Atheists/Agnostics & Death

[Eudaimonist]

Most atheists I know and work with believe (oops used that word) that they become worm food upon death and that's it. How depressing.

It's not that depressing. What matters is one's life, not one's death.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Rapp]

That's a very Spiritual passage. It has nothing to do with being "better." It is all about being saved.

Exactly

 

[Eudaimonist]

I don't believe I used the word "unpleasant." The fact is if we believe the atheist we become worm food upon death, that's it. Quite a philosophy based on blind faith. Blind faith because the atheist has nothing to backup this 'belief.' Whereas over 500 people witnessed the Risen Christ. That's faith based on the evidence.

Hardly blind. It is the obvious conclusion based on biological research and brain science. It requires faith to believe in an afterlife.

You have "500" witnesses who left no individual testimonies or solid evidence, or even a list of names.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[redleghunter]

Hardly blind. It is the obvious conclusion based on biological research and brain science. It requires faith to believe in an afterlife.

You have "500" witnesses who left no individual testimonies or solid evidence, or even a list of names.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Sure, it's called the New Testament. Summarized in 1 Corithians 15 by the Apostle Paul. But yes the flesh dies we all know that from observation. Only the Power of God can make the dead, alive. That is what was demonstrated in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. The old perishable flesh is put away, and a new imperishable is put on. The Promise is those who follow Christ will end up like Him.

 

[Chris B]

This thread is wandering dangerously close to apologetics.

Ah well let's return with a Woody Allen quote which reflects how I feel

“I'm not afraid of death; I just don't want to be there when it happens.” ..

I've seen two people die badly and that's two too many. I will take fair lengths to avoid a bad death, if it becomes necessary.

Chris

 

[Winken]

Rabbis actually admit to having fabricated heaven, Resurrection and afterlife rewards during trying times for religious Jews who needed hope and comfort about present suffering, Christianity adopted the rabbinical approach to justify the failures of Jesus in not changing anything material and prophetically profound as expected of a Messiah during his run on earth giving him a second chance in the second coming. Since Religion is built on faith in a higher power its only plausible that there has to be a place of residency for that power but this is mere faith proves nothing disproves nothing.

Since we ve kinda lived in Christendom influence for the past 2 millennials I guess that conditioning triggers guilt when one needs to un-apologetically admit that its a made man concept. Religion must progress beyond mere faith in favor of scientific research of its beliefs and dogmas as means and a process to qualify and prove their claims. This will advance and help humanity in the spirit intellectual honesty.

Really? Which Rabbis admitted that? When? Where? Which Messianic text do you read?

 

[Eudaimonist]

Sure, it's called the New Testament. Summarized in 1 Corithians 15 by the Apostle Paul.

In other words, not 500 witnesses as claimed. Just one guy who claimed to have had a vision of Jesus, but never met him.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Colter]

In other words, not 500 witnesses as claimed. Just one guy who claimed to have had a vision of Jesus, but never met him.


eudaimonia,

Mark

It was assumed that Jesus would soon return. Luke interviewed eye witnesses.

 

[Chris B]

Most Atheist who find God retell how an experience lead them to reach out to God rather than stumbling upon God by logical deduction. .

I can't answer for other atheists, but I know to be suspicious of experiences too. They also don't have to be true no matter how powerful they are and how real they seem. Been there, had some doozies. Turned out not to be what the most decidedly appeared to be on first encounter.
John Wesley found "his heart strangely warmed" and interpreted that a particular way.
But a range of things can produce a "heart, strangely warmed."

It has been my experience that Atheist that Join Christian forums generally want to argue with people of faith, demonstrate their pretentious mental gymnastics.

You may be right in general, I can't say. I can only answer for me.
I hold that "faith", unspecified, is at least as often vice as it is virtue.
(Wouldn't a Christian evangelist wish someone to STOP having faith... in their non-Christian deities or beliefs?)

Gymnastics no. Straight line wherever possible. Anything else gets in the way of the content of a discussion, which is far more useful.
But yes, check each link in a chain of argument, or look to see the supports of anything asserted as universal truth.
Why wouldn't you, if the issue was important enough?

Chris.

 

[redleghunter]

In other words, not 500 witnesses as claimed. Just one guy who claimed to have had a vision of Jesus, but never met him.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Then I guess the Gallic wars never happened if we rely only on Gaius Julius Caesar right? The NT has more than one author. Peter, Jude, John, Mark, Luke, and Matthew confirm Paul's message of witness.

 

[Chris B]

Kind of tough. Most atheists I know and work with believe (oops used that word) that they become worm food upon death and that's it. How depressing.

Have you never sung "On Ilkley Moor bar t'at" with great gusto and enjoyment?
And anyway, the medical vultures are going to have a good pick of me when I go, so not so much for worms after I've been chopped up and roasted. More rose-fertiliser than anything else.
Anyway, if we do "become word food" what's the point in building a happier looking fantasy in the hope of achieving denial?
I'll take a reality, uncomfortable or otherwise, over an appealing false hope, any time.

I cannot put it better than T H Huxley, an atheist faced with the sudden death of his young child.
"...had I lived a couple of centuries earlier I could have fancied a devil scoffing at me and them–and asking me what profit it was to have stripped myself of the hopes and consolations of the mass of mankind? To which my only reply was and is–Oh devil! truth is better than much profit. I have searched over the grounds of my belief, and if wife and child and name and fame were all to be lost to me one after the other as the penalty, still I will not lie."
(letter to Charles Kingsley, Sept 23rd 1860)

Chris

 

[Chris B]

2 Timothy 2:14-16

Not sure of the point being made.
(Though I could easily have used a bible quote 30 years ago... I did that a lot.)

 

[Cute Tink]

I don't believe I used the word "unpleasant." The fact is if we believe the atheist we become worm food upon death, that's it. Quite a philosophy based on blind faith. Blind faith because the atheist has nothing to backup this 'belief.' Whereas over 500 people witnessed the Risen Christ. That's faith based on the evidence.

I don't believe that I said you did. The point remains, whether it is "depressing" or not has no bearing on what I can believe.

You are listing 500 people who I cannot verify the existence of (outside of the Bible), cannot talk to and, honestly, cannot determine were not on serious drugs.

I don't need faith to determine that I have no reason to believe in God. Sorry. That's not a faith based belief. Not even a belief. It's a lack of one.

 

[Willis Gravning]

Ah well let's return with a Woody Allen quote which reflects how I feel

“I'm not afraid of death; I just don't want to be there when it happens.” ..

I've seen two people die badly and that's two too many. I will take fair lengths to avoid a bad death, if it becomes necessary.

Chris

Thanks for bringing us back on topic. I agree, death isn't as frightening as the suffering that might precede it. Sometimes the best we can do is to try to alleviate suffering.

 

[Colter]

I can't answer for other atheists, but I know to be suspicious of experiences too. They also don't have to be true no matter how powerful they are and how real they seem. Been there, had some doozies. Turned out not to be what the most decidedly appeared to be on first encounter.
John Wesley found "his heart strangely warmed" and interpreted that a particular way.
But a range of things can produce a "heart, strangely warmed."



You may be right in general, I can't say. I can only answer for me.
I hold that "faith", unspecified, is at least as often vice as it is virtue.
(Wouldn't a Christian evangelist wish someone to STOP having faith... in their non-Christian deities or beliefs?)

Gymnastics no. Straight line wherever possible. Anything else gets in the way of the content of a discussion, which is far more useful.
But yes, check each link in a chain of argument, or look to see the supports of anything asserted as universal truth.
Why wouldn't you, if the issue was important enough?

Chris.

Good point on the evangelical hope that another leave their faith. In my theology the faintest flicker of faith in the crudest form of worship is all the is required.

To the finite mind reality is shadowy, relative and in no sence can it claim to know absolute truth.

 

[Don Darling]

I've lost a friend recently who was an atheist. As he would put it, a 'dogmatic' atheist.' I consider myself to have an atheistic view, but also agnostic. I was once a Christian, a very pious one. I keep wondering about an after life, since his passing. If there is one, and if there is...what might a religious person tell an atheist in such a case?

Just thinking out loud, I guess.

God is LOVE, if you have any measure of love in you, then so is HE......"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free" ...well, "God is Truth, and they that worship Him (to serve) must do so in Spirit, and in Truth".....My friend in Christ, I sought after spiritual truth in my teens and twenties, until He found me! He has poured out His Spirit on all flesh, thus the "New Age" movement....I would be happy to share more if you like...Don:^)|

 

[Eyes wide Open]

I've lost a friend recently who was an atheist. As he would put it, a 'dogmatic' atheist.' I consider myself to have an atheistic view, but also agnostic. I was once a Christian, a very pious one. I keep wondering about an after life, since his passing. If there is one, and if there is...what might a religious person tell an atheist in such a case?

Just thinking out loud, I guess.

I think when we are around loved ones or friends that die or about to die that it’s only natural to ask where they are gone, or going, or for it to be more prevalent to ask at that time. We ask that question because we can, we can ponder that question. But that doesn't mean we have the answer, nor does it mean we find the answer as a way to stop the question, the question of where we go will always be asked at some point in our lives and it will always be an unknown. Yes you can form a belief on where you go, and have a basis for that belief, but its still an unknown. So what the Christian has to tell the Atheist in a general sense is irrelevant. Yes they can tell them what they believe and the basis for it, but anybody that has a sound, reasoned and mature mind will not really care for others opinions at that time, and those with a sound, reasoned and mature mind (even if they have a belief and basis for it) will understand how unwise it is to force feed a theology at this time. You treat the person with the respect they deserve at that time and be of assistance where you can, and if an atheist asks the question to a Christian on the topic of the afterlife then it does open the door to some extent for them to give thier point of view, otherwise there is no real point to their view other than some self gratifying element to the person coming forth with their beliefs.

 

[As I was saying]

It's difficult to tell Atheist anything of a spiritual nature, they generally have to discover the truth through experience and painful ego deflation or not. Not every acorn becomes a tree, the gift of choice in the will of the children of God allows us to chose God or forsake him. Some people choose the doctrines of death.

So true Colter. The scripture tells us that God has blinded their eyes to the truth so they cannot see and that the natural man cannot discern the things of the Spirit. if you insist on trying to understand God with natural thoughts and ideas you are going to end up the creek without a paddle. The scripture says that without faith it is impossible to please God. Faith is an unknown quantity for an atheist because he relies entirely on his own logic which most of the time is not logical.

I am pleased to say that some atheists do find out the truth when they are open to learn the truth. Examples are Malcolm Muggeridge, Anthony Flew, Derek Prince, Christopher Hitchens brother, C.S Lewis, Kirk Cameron, Douglas Ell, Guillaume Bignon, Jennifer Fulwiler and Rosaria Champagne Butterfield to name a few.

 

[Alawishis]

Well to tell the truth, most religions tell the story of an afterlife that reads like a fantastical story that's hard to believe. It goes something like this we all have immortal spirits in our body and when we die we do not "surely" die, but we go on living into eternity as a type of vapourous ghost. So we don't die we just change forms. Then other go on to outline where you go to spend eternity as a ghost.

None of that ever sounded logical to me. Plus I never liked hearing that God who is a God of immeasurable love was going to burn some people for eternity. I didn't want anything to do with the kind of god that thinks eternal torture is love.

My journey into scripture opened my eyes. None of that stuff is in there. The Bible is very clear when we die, that's it we're dead, kaput. The only afterlife is through resurrection. God doesn't burn people forever. God has created a place for us, He wants us all there. But, to be truthful many people will chose otherwise. Many people love a lot of things they don't want to give up. Those people, like your friend, would not be happy in heaven. It, quite frankly, would be like hell for them. None of the things we could not bear to give up will be in heaven. It's sad that many will chose a different path, but really it's their choice to make, and God died to ensure everyone has that choice. We can all plainly see that sin is destroying this world. God's ultimate plan is rid all creation of sin, once and for all. But, God's plan is not for everyone. Some of us love our sins too much to be a part of that plan.

As for the question about what should a Christian say to an atheist, this is the best discourse I've seen:
http://www.digma.co/atheist-too/

 

[Archaeopteryx]

So true Colter. The scripture tells us that God has blinded their eyes to the truth so they cannot see and that the natural man cannot discern the things of the Spirit. if you insist on trying to understand God with natural thoughts and ideas you are going to end up the creek without a paddle. The scripture says that without faith it is impossible to please God. Faith is an unknown quantity for an atheist because he relies entirely on his own logic which most of the time is not logical.

I am pleased to say that some atheists do find out the truth when they are open to learn the truth. Examples are Malcolm Muggeridge, Anthony Flew, Derek Prince, Christopher Hitchens brother, C.S Lewis, Kirk Cameron, Douglas Ell, Guillaume Bignon, Jennifer Fulwiler and Rosaria Champagne Butterfield to name a few.

What about Dan Barker, Jerry DeWitt, Seth Andrews, Matt Dillahunty, Ryan Bell, Vyckie Garrison, and all the members of The Clergy Project?