Atheists/Agnostics & Death

[Crowns&Laurels]

You miss the early origins of atheism, and the importance of not being seen as atheist in any time and place where non conformity was dangerous. Many of those known as "deists" were functional atheists using a broadly acceptable cover-word.
And as far as the numbers of theist, world-wide, I'd be far more impressed if there was any consistency about the nature, values purpose, desires of of the God believed in. I actually take that to point to God as a man-made concept.

A deist is simply someone who believes in an impersonal creator, preferred by those who had never found a spiritual relationship but still find it absurd to consider that there is no god.
There was no reason for a person to need to 'cover' their belief in that way, as the denial of the Abrahamic God alone sufficed for heresy. They were not atheists.

And there's no consistency in the values, purpose, and desires of atheists either. You are trying to say God is a man-made concept based on the errors of people. So what you are really taking to point to God as fictional is just plain old prejudice of certain religious people which is one of the prime causes of anti-theism.

 

[Chris B]

Being scientific for a moment, since energy cannot be created nor destroyed, maybe it is transferred to something else.

Somewhere...else?

"energy cannot be created nor destroyed, " but it can become unavailable to do any work.
Only a *difference* in energy levels allows that. And as energy evens out, less and less is available to power anything.

(renewable energy sources aren't, strictly... though they are pretty long-term.)

 

[Chris B]

A deist is simply someone who believes in an impersonal creator, preferred by those who had never found a spiritual relationship but still find it absurd to consider that there is no god.

No. Some of those certainly existed but they weren't the only people to be found adopting the term, by a long way.

There was no reason for a person to need to 'cover' their belief in that way, as the denial of the Abrahamic God alone sufficed for heresy. They were not atheists.

Deists in the period when popular were not pursued as other "heretics" were.
Catholics burned Protestants, Protestants burned Catholics and both burned anabaptists...
Wonderful wonderful sincere pursuit of heresy...#

And there's no consistency in the values, purpose, and desires of atheists either. You are trying to say God is a man-made concept based on the errors of people. So what you are really taking to point to God as fictional is just plain old prejudice of certain religious people which is one of the prime causes of anti-theism.

We vary mostly because there only one thing on which we have to mostly agree. Everything else is open.
And yes, I would defend the idea of "God" being a man-made concept lacking in objective truth.
Many religious people, theists, have been anti-theistic when it came down to people believing in the "wrong" God.
I just note *all* the arguments on *all* sides and arrive at what seems a reasonable possibility: what if they are ALL right in their denunciations?

 

[Willis Gravning]

This thread is wandering dangerously close to apologetics.

 

[Colter]

Do you have any particular reason to suppose they have less in the way of experience, or put in less in the way of effort, than you have?
So why suppose they have ended up with a poorer answer than you have?
It's a bit of a special pleading to say that if thought, experience and struggle matters, then yours must take priority over anyone else's. Not least because if it was a good argument then the rest of the world could adopt it and use it against you.

Most Atheist who find God retell how an experience lead them to reach out to God rather than stumbling upon God by logical deduction.

It has been my experience that Atheist that Join Christian forums generally want to argue with people of faith, demonstrate their pretentious mental gymnastics.

 

[Colter]

Agreed. Some proposed answers on certain big topics and questions are so separated that trying to take and average of them, or find a compromise between them, or fiddling around with definitions, is just nonsense.

It would take a massive amount of work, and still be unconvincing, to try to imagine a universe where both Grace and Karma were ruling factors.
Where reincarnation was and was not a reality...
Getting down to something like "This gun is loaded" "This gun is not loaded" one just starts to see where the form of words and exact concepts might to begin to matter*, but on the larger divides this does not provide enough wiggle room to bridge the gap.

*"this gun is loaded but cannot fire..."?

Yes, God either is or he isn't.

 

[Quebase]

I've lost a friend recently who was an atheist. As he would put it, a 'dogmatic' atheist.' I consider myself to have an atheistic view, but also agnostic. I was once a Christian, a very pious one. I keep wondering about an after life, since his passing. If there is one, and if there is...what might a religious person tell an atheist in such a case?

Just thinking out loud, I guess.

Rabbis actually admit to having fabricated heaven, Resurrection and afterlife rewards during trying times for religious Jews who needed hope and comfort about present suffering, Christianity adopted the rabbinical approach to justify the failures of Jesus in not changing anything material and prophetically profound as expected of a Messiah during his run on earth giving him a second chance in the second coming. Since Religion is built on faith in a higher power its only plausible that there has to be a place of residency for that power but this is mere faith proves nothing disproves nothing.

Since we ve kinda lived in Christendom influence for the past 2 millennials I guess that conditioning triggers guilt when one needs to un-apologetically admit that its a made man concept. Religion must progress beyond mere faith in favor of scientific research of its beliefs and dogmas as means and a process to qualify and prove their claims. This will advance and help humanity in the spirit intellectual honesty.

 

[redleghunter]

I've lost a friend recently who was an atheist. As he would put it, a 'dogmatic' atheist.' I consider myself to have an atheistic view, but also agnostic. I was once a Christian, a very pious one. I keep wondering about an after life, since his passing. If there is one, and if there is...what might a religious person tell an atheist in such a case?

Just thinking out loud, I guess.

I am sorry for your loss. No matter faith or no faith losing a loved one or friend is sorrowful for all.

Before dialoging on your question can you explain your Christian 'experience.' You said 'pious one.' Can you expand on that a bit. I ask because you obviously are familiar with Christianity and not just learning about it.

 

[redleghunter]

In truth, I never believed in an after life, even as a Christian. I felt pious about my belief in Jesus, etc...but, an after life...I believed that one might exist, but that it wasn't necessarily as how the Bible illustrates.

The above is a bit puzzling. If one denies the Resurrection of Jesus Christ and thus life with Him in eternity, then they are not followers of Christ's Gospel. What I'm saying, you said you were Christian but you never believed the promises of Jesus Christ.

 

[Rapp]

As a Christian I was confused about life after death,then I studied the Bible.I used to believe in the Soul Sleep philosophy,aka we died fell asleep till Christs return.Some Christians believe this,thats the reason for embalming the body.After studying the Bible,I believe that when we're out of the body as the Bible teaches we're in the prescence of the Lord,Heaven.Unbelievers are cast into Eternal fire.So the only thing I can tell an unbeliever is that my belief is that they will be cast into the lake of Fire,unless accepting Jesus as Savior.Its basic Christianity,and there's no other answer.When Jesus returns for Judgement,there will be a new Heaven and a new Hell and people will be rewarded,Judged and punished as according to their Deeds

 

[redleghunter]

If the religious person knows that the person is an atheist, then the best bet might just be "I'm sorry for your loss. If you need anything, please let me know."

Kind of tough. Most atheists I know and work with believe (oops used that word) that they become worm food upon death and that's it. How depressing. It's no wonder the 'famous' atheists/deists of the Enlightenment Era died miserably some knowing there is a God but too proud to repent.

Here's a sample:

http://www.truegospel.co/articles/english/spiritual-devotion/257- death-bed- experiences

 

[Cute Tink]

Kind of tough. Most atheists I know and work with believe (oops used that word) that they become worm food upon death and that's it. How depressing. It's no wonder the 'famous' atheists/deists of the Enlightenment Era died miserably some knowing there is a God but too proud to repent.

Doesn't really matter to me that you think it's depressing. I don't believe or disbelieve something solely because it's pleasant or unpleasant.

 

[Colter]

As a Christian I was confused about life after death,then I studied the Bible.I used to believe in the Soul Sleep philosophy,aka we died fell asleep till Christs return.Some Christians believe this,thats the reason for embalming the body.After studying the Bible,I believe that when we're out of the body as the Bible teaches we're in the prescence of the Lord,Heaven.Unbelievers are cast into Eternal fire.So the only thing I can tell an unbeliever is that my belief is that they will be cast into the lake of Fire,unless accepting Jesus as Savior.Its basic Christianity,and there's no other answer.When Jesus returns for Judgement,there will be a new Heaven and a new Hell and people will be rewarded,Judged and punished as according to their Deeds

 

[Winken]

Unfortunately this cannot be falsified only because the doctrine is usually coupled with a neat example of the "True Scotsman" fallacy. If anyone does move away from Christianity, thoroughly and comprehensively, it can then be declared that they were never a "true, saved Christian" in the first place. Neat.

If I was never a true Christian then I don't think any Christian can be sure they are. I can't think of anything they might cite in evidence that didn't apply to me, thirty years ago.

2 Timothy 2:14-16

 

[redleghunter]

Rabbis actually admit to having fabricated heaven, Resurrection and afterlife rewards during trying times for religious Jews who needed hope and comfort about present suffering, Christianity adopted the rabbinical approach to justify the failures of Jesus in not changing anything material and prophetically profound as expected of a Messiah during his run on earth giving him a second chance in the second coming. Since Religion is built on faith in a higher power its only plausible that there has to be a place of residency for that power but this is mere faith proves nothing disproves nothing.

Since we ve kinda lived in Christendom influence for the past 2 millennials I guess that conditioning triggers guilt when one needs to un-apologetically admit that its a made man concept. Religion must progress beyond mere faith in favor of scientific research of its beliefs and dogmas as means and a process to qualify and prove their claims. This will advance and help humanity in the spirit intellectual honesty.

Your Messianic and consider Jesus had failures?

 

[Winken]

Agreed. Some proposed answers on certain big topics and questions are so separated that trying to take and average of them, or find a compromise between them, or fiddling around with definitions, is just nonsense.

It would take a massive amount of work, and still be unconvincing, to try to imagine a universe where both Grace and Karma were ruling factors.
Where reincarnation was and was not a reality...
Getting down to something like "This gun is loaded" "This gun is not loaded" one just starts to see where the form of words and exact concepts might to begin to matter*, but on the larger divides this does not provide enough wiggle room to bridge the gap.

*"this gun is loaded but cannot fire..."?

1 Corinthians 2:14-16

 

[Rapp]

2 Timothy 2:14-16

There you make one of the biggest errors about Christianity,We don't believe we're better people,we believe we're forgiven.I AM A SINNER,thankfully through Jesus,I'm forgiven.the Bible clearly States-For All have sinned and fall short

 

[Rapp]

There you make one of the biggest errors about Christianity,We don't believe we're better people,we believe we're forgiven.I AM A SINNER,thankfully through Jesus,I'm forgiven.the Bible clearly States-For All have sinned and fall short

I need to get the hang of this Forum,I meant to Quote the pic that said if you if you need the threat.........

 

[Winken]

There you make one of the biggest errors about Christianity,We don't believe we're better people,we believe we're forgiven.I AM A SINNER,thankfully through Jesus,I'm forgiven.the Bible clearly States-For All have sinned and fall short

That's a very Spiritual passage. It has nothing to do with being "better." It is all about being saved.

 

[redleghunter]

Doesn't really matter to me that you think it's depressing. I don't believe or disbelieve something solely because it's pleasant or unpleasant.

I don't believe I used the word "unpleasant." The fact is if we believe the atheist we become worm food upon death, that's it. Quite a philosophy based on blind faith. Blind faith because the atheist has nothing to backup this 'belief.' Whereas over 500 people witnessed the Risen Christ. That's faith based on the evidence.