• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Atheists debates - is it worth it?

Silmarien

Existentialist
Feb 24, 2017
4,337
5,254
39
New York
✟223,224.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
And BTW, have you ever thought about how you became a Christian? How can you possibly know if it was really your free will choice, or if it was God directing you subconsciously?

I would hazard a guess that most Christians actually do believe that God was directing them subconsciously to a certain degree. John 14:6 would certainly imply as much, and all major denominations would hold that faith is a gift from God and not something that you can produce entirely of your own accord. Few would hold that this conflicts with free will, though.

You're welcome to be a weird sort of reverse Calvinist if you so desire, but it's odd to just declare that Calvinism is the logical conclusion to divine sovereignty when people have been arguing back and forth about that for 2000 years, and then build a philosophy around it as if it were an unassailable truth rather than a highly controversial and disputed theological idea. It would be like a theist declaring that a particular version of atheism couldn't be true, and that therefore a bunch of things had to follow that wouldn't if their understanding of atheism weren't so narrow in the first place.
 
Upvote 0

RBPerry

Christian Baby Boomer
Site Supporter
Oct 14, 2013
808
302
76
Northern California
✟111,732.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives

What you do not understand is Allah is a reference to the same God we Christians worship. Most of the Muslims beliefs come from our old testament. What the radical Muslims have done is distort what Mohammad taught to the point it doesn't come close to the original Muslim faith.

Shakespeare, what is the rest of his statement, I see you left that out. It is kind of like some Christians have been guilty of, picking part a statement, but leaving the real context out. "take care not to deceive yourself"
 
Upvote 0

RBPerry

Christian Baby Boomer
Site Supporter
Oct 14, 2013
808
302
76
Northern California
✟111,732.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives

Good points, and I love your reverse Calvinist comment. You are correct there are many theological questions that most seminary professors love dividing people with, and this is exactly what many of those debates do, the result being fueling atheistic arguments with divisions that have nothing to do with a relationship with Christ.
 
Upvote 0

jayem

Naturalist
Jun 24, 2003
15,426
7,164
74
St. Louis, MO.
✟423,519.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Shakespeare, what is the rest of his statement, I see you left that out. It is kind of like some Christians have been guilty of, picking part a statement, but leaving the real context out. "take care not to deceive yourself"

This is the rest of the speech:

“This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.
Farewell, my blessing season this in thee!”

Polonius's advice to his son is indeed to know yourself, and to be honest. Then you won't deceive yourself or others. And that's exactly the meaning I intended to convey. I know that I cannot honestly believe something that to me is so logically contradictory. I suspect we can agree that all belief ultimately comes down to faith. Didn't Paul write that you walk by faith, not by sight? One must accept Jesus on faith. Which numerous bible verses say (or strongly imply) is a gift. I haven't received that gift. And that's the honest-to-God truth.
 
Upvote 0

RBPerry

Christian Baby Boomer
Site Supporter
Oct 14, 2013
808
302
76
Northern California
✟111,732.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives

I did understand your point, I just didn't remember exact wording, thanks for posting. Yes Christianity requires faith, however I couldn't accept it through blind faith. Many like myself had to do a lot of digging and evaluating before coming to a faith in Christ, and it wasn't easy for me. Then I had a few experiences in my life that left no doubt that God is real and Jesus Christ is His son. The question should be, are you willing to consider there is a God, and that his son is Jesus Christ? In our world today truth is something that is very hard to find at times.
 
Upvote 0

Ophiolite

Recalcitrant Procrastinating Ape
Nov 12, 2008
9,261
10,157
✟285,965.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
Perhaps my list of reasons for being on CF may de-baffle you. Feel free to ask for clarification of any point. These are not in order of importance, but just as they occurred to me today. Nor is the list necessarily comprehensive. I've posted similar lists three or four times before and I doubt any of them are the same.
  • I like forums
  • I wish to expose myself to those with different worldviews in order to
    • Better understand the reasons for their beliefs
    • Identify the strengths and weaknesses in their arguments
    • Check my own viewpoints for validity
  • Since most of my time is spent in the Physical & Life Science sub-forums I expect to learn something new there.
  • In the same arena I expect to deepen my own understanding of scientific issues by explaining or debating issues with fellow members
  • I test out the occasional joke with the vague notion that one day I might try stand-up
  • Given that I find some of the views expressed by certain members so deeply ignorant and offensive that it gives me an opportunity to practice anger management.
  • I can practice my writing skills, seeking to get my message across clearly, concisely and comprehensively.
Note: Since I don't rule out the possibility that there is some kind of God I am registered here as agnostic. However, in relation to Vishnu, Yaweh, Allah, Zeus, Ra, or any God, or god named by humans, I am wholly atheistic.
 
Upvote 0

Nihilist Virus

Infectious idea
Oct 24, 2015
4,940
1,251
41
California
✟156,979.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private

So far, so good.

The issue isn’t why they are atheists but understanding that since they believe there is no god,

Huh? We don't believe there is a god, but that doesn't mean we believe there is no god.

they generally believe that there is no existence outside of the physical existence that we the living are part of.

Again... huh? Why can there not be other universes?


It is pretty disgusting and predatory to prey upon those who are on their deathbed. Very shameful behavior. Instead, consider telling them that God most likely does not exist and that heaven and hell are made up. This way they can die in peace and with their dignity, instead of grovelling before your favorite deity out of terror.


Most atheists are not doctors. I'm not one. Are you?

I don't know when exactly a person dies, or if that is even a sensible question. As far as I understand it, death is a process. Not a light switch that goes from on to off.


I don't experience delusions. I do need legitimate arguments or evidence to convince me of the existence of God.


I know of at least one person who converted to atheism because their near-death experience was nothingness.

At one time I would waste considerable time attempting to debate atheists and finally realized it was a waste of time. If a person is closed minded to any subject, then there is no room for debate or evaluation of evidence or beliefs.

Actually, it's you who is closed minded. How is that not obvious? You said yourself that most atheists are former Christians. That means we were persuaded and we changed our minds. Most Christians were indoctrinated into their religion from birth. You're the one who won't change his mind. No matter what I or any atheist says, you will remain a Christian because you're brainwashed.

If a person is an agnostic and willing to make an honest evaluation of Christianity, then you have someone you can have a meaningful dialog with.

I think that a person's level of intelligence and knowledge on the subject is more important. You don't seem to actually grasp what atheism and agnosticism are. You've clearly never talked to an atheist and actually listened to what they had to say because otherwise you'd know that most atheists describe themselves as agnostic atheists who do not believe in God but who also don't believe that God doesn't exist.

Again, they must first understand that the spirit and the physical body are separate, the spirit is who you really are, and your body is just the shell that the spirit functions through while the body is alive.

So... do you self-identify as an immortal entity awaiting reincarnation on another planet?

Immortality: John 3:16.

Reincarnation: 1 Corinthians 15:35-38.

Exoplanet: Revelation 21:1.

I had one very meaningful relationship with an atheist and as stated above, all my arguments were a waste of time.

They were probably a waste of time because you wouldn't LISTEN! You don't even know what atheism is!




At least this meme is more fresh, I suppose. But I also doubt that this occurred.


And what of the converse, as I mentioned?


Why do we atheists talk to you when you don't even listen?!

You *don't* have all the answers. You lack the perspective that we atheists have because we once were you. We have an extra perspective. Try listening!
 
Reactions: Larniavc
Upvote 0

RBPerry

Christian Baby Boomer
Site Supporter
Oct 14, 2013
808
302
76
Northern California
✟111,732.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
So far, so good.

Most atheists are not doctors. I'm not one. Are you?

I don't know when exactly a person dies, or if that is even a sensible question. As far as I understand it, death is a process. Not a light switch that goes from on to off.

Other than in the ER, most doctors aren't with patient when they die. Respiratory therapist, Nurses, and Hospice are more frequently. Death can be a slow or long process depending on the cause. If you had been with a few people at the time of death you wouldn't have asked that question.

You challenged my honesty in my comments, so we have nothing else to discuss.
 
Upvote 0

Nihilist Virus

Infectious idea
Oct 24, 2015
4,940
1,251
41
California
✟156,979.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private

So you've been with a few people when they died and now you not only know that we have souls, but you know when they leave the body? OK.

You challenged my honesty in my comments, so we have nothing else to discuss.

No, I never challenged your honesty. I challenged your comprehension. You've just proven me right!
 
Upvote 0
Aug 4, 2006
3,868
1,065
.
✟102,547.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
If you're getting tired of atheists not buying your arguments, perhaps you ought to take another look at them. Perhaps you just don't have any good arguments? If you think that the book Evidence That Demands A Verdict is in any way compelling, then perhaps the Case you make for Christ isn't as iron-clad as you think.
 
Upvote 0

RBPerry

Christian Baby Boomer
Site Supporter
Oct 14, 2013
808
302
76
Northern California
✟111,732.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Looking outside the bible or any other religious books there other sources to consider. "Near-death.com and Resons to believe" are two excellent sources.
Regarding the near death experiences, focus on the ones that were clinically dead and supported by medical professionals. Reason to believe is a group of scientist that present scientific arguments for their faith.

I came to faith in Christ just as Josh McDowell did, looking for a way to prove the bible wrong, as with him, in my opinion I failed, I just found the circumstantial and absolute evidence overwhelming, obviously others haven't.

My purpose of my original post was to point out to other Christians the futility in endless debates that go no where. Evaluate the evidence that is available then decide what one chooses to believe or reject. Most won't take the time to do the research but will hold to whatever their personal opinion is. I fully understand that many non-believers are very well educated and intelligent people, that doesn't mean they are open minded. Many just regurgitate what some professor in their favorite philosophy class has taught, and fail to think for themselves, and yes I got that comment from "Good Will Hunting".
 
Upvote 0

RBPerry

Christian Baby Boomer
Site Supporter
Oct 14, 2013
808
302
76
Northern California
✟111,732.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives

I've read some of your posts and I doubt if we have anything to discuss. Have a wonderful day.
 
Upvote 0

Shadow

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
May 29, 2015
472
402
36
✟139,972.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
My point to all of is why waste a great deal of time with someone that is just looking for an argument, with little or no desire to know the truth?

Speaking as an Atheist and somewhat a guilty party, yes, it is often a considerable waste of time. By all means socialise with Atheists, be friends with them and get to know them. We can be an interesting bunch, demonstrate certain virtues and can be kind to others in our own ways. But it is easier to claim intellectual and moral superiority over believers than to engage with them as people. To Atheists, Religion becomes a "thing" rather than a way of life and a personal journey. We can be too rational and emotionally distant for our own good.

In close company, a select few will demonstrate the intellectual and emotional openness to engage with believers, but the temptation is to "shoot the messenger". The best case scenario is that once you get to know someone, are able to share your experiences and develop respect for each other, people can learn to agree to disagree and that can be conducive to healthier and more civil discussion. The best discussions are often the ones that don't lead anywhere but can take you on a trek through history, philosophy, science and religion out of a sense of play, wonder and exploration.
 
Upvote 0

RBPerry

Christian Baby Boomer
Site Supporter
Oct 14, 2013
808
302
76
Northern California
✟111,732.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives

You make some good points and I agree not to reject anyone and certainly don't give an impression that you as a theist are any wiser than non-believers. There is a saying "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink" and that is true with all of us. We can become so closed minded that we miss the reality of life and it's purposes.
I still work part time at one of the Universities in California, I wear a hat that says "Walk with Jesus", and it really infuriates many here, why, I don't know, and I don't care. I do have several other colleagues that are non-believers that I'm very good friends with, and we have had some wonderful discussions. On the other hand many are just antagonistic and I always wonder what it is in their life that has caused them to look upon Christian with contempt.
I could be a licensed therapist but I refuse to submit to certain requirement of beliefs required in this state, meaning, again, my beliefs and convictions are discriminated against because of political correctness.
What you find is most atheist will not evaluate the Christian beliefs with an open mind, they begin as I once did with the presupposition that isn't to be believed or even considered.
 
Reactions: Shadow
Upvote 0
Aug 4, 2006
3,868
1,065
.
✟102,547.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
I've read some of your posts and I doubt if we have anything to discuss. Have a wonderful day.
I doubt it as well. I'm interested in Christians who can provide rational arguments to support their beliefs (since this is the purpose of this forum).

If you can't do that, well...another Christian who comes on here and can't back up their ideas.
 
Reactions: Larniavc
Upvote 0

BigV

Junior Member
Dec 27, 2007
1,093
267
48
USA, IL
✟49,404.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
What you find is most atheist will not evaluate the Christian beliefs with an open mind, they begin as I once did with the presupposition that isn't to be believed or even considered.
I'm curious, how open is your mind to the non-Christian religions?
 
Upvote 0

RBPerry

Christian Baby Boomer
Site Supporter
Oct 14, 2013
808
302
76
Northern California
✟111,732.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
I'm curious, how open is your mind to the non-Christian religions?
At one point in my life I thought the Buddhism held the answers I was looking for. I have studied a few others. Many other religions have some very good beliefs, but all ended up lacking in one area or another in my opinion. Do you have a specific religion your considering or are part of? One thing I will say about my beliefs is that I'm not a fundamentalist.
 
Upvote 0