturally transform you and give you a new Spirit and a new heart. Cry out to Him. Draw near to Him and He will draw near to you.

 

[Non sequitur]

Why do you post in the christian communities forum in the first place?
This debate is hardly constructive. You know better. Your second to last paragraph is anything but constructive, and more accusatory.

But, I don't want to debate with you. Frankly, judging by your attitude toward several people on this thread, it is futile to engage with you. Whatever makes you feel good is right. If you think I am wrong, I am wrong. You are right. Whatever.

I do not believe whatever makes me feel good is right.

I think you are incorrect and was having a discussion... or trying to. You made statements, I asked questions and made statements as well. And I would like to note that you have not answered mine, but just keep asking more questions and talking about new things.

And now you "don't want to debate with" me. I am, indeed, surprised.