Atheist's biggest problems with GOD and religion in general

[flameingcrouton]

Ok... I know in my heart that this thread will be completely in vain because of people's uncany ability to copletely ignore requests from the thread starter, but here goes. In this thread I'd like all Atheists to list their biggest reasons or reasons for not believing in GOD and religion in general. That's it, just tell me ur buggest beef with realigion. I'm doing this to collect information on the atheist's point of view on religion. Now here come's the tricky part that I'm sure will be the undoing of this thread: I'm begging all christians that read this please please pretty please with sugar on top DO NOT POST ANYTHING ON THIS THREAD. I'm collecting information on reasons why people dont like christianity. There is one exception, if a christian that reads this does happen to have a problem with a particular part of the christian religion, please feel free to post it. Well that's it, thnx for taking the time to read this unbearably long preface.

 

[ScMay]

I actually have two things I'll put down.

Evidence

• I have never been presented with any good reason (eg evidence) to believe that Christianity (or any other religion for that matter) is true.
• Evidence seems to go against any of the deities that have been described to me, what is seen does not match what would be expected if these deities existed as described.

Internal Consistency (particularly directed at Christianity since for obvious reasons I know more about it)

• Even if I assume that there is a god and the bible is true I would run into internal inconsistencies, things that just don't fit together. Main ones are the professed actions of god (creating hell, hating sin, 'dying' for us, answering prayers, most rules given out in the OT & some NT, the whole way the bible is written, what was written, etc.) and the claimed attributes of god (all powerful, all knowing/really smart, loves us lots). It just doesn't FIT together.

Some of George Carlin's routines actually do a good job of summarising my reasons actually (weird that...). A few quotes:
"Religion has convinced people that there's an invisible man...living in the sky. Who watches everything you do every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a list of ten specific things he doesn't want you to do. And if you do any of these things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and and choke and scream and cry for ever and ever 'til the end of time.... But he loves you!"
[FONT=&quot]“If this is the best god can do (creating/running the universe) I am not impressed. Results like these do not belong on the resume of a supreme being. This is the kind of [expletive] you’d expect from an office temp with a bad attitude!” [/FONT]

 

[Taure]

I'm a Christian but have a few things that I don't like about it. I have no problem with God, it just his fan club that can sometimes get things wrong, in my view.

Firstly, and most prominantly, is the obsessivness of Christians about the bible, which is nearly deified in modern Christianity. There are several problems related to this:

1. The bible is not literal. This isn't just a personal opinion, that some people can decide not to follow and that's OK - it is the truth. For example, the whole of the Fourth Gospel is a spiritual Gospel, not a historical or chronological one (Marsh). This is shown in how the author of said gospel changes many facts to hold greater symbolism, for example, the date of Jesus' death is moved forward one day in John's gospel, to the day that the lambs were killed, to show that Jesus is the lamb of the world. This is just one part of the bible that is known not to be literal - there are many others. People need to accept ths, and realise that it does not take anything away from what the bible is.

2. The near-deifying of the bible. Jesus is the Word of God, not the bible. The bible is just a couple of manuscripts of books and letters that contain good advice and wisdom. It is not infallible. St. Paul, who is one of the most prolific New Testament writers, admits that he can get some things wrong. Therefore to say that all his words are truth with nothing to count against them is naive.

3. The use of the bible in all situatuions. Do you thing that the disciples had a bible? Did St. Paul? (They had the Jewish scrptures but they were treading out onto completely new groud with what they were doing. These men were responisble for the huge growth of the early church, and they needed no mere book to help them - they were led by the spirit. Obviously the bible is overated.

Secondly, to those Chrisitians who think they have everything sorted - that they know God - I'd like to quote the following, which I wrote in a different thread.

To all those people chanting "God is good":

You call a desk "good", meaning that it is fit for its purpose.

You call bread "good", meaning that it is tasty.

You call a T.V. programme "good", meaning that it entertains you.

You call a man "Good", meaning that he is a moral man.

In every instance, the word "good" has meant different things - it is equivocal.

So the statement "God is good" has no meaning, for we have no idea what type of "good" God partakes in. Perhaps he is tasty like bread, or maybe he is simply fit for his purpose, or perhaps (and most likely) he has a whole different meaning of the word "good" all to himself, one that we do not know. So it is pointless saying "God is good".

Even if you use a qualifier, such as "God is morally good", now you have imposed human morality on God, and as such you have limited him, as humans themselves are limited. A limited God is no God at all. So this doesn't work.

There is no way we can understand God, or even really talk about him (or rather it), so it is silly when trying to make sense of our mysterious journey with him to make any conclusive statements. We can be certain of nothing.

Finally, a problem I have with Christianity is the inability of religious people to allow anything to count against their faith. As humans we should always be after the truth - even if this truth is an inconvienient truth or one that means that we would have to leave our comfort zone of religion. To not allow anything to count against your faith makes you look closed minded, arrogant and ignorant. Not only that, but by not allowing anything to count against it, you are only deluding yourself. If the truth is that that Christianity is wrong, then I would hope that we would all abandon it. As St. Paul said:

"If we are wrong, and Jesus was not raised from the dead, then we above all are to be pitied".

 

[JGL53]

It's not just Christianity - its belief in the supernatural in general.

Religion is myth. A person either understands this, or will believe that one of the particular myths is literally true.

The origins of religious belief, and the reasons many if not most people have and always had religious beliefs are to be understood in psychological, sociological, and cultural anthropological terms.

Unfortunately, humans are not only rational animals, they are rationalizing animals. Thus, many who understand that all the ancient myths are just myths many times turn to a new rationalized secular mythos that is just a created system of belief and thus make just as big fools of themselves as any religious believer, e.g., communists and Randian objectavists. And, of course, the many who just become mentally ill for various reasons are unclassifiable as to philosophical belief.

The majority of humans are messed up - not because I say so - just look around. If one doesn't become a cynic, one can only hope the human race will work its way up from the dark into the light, mayhap many years from now. That would be nice.

End of story.

 

[Asimov]

Ok... I know in my heart that this thread will be completely in vain because of people's uncany ability to copletely ignore requests from the thread starter, but here goes. In this thread I'd like all Atheists to list their biggest reasons or reasons for not believing in GOD and religion in general.

1. God is a meaningless concept.
2. God is an illogical concept.
3. There is nothing to indicate a God is necessary or existant.
4. There is nothing to indicate anything supernatural exists.
5. All argumentations and evidence that theists use to support their claims are invalid.

 

[JGL53]

1. God is a meaningless concept.
2. God is an illogical concept.
3. There is nothing to indicate a God is necessary or existant.
4. There is nothing to indicate anything supernatural exists.
5. All argumentations and evidence that theists use to support their claims are invalid.

Good post. I would agree and just add the caveat, actually a statement of the obvious, that the famous "burden of proof" is on those who disagree. I.e., atheism is and has always been the default position.

 

[Socrastein]

I think the biggest reason I do not believe in any God or gods is that the concept is not only illogical, but completely unnecessary. There is no need to believe in God. The reasons people popularly suggest God must exist to explain this or that are all very unconvincing.

We do not need God to explain the universe. Advancements in quantum physics are doing a very good job of painting a natural scenario for the beginning of the universe.

We do not need God to explain life. Evolution and research into abiogenesis have painting a natural scenario for the beginning of life on our planet.

We do not need God to explain morality. There are many, many systems of morality and evolutionary explanations for the origins of morality that do not rely on the presumption of any metaphysical beings.

There are many things that the faithful have over the years pointed to as proof that God must exist, lest a said phenomenon does not make sense or cannot be explained. Not only is this invalid reasoning, but these things have been explained, without any supernatural suppositions.

Everywhere we look, we see things that are explainable and understandable without the need of any God. This begs the question, why would anyone adhere to such an unecessary concept?

 

[JGL53]

...Everywhere we look, we see things that are explainable and understandable without the need of any God. This begs the question, why would anyone adhere to such an unnecessary concept?

Hard to say for sure but I would guess:

- the fear of death, i.e., total annihilation or non-existence, which includes accepting that one will never attain all one wishes (i.e., some sort of heaven).

- the insistent desire that one MUST be ultimately important - and the utter fascination with one's own complex and wonderful self (which MUST not be just a natural phenomena lacking ultimate "meaning")

- utter distaste for admitting error (really, in this case, essentially admitting that one has been wrong for a lifetime).

- argument of mass appeal, i.e., if everyone I know believes, then it must be so. Who am I to disagree?

- argument from authority and venerability, i.e., if authorities, existing from ancient times, say it is true, then it must be true. Who am I to disagree?

- Ignorance of science and its explanatory power (thus, the never-dying "god of the gaps" assertions.



Am I close, religionists?

 

[Taure]

Am I close, religionists?

Pretty much. Of course, most - those who aren't honest with themselves - will say you aren't.

- the fear of death, i.e., total annihilation or non-existence, which includes accepting that one will never attain all one wishes (i.e., some sort of heaven).

If I'm honest with myself, I'd guess that this is why I believe in God.

- the insistent desire that one MUST be ultimately important - and the utter fascination with one's own complex and wonderful self (which MUST not be just a natural phenomena lacking ultimate "meaning")

I don't really see anything wrong with this one. We are, after all, the most amazing thing that we have found in this universe.

- utter distaste for admitting error (really, in this case, essentially admitting that one has been wrong for a lifetime).

- argument of mass appeal, i.e., if everyone I know believes, then it must be so. Who am I to disagree?

- argument from authority and venerability, i.e., if authorities, existing from ancient times, say it is true, then it must be true. Who am I to disagree?

- Ignorance of science and its explanatory power (thus, the never-dying "god of the gaps" assertions.

Lots of people believe for these reasons I feel. Not very good reasons in my opinion, but then who am I to judge, especially as I fall for the first one?

 

[JGL53]

Pretty much. Of course, most - those who aren't honest with themselves - will say you aren't.

If I'm honest with myself, I'd guess that this is why I believe in God....

And I actually have nothing bad to say about this. As long as organized religion either didn't exist, or stayed completely out of politics, I would say live and let live. That is no law of nature that says we all must agree on the ultimate questions.

I don't really see anything wrong with this one. We are, after all, the most amazing thing that we have found in this universe...

Actually, I stand as amazed as you do, even at the fact of existence itself. Many people besides us do also, including many atheists.

It's just that atheists don't make the grab-your-butt-and-hope jump from "humans are mega- amazing" to "therefore humans must exist forever, once they appear on the scene."

There is no reason for the "therefore" that I can see. You?

 

[Taure]

There is no reason for the "therefore" that I can see. You?

Nope. That particular therefore I can't see. After all, humanity will eventually die out - theres no escaping it.

A "therefore" I can see, however, is, "humans are amazing, and we don't really understand all that we are, especially the brain - maybe there is something more to us than the physical. The mind is a strange and powerful thing, as is consciousness and being self-aware".

 

[JGL53]

Nope. That particular therefore I can't see. After all, humanity will eventually die out - theres no escaping it.

A "therefore" I can see, however, is, "humans are amazing, and we don't really understand all that we are, especially the brain - maybe there is something more to us than the physical. The mind is a strange and powerful thing, as is consciousness and being self-aware".

I can see being an agnostic about an immortal soul. But is assuming that such is a vain wish and just getting on with life and not worrying about it much - is that a reasonable choice? That is my choice. I seem to sleep pretty soundly at night.

 

[Opethian]

1. There is no evidence at all for any gods, especially a specific personal god like the christian god. There is also no need for any gods.
2. There are so many religions, and nearly all of them claim they are the only true one. It seems to me the chance that all of them are wrong is greater than the chance that one of them is right.
3. Everything that I have learned about religion so far, indicates to me that men create gods, rather than gods create men.
4. The way fundamentalists behave and think, and the way that religion is very often passed on (and in many cases indoctrinated) from parents to children is only a testament to me how logic and rational thinking, in most cases, have no bearing on choosing or having a certain religion.
5. The reasons for having a religion seem pretty clear to me. They have nothing to do with understanding reality.
6. The pain and suffering that religions bring into the world, the conflicts and hatred they cause, turn me off greatly. Religion may do some good, but it is heavily outweighed by the damage it causes.

etc...

 

[GodSchism]

Ok... I know in my heart that this thread will be completely in vain because of people's uncany ability to copletely ignore requests from the thread starter, but here goes. In this thread I'd like all Atheists to list their biggest reasons or reasons for not believing in GOD and religion in general. That's it, just tell me ur buggest beef with realigion. I'm doing this to collect information on the atheist's point of view on religion. Now here come's the tricky part that I'm sure will be the undoing of this thread: I'm begging all christians that read this please please pretty please with sugar on top DO NOT POST ANYTHING ON THIS THREAD. I'm collecting information on reasons why people dont like christianity. There is one exception, if a christian that reads this does happen to have a problem with a particular part of the christian religion, please feel free to post it. Well that's it, thnx for taking the time to read this unbearably long preface.

I am a Christian and I do have a problem with the religion. People seem to think that when they say praise Jesus this and praise Jesus that--means that they're confessing the faith, however, in my view it is not Praise Jesus this and praise Jesus that is what confesses the faith. It is the confession of the words of his prophecy, things such as; blessed are the poor and money is the root of all evil--are the things that need to be emphasized. If you watch any Christian programming these two things are hardly emphasized--that the poor are the blessed and that money is the root of all evil. They need to stop fooling around with things such as; if you give us money we will see that God will help in your finances; when God says, you cannot serve God and mammon. I wish Christians would stop pretending that virtue and holiness are by far, the most important things in faith. NO! Poverty and the root of all evil are the things that have to be addressed. Otherwise faith becomes a middle class extravaganza and a thing that sustains the wealthy from accepting the true necessities of the faith: helping the least of these and eliminating the need for money.

 

[k]

As a christian iam deeply disturbed as to how western churches have become the very places jesus condemned.

 

[meebs]

In this thread I'd like all Atheists to list their biggest reasons or reasons for not believing in GOD and religion in general.

Lack of evidence of ANY deity or supernatural causes.

Even if presented with "evidence" i would be skeptical. What if a being did present itself as a "god" and could do amazing and wonderful things? How would we know it's not a more advance form of life (hypothetical of course ) who's technology would seem miraculous and magical to us?

Lack of beleif (relates to lack of evidence) how can i beleive in something that does not seem to be there?

 

[meebs]

3. Everything that I have learned about religion so far, indicates to me that men create gods, rather than gods create men.

Agreed!

I see deities created as a reflection of humanity or as an anthropomorphism of nature.

 

[MrGoodBytes]

1. Lack of evidence for the existence of anything supernatural

2. Lack of evidence for the existence of any specific deities.

3. Religions contradicting each other.

4. Religions contradicting themselves (God is omnibenevolent and creates Hell?)

5. The things believers are forbidden to do, for no apparent reason.

 

[HouseApe]

1. There is no evidence that God exists.

2. It is all too understandable why people would believe in God even though there is no evidence one (or more) exists.

3. That a God would create rational humans and then require faith (not evidence) just makes it so evident that said God was just made up a long time ago by priests and for priests to make a living off the masses.

I would imagine it would be very difficult for Christians to see the points raised on this thread and try to find convincing arguments to oppose them.

 

[BibleMadeMeDoIt]

At this point in my life I would consider myself more an atheist than agnostic.

My reasons for not believing in a god or religion:

1. I have no need or purpose for a belief in a god. I do not seek supernatural help with my life or the lives of others around me. I do not have a desire to live in heaven after my death. I dont see heaven or hell as beneficial to myself or others.

2. The gods people believe in now are just remakes of the gods of people in the past who believed that the gods were responsible for things like rain and fertility. Anything unexplained or not understood was the workings of the gods.

3. Religions as a whole have been responsible for too much unnessecary blood shed. Humans use the religions and gods as a way to control each other and its wrong.

My reasons for not believe in Christianity

1. After a in depth study of the NT portion and the early years of Christianity, I found it all to be simply another made up religion like all previous others. The bible is the only evidence presented to prove that Jesus Christ was the Jewish Messiah and it does not follow the ideas of the Messiah according to the OT.

2. I find that the Christian faith is built on the misunderstandings and misrepresentations of "prophesies" from another religion that I believe to be untrue. In order for me to believe in Christianity I must believe that Judaism or the religion of the Hebrews was indeed true and I do not believe this.