Atheists, define 'God'

[Skavau]

I have an appointment right now, but I would like to address this question, if you are seriously only inquisitive.

I will return to this in a bit.

I am both inquisitive and combative on the point.

I do not see how a moral worldview can include the promotion of the idea that anyone should be tormented for eternity in hell.

 

[Davian]

Not familiar with this quote. Seems a bit strange that you would use a quote from someone else to refute a statement that I have made. Even so, allow me to address it.

Your statement was nonsensical, so it was not an attempt to refute. I was just adding another nonsensical comment.

To question God's love would not send someone to Hell. Many believers face doubt at times in their lives. But it's through prayer and study of God's word that those doubts are erased. So to question God's love might even be healthy.

Or, from what I have heard, it might cause them to abandon religion altogether.

 

[GadFly]

Of course our languishes do not have big enough vocabulary to define God; however. the first five words in the Bible explains God and every thing in the universe. In the beginning God---Created. The fact is that God is the logos.

If you want to know what Christ is, it will be very helpful for you to do a Google search for olgos/dabar. The logos is a Spirit, a scientific method if the highest order, the foundation of knowledge of the highest order ans the Principle that gives meaning to the Christian lifestyle.He is the principle that answers the thread that wants to know what the meaning of life is.

 

[gav1nzdad]

I am both inquisitive and combative on the point.

I do not see how a moral worldview can include the promotion of the idea that anyone should be tormented for eternity in hell.

A "moral worldview" is not what I am claiming to have. It's much more than that. And I decided to open another thread on the subject of hell. You can find it under Exploring Christianity. I welcome your comments, as long as they remain inquisitive and not "combative"

 

[Skavau]

A "moral worldview" is not what I am claiming to have. It's much more than that. And I decided to open another thread on the subject of hell. You can find it under Exploring Christianity. I welcome your comments, as long as they remain inquisitive and not "combative"

That sub-forum is absurdly restrictive and invites non-Christians to interact solely as elevated guests to ask questions and quack when they receive answers. I already know most of the arguments for eternal torment and I know many of the different criterion for being eligable for it.

My 'combative' stance on it is not an implication of any kind of militancy but merely a reference to the fact that I will debate my perspective on it. I believe it to be thoroughly unjustifiable.

 

[gav1nzdad]

That sub-forum is absurdly restrictive and invites non-Christians to interact solely as elevated guests to ask questions and quack when they receive answers. I already know most of the arguments for eternal torment and I know many of the different criterion for being eligable for it.

My 'combative' stance on it is not an implication of any kind of militancy but merely a reference to the fact that I will debate my perspective on it. I believe it to be thoroughly unjustifiable.

Sorry, I am new the boards. I didn't realize there were restrictions on that board. I have pasted the thread below. My apologies tot he OP, as this is really not what they intended.

Why does there have to be a hell?
I was asked this question in another thread and wanted to address it here. Before, I start, I want to make it clear that I am no scholar and I am only giving my understanding of my reading of God's word. If anyone who reads this finds an error that can be backed up by biblical references, please feel free to correct me. I promise, I will not take offence!

In any discussion of hell, the first thing you have to acknowledge is that God IS real and He is righteaous and holy. If this is not a concession you are willing to make, then you will no doubt, disagree with almost everything else in this post.

Hell was created for Satan and his angels that rebelled against God. God does not want anyone to go to hell.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance .

But God IS righteous and holy, sin can not abide with Him. God created us with free will. He wants us to come to Him by our own choice. If we do, He removes that sin through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, thereby placing His holiness adn His righteousness on us. This is what makes us "acceptable" to Him. He calls us all to Him, but some will ignore, or choose not to come to Him. And by the way, He may call a person many, many times. But ultimately, if we do not choose Him, we are in fact choosing Satan.

If we choose Satan, whether by default or not, we inherit eternal damnation, or hell. God doesn't choose that for us, we choose that for ourselves.

Now there are some who will say that hell is not a literal place, but that is just not biblical. However, i do see the importance of associating hell with eternal separation from God.

Any thoughts are welcome.

 

[Gadarene]

In any discussion of hell, the first thing you have to acknowledge is that God IS real and He is righteaous and holy. If this is not a concession you are willing to make, then you will no doubt, disagree with almost everything else in this post.

No, no one "has to" acknowledge anything. If what follows is inconsistent with the above, then it is an inconsistent stance.

Hell was created for Satan and his angels that rebelled against God.

Except surely he knew that he was going to have to send a large portion (the majority?) of his "loved" human creations to hit as he was creating it?

God does not want anyone to go to hell.

Ok, let's grant this.

But God IS righteous and holy, sin can not abide with Him.

Why not? Is it something he cannot abide at all? I.e. is he not omnipotent? Or is it something he could remove more freely than he already (allegedly) does?

God created us with free will. He wants us to come to Him by our own choice. If we do, He removes that sin through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, thereby placing His holiness adn His righteousness on us.

So this is a rule he instituted.

This is what makes us "acceptable" to Him. He calls us all to Him, but some will ignore, or choose not to come to Him. And by the way, He may call a person many, many times.

Or some may just not hear. This notion that God calls all or reveals himself to all who seek is false, by the sheer weight of testimony from people who have had no such thing come their way.

But ultimately, if we do not choose Him, we are in fact choosing Satan.

Non sequitur.

If we choose Satan, whether by default or not, we inherit eternal damnation, or hell. God doesn't choose that for us, we choose that for ourselves.

Hardly an informed choice? And no, we do not choose the punishment - we may have chose to sin, but God chooses both what sin is (assuming there's a divine command theory in play here, and I'm guessing there is) and the punishment for it. The system of what condemns you and what results from condemnation are entirely under his auspice.

 

[gav1nzdad]

As I said,

If this is not a concession you are willing to make, then you will no doubt, disagree with almost everything else in this post.

 

[Skavau]

Sorry, I am new the boards. I didn't realize there were restrictions on that board. I have pasted the thread below. My apologies tot he OP, as this is really not what they intended.

Okay.

In any discussion of hell, the first thing you have to acknowledge is that God IS real and He is righteaous and holy. If this is not a concession you are willing to make, then you will no doubt, disagree with almost everything else in this post.

Well obviously, as an atheist I can only acknowledge it hypothetically. I can do that and will do that for the purposes of discussion.

Hell was created for Satan and his angels that rebelled against God. God does not want anyone to go to hell.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance .

Right...

But God IS righteous and holy, sin can not abide with Him. God created us with free will. He wants us to come to Him by our own choice. If we do, He removes that sin through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, thereby placing His holiness adn His righteousness on us.

This raises a significant amount of questions. Our 'sin' by most Christians at least is by consequence of explanation, not our fault.. That is to say that we are by cause of the fall or by cause of design or perhaps both at birth tainted by sin. We are born imperfect and born with the propensity to err from God's plans for us by consequence of that trait. It is unjust that God hold us responsible for this imposition he imposed or allowed upon us.Secondly, the solution for our 'sin' is bizarre. It requires a special solemn recognition of a sacrifice that none of us observed or even knew about whilst it happened. It also requires we accept the asserted divine attributes about it and believe, love and adhere to an entire world-view for our entire lives.

This is an unreasonable solution to the problem of sin as it requires people to believe in something and love something for which they see no evidence for. To put it bluntly, millions and millions are born into sin, commit sin without even knowing they are sinning, knowing the importance of not sinning and knowing even of any solution for sinning and worst of all if you charge God with the title of omniscience you have to accept that this happens entirely under his watch and with his knowledge. He is by default condemning billions of people to hell for their ignorance of their supposedly sinful nature.

This is what makes us "acceptable" to Him. He calls us all to Him, but some will ignore, or choose not to come to Him.

Some will also be unaware of said call or believe in different calls (Islam, Sikhism, Hinduism, Baha'i, Judaism etc). I like to think humans operate by conviction both emotionally and rationally and certainly no-one has any reason to just assume only Christianity offers salvation.

And by the way, He may call a person many, many times. But ultimately, if we do not choose Him, we are in fact choosing Satan.

This is a false conclusion. Not choosing God is not choosing Satan. Period.

If we choose Satan, whether by default or not, we inherit eternal damnation, or hell. God doesn't choose that for us, we choose that for ourselves.

This is evidently untrue. Ask a Muslim what they think they've chosen. Ask any Non-Christian what they think they've chosen. You will find that Muslims believe themselves destined for heaven and you will find other Non-Christians will provide a plethora of different and unique predictions based not remotely on your convictions.

That God has established hell as a 'natural' consequence for those not saved in Jesus is entirely his decision. No-one chooses it anymore than a blind man walking across a busy road chooses to be hit over by a car.

 

[Gadarene]

As I said,

If this is not a concession you are willing to make, then you will no doubt, disagree with almost everything else in this post.

Nonetheless, you can address the remainder of the points.

All aspects of your argument are open to scrutiny.

 

[jpcedotal]

I don't believe God is undefinable. There are some definite traits of God that can be defined and by studying Scripture one can see an all powerful being who has the ability to do anything and everything not certain things and will only do certain other opposite things and vise versa. True, Christians disagree to some of the definitions and extents of right/wrong, good/bad, love/hate, righteousness/sin, and holy/worldly, God definitely makes Himself clear on which side He is on.


To me, that is defining God without boxing Him in.

 

[gav1nzdad]

I have laid out for you the reasons why I believe that hell is real and is why I believe unbelievers will face it. I realize that some will choose to "pick apart" my post. If this is your intent, I will not debate you. I simply provided what I provided for you under the assumption you were merely inquisitive. Already, you have admitted you would make no concession that God is real and He is righteous and Holy. And sorry, saying that you will "hypothetically" agree to that doesn't mena that you have in fact hypothetically agreed to that, as evident from the remainder of yoru comments.

If you are looking for a fight, you got the wrong guy. I'm at peace, I don't need any drama or contention.

 

[Davian]

I don't believe God is undefinable. There are some definite traits of God that can be defined and by studying Scripture one can see an all powerful being who has the ability to do anything and everything not certain things and will only do certain other opposite things and vise versa. True, Christians disagree to some of the definitions and extents of right/wrong, good/bad, love/hate, righteousness/sin, and holy/worldly, God definitely makes Himself clear on which side He is on.

To me, that is defining God without boxing Him in.

As it relates to the OP, that definition is of little use. Nothing testable or independently verifiable. Do you have anything that would demonstrate that your "God" is more than a character in a book?

 

[Gadarene]

I have laid out for you the reasons why I believe that hell is real and is why I believe unbelievers will face it. I realize that some will choose to "pick apart" my post. If this is your intent, I will not debate you. I simply provided what I provided for you under the assumption you were merely inquisitive. Already, you have admitted you would make no concession that God is real and He is righteous and Holy. And sorry, saying that you will "hypothetically" agree to that doesn't mena that you have in fact hypothetically agreed to that, as evident from the remainder of yoru comments.

If you are looking for a fight, you got the wrong guy. I'm at peace, I don't need any drama or contention.

Ok, so you can't defend your conception of hell, got it.

 

[gav1nzdad]

Ok, so you can't defend your conception of hell, got it.

You're a funny guy!

Let me just put this in a nutshell.

For me to give you enough reason to accept the reality of God and Hell, you would have to make some admissions that you are unwilling to make. And for me to discout the reality of Hell would be to discount the entire New Testament and Jesus Christ with it, which obviously, I will not.

 

[Skavau]

I have laid out for you the reasons why I believe that hell is real and is why I believe unbelievers will face it. I realize that some will choose to "pick apart" my post. If this is your intent, I will not debate you.

Debating involves picking apart your opponents arguments and responding providing your own counter-responses. What did you expect me to do? I did tell you I was "combative" on the issue.

I simply provided what I provided for you under the assumption you were merely inquisitive.

Why did you make that assumption when I said otherwise? Directly to you twice.

Already, you have admitted you would make no concession that God is real and He is righteous and Holy. And sorry, saying that you will "hypothetically" agree to that doesn't mena that you have in fact hypothetically agreed to that, as evident from the remainder of yoru comments.

Yes it does. To speak hypothetically is to assume a position you don't hold or speak from a position you don't hold for the purposes of common ground with the person you are discussing with. I did all of that and asked you questions based on that.

Were you actually expecting me to defy my own convictions and will myself to become a christian theist convinced of God's righteousness and holiness? I can no more do that than you can become an atheist. Belief is defined by conviction. If you lack conviction in a proposition then you cannot believe in it.

If you are looking for a fight, you got the wrong guy. I'm at peace, I don't need any drama or contention.

I'm not "looking for a fight." I'm looking for debate or discussion on any number of points.

Why are people so defensive?

 

[Skavau]

You're a funny guy!

Let me just put this in a nutshell.

For me to give you enough reason to accept the reality of God and Hell, you would have to make some admissions that you are unwilling to make. And for me to discout the reality of Hell would be to discount the entire New Testament and Jesus Christ with it, which obviously, I will not.

Few things

If your argument in favour of hell first requires the skeptic to accept several assertions they have no reason to accept you never had an argument to begin with. Only special pleading.

Secondly no-one asked you to demonstrate God or hell, you were invited to defend the morality of hell.

 

[Gadarene]

You're a funny guy!

Let me just put this in a nutshell.

For me to give you enough reason to accept the reality of God and Hell, you would have to make some admissions that you are unwilling to make.

Right, I'm the one ringfencing the premises of my argument here. Hysterical.

 

[gav1nzdad]

I never stated that I was opening a "debate". For me, somethings are just not open to debate, this is one of those things. I'm sure you have those things as well. I entered into a discussion and offered my two cents. And I did state that if you were going to be combative, I would not discuss it with you.

And lastly, I don't NEED to argue anything. I believe, I am born again, and I am destined to spend eternity with my Lord. What do I need to argue about?

 

[Skavau]

I never stated that I was opening a "debate". For me, somethings are just not open to debate, this is one of those things. I'm sure you have those things as well.

Only private things that I would not bring up anyway and would have no relevance in a debate with others. Any topic for me on philosophy, science, ethics, media, culture whatever is open.

And lastly, I don't NEED to argue anything. I believe, I am born again, and I am destined to spend eternity with my Lord. What do I need to argue about?

So you came to this sub-forum why?