Atheists are Dangerous!

[KCfromNC]

I don't get what you mean.

People running totalitarian governments being antithetical to human lives happens in cases where believers are the people running the show as well.

 

[KCfromNC]

Sure, that works ok within the society we have. The discussion was ongoing from the first point of what a society rooted in atheistic philosophy looks like, and the only example I know of is communism, as practiced in the USSR in particular but around the world also.

You might want to take a look at secular democracies next.

 

[Tom 1]

People running totalitarian governments being antithetical to human lives happens in cases where believers are the people running the show as well.

Yes I know. This isn't a but this but that discussion, personally I think that the communist govts that have existed to date have provided some of the worst examples, but the original discussion wasn't about 'who's the worst'. A more useful discussion would be about why.

 

[Tom 1]

You might want to take a look at secular democracies next.

Secular democracies are the end result of a long process, heavily influenced by Christian principles. For an atheist’s view on that you can read Bart Erhman.

 

[Tom 1]

I am taking offence at your flawed interpretation of historical events

What do you mean exactly?

 

[Tom 1]

I am taking offence at your flawed interpretation of historical events. Everything you are saying of atheistic society can be equally applied to religious societies. Indeed there are far more examples of violence and evil in the latter since there have been more such societies.

I can’t really think of a comparison with soviet Russia, not saying there might not be one but I’m not aware of it.

 

[Speedwell]

Secular democracies are the end result of a long process, heavily influenced by Christian principles. For an atheist’s view on that you can read Bart Erhman.

Whose atheism is the end result of a long process, heavily influenced by Christian principles.

 

[Tom 1]

Whose atheism is the end result of a long process, heavily influenced by Christian principles.

Yes there’s certainly that, that’s a part of it. Or to some extent anyway.

 

[KCfromNC]

Secular democracies are the end result of a long process, heavily influenced by Christian principles.

If having lots of Christians around when something was developed means that it was heavily influenced by Christian principles, then Marxism was heavily influenced by Christian principles as well.

 

[Tom 1]

If having lots of Christians around when something was developed means that it was heavily influenced by Christian principles, then Marxism was heavily influenced by Christian principles as well.

There's a bit more to it than that. If you've got something a bit more substantive then it'd be worth talking about. I don't really want to just get into an exchange of flippant remarks. You can read through the thread and offer some thoughts on it if you like.

 

[Speedwell]

There's a bit more to it than that. If you've got something a bit more substantive then it'd be worth talking about. I don't really want to just get into an exchange of flippant remarks. You can read through the thread and offer some thoughts on it if you like.

No thanks--it's too much like playing "No True Scotsmen." Christian influence is responsible for everything good and if it appears that Christianity influenced something bad then it wasn't really Christianity. It's the same line of argument that shores up pretensions of the innate superiority of Western Christian Civilization.

 

[durangodawood]

But a prelude eh....

Yes. It was but eh prelude!

My apologies for assuming the typical comparison: Atheists are dangerous (compared to believers).

Minus the comparison, I totally agree: atheists are dangerous, like...
Christians are dangerous
Muslims are dangerous
and especially: men are dangerous.

 

[Tom 1]

No thanks--it's too much like playing "No True Scotsmen." Christian influence is responsible for everything good and if it appears that Christianity influenced something bad then it wasn't really Christianity. It's the same line of argument that shores up pretensions of the innate superiority of Western Christian Civilization.

No, I don't think it is, you're reading too much into what is more an attempt to avoid getting sidetracked. There is a lot in Western Civilization that is good and useful, and the structure around which it grew has a lot to do with Christianity. That isn't the same as saying what you have read into it. Whether or not it is superior to other civilisations is another question. What I mean by substantive is something that can actually be discussed, because it has some substance to it. I'm interested in the influence on UK society of old Norse and Germanic cultures, which has largely been overridden by the influence of the classical world and Christianity, that would be something interesting to discuss, I mean discuss by looking at some of the events and attitudes etc as opposed to just exchanging comments.

 

[Tom 1]

I am taking offence at your flawed interpretation of historical events. Everything you are saying of atheistic society can be equally applied to religious societies. Indeed there are far more examples of violence and evil in the latter since there have been more such societies.

I think some of it has to do with the nature of sudden or dramatic change. People need roots, whether we are aware of or think about it or not, our cultural history gives us deep roots that inform not just what we think but the way we think. Communism, in practice, in China, the USSR and NK in particular, tried to delve deep into the human mind to get rid of all of that, by literally or figuratively burning and destroying everything that went before (something comparable to the inverse of Christian groups burning new or heretical books, but on a broader and deeper scale) and trying effectively to write over it, to replace the totality of human experience via the forcible application of theories and the practices that grew out of those, the changing of the theory to adapt to or try to control unexpected circumstances is/was inevitable. I don't see how you can get around that last point.

 

[durangodawood]

....I'm interested in the influence on UK society of old Norse and Germanic cultures, which has largely been overridden by the influence of the classical world and Christianity, that would be something interesting to discuss, I mean discuss by looking at some of the events and attitudes etc as opposed to just exchanging comments.

I'm of English descent, and the guess in the family is there's significant Scandinavian "blood" in there. But all I know of your above interest is what I've learned from "The Last Kingdom", which presents the Danes as having some fine personal values, but no good sense at all of organizing an enduring regime to govern anything larger than a village or maybe a county.

Possibly the age old Hebrew sense of God as a God of human history provided a deeper grounding for society-building than the did Norse gods of personal valor.

 

[Tom 1]

I'm of English descent, and the guess in the family is there's significant Scandinavian "blood" in there. But all I know of your above interest is what I've learned from "The Last Kingdom", which presents the Danes as having some fine personal values, but no good sense at all of organizing an enduring regime to govern anything larger than a village or maybe a county.

Possibly the age old Hebrew sense of God as a God of human history provided a deeper grounding for society-building than the did Norse gods of personal valor.

Reading Beowulf is interesting, it was written in England sometime between 700-1000 BC, but might have been a bit older than that as a spoken tale. Christianity was still pretty new to England then, and the Christian references in the poem seem like 'add ons', so you can get a good sense of what seem to be pre-existing values and ideals with a Christian spin on some of them. There are in there the things you'd expect about valour and the ability to fight etc, but also a lot about diplomacy, the need for leaders to be responsible, to forge alliances and so on. The story is set within real events to some extent, and people in Northern Europe then were very keenly aware of the devastating effects of war on small, precarious communities, so irresponsible leaders got pretty short shrift from the people they led.

 

[Tom 1]

Possibly the age old Hebrew sense of God as a God of human history provided a deeper grounding for society-building than the did Norse gods of personal valor.

Could be. When Roman missionaries took Christianity North they adapted the Roman idea of Jesus as holy, powerful etc. and portrayed him as a warrior, fighting to get on the cross so that he could win the battle against death. Beowulf links with older stories, albeit in a vague way, linking Grendel to Cain is some way that isn't quite clear and appears to be blended in with Nordic myths about monsters and demons.
In any case the teachings and practice of Christianity sunk into the culture slowly and gradually and took a long time to take their modern form.

 

[Tinker Grey]

In any case the teachings and practice of Christianity sunk into the culture slowly and gradually and took a long time to take their modern form.

My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter.

 

[durangodawood]

Could be. When Roman missionaries took Christianity North they adapted the Roman idea of Jesus as holy, powerful etc. and portrayed him as a warrior, fighting to get on the cross so that he could win the battle against death. Beowulf links with older stories, albeit in a vague way, linking Grendel to Cain is some way that isn't quite clear and appears to be blended in with Nordic myths about monsters and demons.
In any case the teachings and practice of Christianity sunk into the culture slowly and gradually and took a long time to take their modern form.

Interesting.

I'm thinking of how a Christian king in Britain could have seen his rule as divinely sanctioned, and his mission to establish a broad and enduring stability on earth for God and Christ. Its a broader motivating story than the Dane's had. (I think, based on my extensive research drawings on certain popular tv shows)

 

[Speedwell]

No, I don't think it is, you're reading too much into what is more an attempt to avoid getting sidetracked. There is a lot in Western Civilization that is good and useful, and the structure around which it grew has a lot to do with Christianity. That isn't the same as saying what you have read into it. Whether or not it is superior to other civilisations is another question. What I mean by substantive is something that can actually be discussed, because it has some substance to it. I'm interested in the influence on UK society of old Norse and Germanic cultures, which has largely been overridden by the influence of the classical world and Christianity, that would be something interesting to discuss, I mean discuss by looking at some of the events and attitudes etc as opposed to just exchanging comments.

Actually, I agree with you. But my impression is that when the innate superiority of "Western Christian Civilization" is being touted what is really meant by it is White Northern European Protestant culture.