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I think you are confusing good and moral with perfect. Though nobody may be perfect, IMO plenty of people live good and moral lives.First of all, NO ONE leads a "good moral life". They lie and hide their vileness as I was explaining with the previous points. To understand this, use math.
Yes, that point was addressed already.*sigh* please read the first post before you comment. The whole point of this thread was about how it is logical for atheists to take what they want if they can get away with it.
Agnosticism and atheism are not mutually exclusive categories.And then he tried to mention that atheists are more succesful, so I pointed out almost all of the top 50 billionaires are theists or agnostic,
Your point was poorly reasoned to begin with. So it bears repeating: by what tortured logic are you able to draw a connection between Soros' actions and atheism?and then I discovered the ONE atheist, George Soros, proves the point of this thread: he chose to commit "economic war crimes" as some called it, to earn billions in profit for himself by harming entire nations. I was pointing out he was being entirely logical as an atheist (and that almost NONE of the other top 50 who are theist and agnostic engaged in that practice even though they could earn billions and get away with it) and proving my point in the thread.
Where did you obtain these stats from?And you know it's funny how ChristianForums is dominated by atheists even though they are like 5% of the population they make up like 70% of this Christian forum. How can you explain that? It's like you are all missionaries for your anti-religion religion. Like something in your soul is driving you to have a desire to force your viewpoints onto others so you spend all day on the ChristianForums trying to convert Christians into Atheists... what irony!
*sigh* please read the first post before you comment. The whole point of this thread was about how it is logical for atheists to take what they want if they can get away with it. And then he tried to mention that atheists are more succesful, so I pointed out almost all of the top 50 billionaires are theists or agnostic, and then I discovered the ONE atheist, George Soros, proves the point of this thread: he chose to commit "economic war crimes" as some called it, to earn billions in profit for himself by harming entire nations. I was pointing out he was being entirely logical as an atheist (and that almost NONE of the other top 50 who are theist and agnostic engaged in that practice even though they could earn billions and get away with it) and proving my point in the thread.
And you know it's funny how ChristianForums is dominated by atheists even though they are like 5% of the population they make up like 70% of this Christian forum. How can you explain that? It's like you are all missionaries for your anti-religion religion. Like something in your soul is driving you to have a desire to force your viewpoints onto others so you spend all day on the ChristianForums trying to convert Christians into Atheists... what irony!
I mean seriously? 16,000 posts? 24,000 posts? On a Christian forum.... and it doesn't seem to be because you "like" Christians... so you are spending all that time on a forum to argue with people you don't like, basically to try and proselytize like a missionary... oh the irony!
How do you know all those billionaires are theists or agnostic? Is this just an assumption? Bill Gates the worlds richest man has made it very clear that he was an atheist during several interviews; and when you consider the "Gates foundation" his attempt to give away his entire fortune to help mankind before he dies, (he has already given away over 1/3 of his fortune) and his constant attempt to get other billionaires to do the same, he has helped more than any charity; religious or otherwise. So how does his deeds fit into this thread?*sigh* please read the first post before you comment. The whole point of this thread was about how it is logical for atheists to take what they want if they can get away with it. And then he tried to mention that atheists are more succesful, so I pointed out almost all of the top 50 billionaires are theists or agnostic, and then I discovered the ONE atheist, George Soros, proves the point of this thread: he chose to commit "economic war crimes" as some called it, to earn billions in profit for himself by harming entire nations. I was pointing out he was being entirely logical as an atheist (and that almost NONE of the other top 50 who are theist and agnostic engaged in that practice even though they could earn billions and get away with it) and proving my point in the thread.
How do you know all those billionaires are theists or agnostic? Is this just an assumption? Bill Gates the worlds richest man has made it very clear that he was an atheist during several interviews; and when you consider the "Gates foundation" his attempt to give away his entire fortune to help mankind before he dies, (he has already given away over 1/3 of his fortune) and his constant attempt to get other billionaires to do the same, he has helped more than any charity; religious or otherwise. So how does his deeds fit into this thread?
Ken
And? What point are you driving at here? Atheists do good works. Theists do good works. Some atheists are jerks. Some theists are jerks. Is this news to you?Bill Gates attends Church (whether or not he fully believes is up for debate but certainly no atheist! he used to say he was AGNOSTIC, not atheist) and Bill Gates even said giving a lot to charity is "kind of a religious belief" (since you are sacrificing self-interest for others, WHICH IS THE POINT OF MY THREAD!).
"The moral systems of religion, I think, are super important. We've raised our kids in a religious way; they've gone to the Catholic church that Melinda goes to and I participate in. I've been very lucky, and therefore I owe it to try and reduce the inequity in the world. And that's kind of a religious belief. I mean, it's at least a moral belief" - Bill Gates
Bill Gates wife is Catholic and he may have changed his position as a result of their marriage, but he was talking about philanthropy before her.Bill Gates attends Church (whether or not he fully believes is up for debate but certainly no atheist! he used to say he was AGNOSTIC, not atheist) and Bill Gates even said giving a lot to charity is "kind of a religious belief" (since you are sacrificing self-interest for others, WHICH IS THE POINT OF MY THREAD!).
"The moral systems of religion, I think, are super important. We've raised our kids in a religious way; they've gone to the Catholic church that Melinda goes to and I participate in. I've been very lucky, and therefore I owe it to try and reduce the inequity in the world. And that's kind of a religious belief. I mean, it's at least a moral belief" - Bill Gates
And? What point are you driving at here? Atheists do good works. Theists do good works. Some atheists are jerks. Some theists are jerks. Is this news to you?
My tastes have changed living in Milwaukee.
Is that from Mader's? If so have a Franzikaner Dunkel for me (out of the boot of course).My tastes have changed living in Milwaukee.
Could you please give an argument in which we should do good actions for the sake of goodness itself?
Just so I know what makes you even wonder:Atheists: Why don't you steal, rape, pillage, etc?
No. Because that is circular logic. We do actions for a reason.
And maybe the problem of this thread is I tried to pose it in a way as to ask the Atheists here why THEY don't rape, pillage, steal, etc. And they all have emotional reasons as to why they don't. I was trying to point this out to them so they can see there is no logical reason to reject doing what Judeo-Christian societies view as "evil" when it is in their own self-interest if they can get away with it.
But perhaps a better question would have been: Imagine you're neck-down paralyzed and a person who has no emotions arrives who wants to kill you and take your stuff, and when you ask him to not do it, he asks "Why not?"
Because when I said "Why not?" before, all Atheists could say is "wow". No response. Because they have no answer. That was my entire point and the Atheists here basically conceded defeat at that point.
There is nothing an atheist can say to convince an emotionless person not to. That is my point even if I had to play Devil's Advocate to make it. They are only making appeals to emotion, not appeals to logic, because there is no logic in rejecting your own self-interest or pleasure when you don't have to. There is at least, *some* logic in refusing your own self-interest if you are convinced of the existence of an after-life where bad actions are punished.
But anyways, I really don't have the time for this, wish I could just delete this thread because it's really pointless since most of the atheists here won't "seriously consider" (literally in this thread said that) opposing people's views.
And I get it, when I was atheist I was 100% sure of myself, and in the end it took a spiritual experience for me to convert, and frankly people who become religious simply out of fear or just making a logical guess is not true faith so my thread is pointless since I made the mistake of trying to convince people using logic, rather than emotion. I just don't like using appeals to emotion (particularly empathy/guilt) as the Atheists here are doing like when they say "Being good has it's own rewards" ambiguously and ignoring the reverse "Being evil has it's own rewards" is far more true.
And ironically that "has it's own rewards" statement the Atheists here used comes from a British clergyman who said Virtue gives pleasure but that those without religion who basically act Virtuous only for pleasure's sake will "never get the pleasure because they can never have the virtue".
No. Because that is circular logic. We do actions for a reason.
And maybe the problem of this thread is I tried to pose it in a way as to ask the Atheists here why THEY don't rape, pillage, steal, etc. And they all have emotional reasons as to why they don't. I was trying to point this out to them so they can see there is no logical reason to reject doing what Judeo-Christian societies view as "evil" when it is in their own self-interest if they can get away with it.
But perhaps a better question would have been: Imagine you're neck-down paralyzed and a person who has no emotions arrives who wants to kill you and take your stuff, and when you ask him to not do it, he asks "Why not?"
Because when I said "Why not?" before, all Atheists could say is "wow". No response. Because they have no answer. That was my entire point and the Atheists here basically conceded defeat at that point.
There is nothing an atheist can say to convince an emotionless person not to. That is my point even if I had to play Devil's Advocate to make it. They are only making appeals to emotion, not appeals to logic, because there is no logic in rejecting your own self-interest or pleasure when you don't have to. There is at least, *some* logic in refusing your own self-interest if you are convinced of the existence of an after-life where bad actions are punished.
But anyways, I really don't have the time for this, wish I could just delete this thread because it's really pointless since most of the atheists here won't "seriously consider" (literally in this thread said that) opposing people's views.
And I get it, when I was atheist I was 100% sure of myself, and in the end it took a spiritual experience for me to convert, and frankly people who become religious simply out of fear or just making a logical guess is not true faith so my thread is pointless since I made the mistake of trying to convince people using logic, rather than emotion. I just don't like using appeals to emotion (particularly empathy/guilt) as the Atheists here are doing like when they say "Being good has it's own rewards" ambiguously and ignoring the reverse "Being evil has it's own rewards" is far more true.
And ironically that "has it's own rewards" statement the Atheists here used comes from a British clergyman who said Virtue gives pleasure but that those without religion who basically act Virtuous only for pleasure's sake will "never get the pleasure because they can never have the virtue".
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