Atheists/Agnostics & Death

[zippy2006]

You have a way with words, and have made me feel some sense of comfort. I'm of the opinion I'll need to feel this way, until I no longer do.

I'm glad it helped a bit. St. Thomas Aquinas says something very simple when talking about sorrow. He says that weeping lessens sorrow, or even fulfills it in a strange way. This is because the sorrowful person ought to mourn, just as the joyful person ought to rejoice (Romans 12:15). It is the right thing to do given the circumstance. It is what human beings are meant to do in such a situation. That may come across as somewhat abstract, but a good deal of humility is entailed in recognizing such a thing.

How do you deal with your own sense of mortality? Does it ever frighten you?

That's quite a question, isn't it?

It certainly frightens me, especially when death draws near and steals away someone I love. Death is a frightening thing. It even frightened God himself (Luke 22:42). But you ask how I deal with it.

Mostly badly, I suppose. The only chance one has of dealing with death in any real way would consist in hope. But it can't be any hope. It must be a hope in something stronger than death. Yet it can't be merely a hope in something stronger than death. It must be a hope that is well-grounded, trustworthy, rationally tenable. I know of only one such hope, for "In hope we were saved" (Romans 8:24). So it exists, but Christians are humans and humans tend to be weak creatures. It takes a long time to appropriate that hope, to live in it, to test it out, and to strengthen it; and that comes only through ongoing relationship with the Source of hope. Sorry, I don't mean to preach, but I won't mince words when talking about death. It's too serious a topic. I don't believe there are multiple remedies, and even the remedy we were given is not painless; it is an unwavering march into the depths of death itself. The Apostles' Creed tells us, "He suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, died, and was buried: He descended into hell..." Our Lord stormed Death's keep (Matthew 12:29) and we are called to follow in his footsteps (Matthew 16:24). We do so. ...badly.

In short, death beats me to a bloody pulp and I do my best to wait for the Lord to raise me up again. For the Christian, as for Christ, it is not that death has no say or that we are invincible. Rather, it is that death does not have the last word, and that even though we die, we shall live (John 12:24, Romans 8:34-39, 1 Corinthians 15:55).

Therefore the essentially Christian way to deal with death, it seems to me, is to paradoxically receive it, to offer oneself up in hope and trust. Any non-Christian approach--and I may be wrong about this--is either a form of medication or despair. One could medicate with drugs, sex, philosophy, apathy, distraction, or any number of things. Despair also comes in varying forms. Yet the Christian is called to be fully cognizant of the depth and horror of death--not to medicate or distract themselves from the overwhelming reality. At the same time they are not to despair, but rather to hope, to trust in the Lord. The perfect Christian (Christ) knows the sheer blackness of death better than anyone, and also possesses a conquering hope more completely than anyone else does. Most Christians and humans fail in both areas: comprehension of death and hope.

This is not just about isolated incidents involving direct confrontation with death. It is part of the age-old wisdom that the fact of death permeates our life and gives it a particular kind of quality, even when we are not thinking about it. Our attitudes towards death are also said to flood into our everyday life in so many different ways. This is why the ancient myths often depicted death as the root of dysfunction, and also why any account of salvation can never avoid the question of death. It is also why the resurrection of Christ is the absolute linchpin of Christianity, from which everything flows and without which everything falls apart.

How do you deal with it?

 

[Deidre32]

I'm glad it helped a bit. St. Thomas Aquinas says something very simple when talking about sorrow. He says that weeping lessens sorrow, or even fulfills it in a strange way. This is because the sorrowful person ought to mourn, just as the joyful person ought to rejoice (Romans 12:15). It is the right thing to do given the circumstance. It is what human beings are meant to do in such a situation. That may come across as somewhat abstract, but a good deal of humility is entailed in recognizing such a thing.



That's quite a question, isn't it?

It certainly frightens me, especially when death draws near and steals away someone I love. Death is a frightening thing. It even frightened God himself (Luke 22:42). But you ask how I deal with it.

Mostly badly, I suppose. The only chance one has of dealing with death in any real way would consist in hope. But it can't be any hope. It must be a hope in something stronger than death. Yet it can't be merely a hope in something stronger than death. It must be a hope that is well-grounded, trustworthy, rationally tenable. I know of only one such hope, for "In hope we were saved" (Romans 8:24). So it exists, but Christians are humans and humans tend to be weak creatures. It takes a long time to appropriate that hope, to live in it, to test it out, and to strengthen it; and that comes only through ongoing relationship with the Source of hope. Sorry, I don't mean to preach, but I won't mince words when talking about death. It's too serious a topic. I don't believe there are multiple remedies, and even the remedy we were given is not painless; it is an unwavering march into the depths of death itself. The Apostles' Creed tells us, "He suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, died, and was buried: He descended into hell..." Our Lord stormed Death's keep (Matthew 12:29) and we are called to follow in his footsteps (Matthew 16:24). We do so. ...badly.

In short, death beats me to a bloody pulp and I do my best to wait for the Lord to raise me up again. For the Christian, as for Christ, it is not that death has no say or that we are invincible. Rather, it is that death does not have the last word, and that even though we die, we shall live (John 12:24, Romans 8:34-39, 1 Corinthians 15:55).

Therefore the essentially Christian way to deal with death, it seems to me, is to paradoxically receive it, to offer oneself up in hope and trust. Any non-Christian approach--and I may be wrong about this--is either a form of medication or despair. One could medicate with drugs, sex, philosophy, apathy, distraction, or any number of things. Despair also comes in varying forms. Yet the Christian is called to be fully cognizant of the depth and horror of death--not to medicate or distract themselves from the overwhelming reality. At the same time they are not to despair, but rather to hope, to trust in the Lord. The perfect Christian (Christ) knows the sheer blackness of death better than anyone, and also possesses a conquering hope more completely than anyone else does. Most Christians and humans fail in both areas: comprehension of death and hope.

This is not just about isolated incidents involving direct confrontation with death. It is part of the age-old wisdom that the fact of death permeates our life and gives it a particular kind of quality, even when we are not thinking about it. Our attitudes towards death are also said to flood into our everyday life in so many different ways. This is why the ancient myths often depicted death as the root of dysfunction, and also why any account of salvation can never avoid the question of death. It is also why the resurrection of Christ is the absolute linchpin of Christianity, from which everything flows and without which everything falls apart.

How do you deal with it?

Thanks for this thoughtful reply, I too tend to view death with a hopeful outlook. I'm not sure what I hope for, since I never really believed in heaven/hell, even as a Christian. But, maybe there is something more than this life. If there isn't, that is okay too. I just no longer live this life with anticipation of a next one, because I think that idea cheapens to an extent, THIS life. If that makes sense.

 

[halfdice]

When one actually or really meets Jesus, it is a real and life-changing reality that cannot be undone. We become born again by the grace and power of God. When we go to church and do the things of church and really participate in the things of church does not make us born again. Therefore we do not have the power in ourselves to stay in the church type of life.
I can tell you that there is all kinds of after-life's that we can explore in and from this reality, but they are forbidden by God for us to go there.
We cannot use our hearts or our minds to verify if indeed we are Christians because the born again experience can be formed by our own emotions and by what we believe to be true, only because we do not have this experience in us to refer back to. It is once in our life. We can only weigh ourselves in the balance of Gods word and by a discerning spirit, the Holy Spirit that then resides in us to teach us, guide us and convict us of our sin.
I would suggest to you, Deidre, that you humble yourself, recognize your total sinfulness, of which we all have, and seek God in prayer. He will look on the humble and broken spirit that earnestly seeks Him. Then you will truly be spiritual.

 

[Loudmouth]

When one actually or really meets Jesus, it is a real and life-changing reality that cannot be undone.

Was Jesus there in flesh and blood, as in actually there?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

I've lost a friend recently who was an atheist. As he would put it, a 'dogmatic' atheist.' I consider myself to have an atheistic view, but also agnostic. I was once a Christian, a very pious one. I keep wondering about an after life, since his passing. If there is one, and if there is...what might a religious person tell an atheist in such a case?

Just thinking out loud, I guess.

Simple - A "Religious person" might tell you ALL SORTS OF FOOLISHNESS. On the Other hand a Born again Christian would plead with you to repent of your SIN, and surrender to God, and they would PRAY for you that GOd would grant you repentance and FAITH in Jjesus' perfect SIN OFFERING for you, so that you DON'T have to perish, but can have eternal life with HIM. It's TOO LATE for your friend, of course - but NOT Too late for you to turn around and live.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Simple - A "Religious person" might...

...not use enough caps.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[zippy2006]

Thanks for this thoughtful reply, I too tend to view death with a hopeful outlook. I'm not sure what I hope for, since I never really believed in heaven/hell, even as a Christian. But, maybe there is something more than this life.

Okay.

If there isn't, that is okay too. I just no longer live this life with anticipation of a next one, because I think that idea cheapens to an extent, THIS life. If that makes sense.

I don't think the idea of tomorrow cheapens today, especially when the nature of tomorrow is intimately connected with what happens today. In any case, though, my general approach is not to determine how an idea will affect me and then choose whether to believe the idea. Instead I worry more about whether the idea is true. That's why I implored you not to ignore the question.

God bless,
zip

 

[Deidre32]

Okay.



I don't think the idea of tomorrow cheapens today, especially when the nature of tomorrow is intimately connected with what happens today. In any case, though, my general approach is not to determine how an idea will affect me and then choose whether to believe the idea. Instead I worry more about whether the idea is true. That's why I implored you not to ignore the question.

God bless,
zip

lol not the idea of tomorrow. but the idea of 'where' that tomorrow may be.
why bother entertaining it?

 

[Deidre32]

Well, I've decided to begin prayer life again, and just not be pressured about it, and see where it may lead. When I left Christianity about 4 years ago, I don't think the longing for a spiritual connection ever left, but I just didn't feel connected to a religion, anymore. At the same time, with my grandmother falling ill last year, dying this year...and a fried dying recently, it's caused me to reflect on where some of my inner struggle is coming from. Sometimes, it takes tragedy to get us focused. I have been indifferent to God/Jesus/spirituality for a while and dabbled in Buddhism and even explored Islam. But, there is something that I miss about my faith...I just wanted to share with you all. We shall see where it leads

 

[Deidre32]

I'm glad it helped a bit. St. Thomas Aquinas says something very simple when talking about sorrow. He says that weeping lessens sorrow, or even fulfills it in a strange way. This is because the sorrowful person ought to mourn, just as the joyful person ought to rejoice (Romans 12:15). It is the right thing to do given the circumstance. It is what human beings are meant to do in such a situation. That may come across as somewhat abstract, but a good deal of humility is entailed in recognizing such a thing.



That's quite a question, isn't it?

It certainly frightens me, especially when death draws near and steals away someone I love. Death is a frightening thing. It even frightened God himself (Luke 22:42). But you ask how I deal with it.

Mostly badly, I suppose. The only chance one has of dealing with death in any real way would consist in hope. But it can't be any hope. It must be a hope in something stronger than death. Yet it can't be merely a hope in something stronger than death. It must be a hope that is well-grounded, trustworthy, rationally tenable. I know of only one such hope, for "In hope we were saved" (Romans 8:24). So it exists, but Christians are humans and humans tend to be weak creatures. It takes a long time to appropriate that hope, to live in it, to test it out, and to strengthen it; and that comes only through ongoing relationship with the Source of hope. Sorry, I don't mean to preach, but I won't mince words when talking about death. It's too serious a topic. I don't believe there are multiple remedies, and even the remedy we were given is not painless; it is an unwavering march into the depths of death itself. The Apostles' Creed tells us, "He suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, died, and was buried: He descended into hell..." Our Lord stormed Death's keep (Matthew 12:29) and we are called to follow in his footsteps (Matthew 16:24). We do so. ...badly.

In short, death beats me to a bloody pulp and I do my best to wait for the Lord to raise me up again. For the Christian, as for Christ, it is not that death has no say or that we are invincible. Rather, it is that death does not have the last word, and that even though we die, we shall live (John 12:24, Romans 8:34-39, 1 Corinthians 15:55).

Therefore the essentially Christian way to deal with death, it seems to me, is to paradoxically receive it, to offer oneself up in hope and trust. Any non-Christian approach--and I may be wrong about this--is either a form of medication or despair. One could medicate with drugs, sex, philosophy, apathy, distraction, or any number of things. Despair also comes in varying forms. Yet the Christian is called to be fully cognizant of the depth and horror of death--not to medicate or distract themselves from the overwhelming reality. At the same time they are not to despair, but rather to hope, to trust in the Lord. The perfect Christian (Christ) knows the sheer blackness of death better than anyone, and also possesses a conquering hope more completely than anyone else does. Most Christians and humans fail in both areas: comprehension of death and hope.

This is not just about isolated incidents involving direct confrontation with death. It is part of the age-old wisdom that the fact of death permeates our life and gives it a particular kind of quality, even when we are not thinking about it. Our attitudes towards death are also said to flood into our everyday life in so many different ways. This is why the ancient myths often depicted death as the root of dysfunction, and also why any account of salvation can never avoid the question of death. It is also why the resurrection of Christ is the absolute linchpin of Christianity, from which everything flows and without which everything falls apart.

How do you deal with it?

I really digested your words tonight, thank you for taking the time to post this, Zippy

May I ask...do you feel that you are 'saved?'

 

[zippy2006]

lol not the idea of tomorrow. but the idea of 'where' that tomorrow may be.
why bother entertaining it?

Just to be sure I've got it right, are you saying that you don't see any reason for entertaining a belief in an afterlife of a particular sort? That the sheer idea of an afterlife is okay with you but you are uncertain about what exact shape it will take?

I suppose I bother entertaining certain particular about the afterlife for the same reason I bother entertaining anything else: I believe it is true. In this case because of what God has revealed to us.

Well, I've decided to begin prayer life again, and just not be pressured about it, and see where it may lead. When I left Christianity about 4 years ago, I don't think the longing for a spiritual connection ever left, but I just didn't feel connected to a religion, anymore. At the same time, with my grandmother falling ill last year, dying this year...and a fried dying recently, it's caused me to reflect on where some of my inner struggle is coming from. Sometimes, it takes tragedy to get us focused. I have been indifferent to God/Jesus/spirituality for a while and dabbled in Buddhism and even explored Islam. But, there is something that I miss about my faith...I just wanted to share with you all. We shall see where it leads

How wonderful! Did you know that I also fell away from Christianity? And I also dabbled in Buddhism (and read a fair bit about Hinduism, atheism, and the mysticism vein of Islam?). Tragedy refocused me as well. It made me take religion very much more seriously. It made me look at it square in the eye instead of simply dismissing or ignoring it. You will be in my prayers.

Might I recommend an author I very much enjoy, and who I think would be beneficial? His name is Simon Tugwell. He has written a number of books, but for you I would recommend his two-part books on prayer: Prayer: Living With God, and Prayer in Practice, in that order. Your very first sentence, "...and not be pressured about it, and see where it may lead," reminds me strongly of Tugwell. You could probably find him at the library.

I really digested your words tonight, thank you for taking the time to post this, Zippy

You're certainly welcome. It's a topic that deserves much attention--more than I have given it.

May I ask...do you feel that you are 'saved?'

Well, yes and no. Catholics don't view it quite the same way as Protestants do. It's more of a journey for us than a black or white state. God has redeemed me in Christ and He is saving me. I am in the slow process of being saved. I also have great hope and strong reason to believe that God will bring me to Him and bring my salvation to fulfillment (Philippians 1:6, Philippians 2:12).

God bless,
zip

 

[Oafman]

what might a religious person tell an atheist in such a case?

Well, today I read the Pope's recent foray into this subject:

Pope Francis assures atheists: You don't have to believe in God to go to heaven

Pascal's wager just got destroyed. Again.

 

[seekingsolace]

Well, today I read the Pope's recent foray into this subject:

Pope Francis assures atheists: You don't have to believe in God to go to heaven

Pascal's wager just got destroyed. Again.

http://www.catholicvote.org/what-pope-francis-really-said-about-atheists/

 

[Oafman]

http://www.catholicvote.org/what-pope-francis-really-said-about-atheists/

Phew! I bet for a second there, you thought you were going to be made to share your special prize.

 

[seekingsolace]

Phew! I bet for a second there, you thought you were going to be made to share your special prize.

Saddening that you think I wouldn't want you to be saved.

 

[Deidre32]

Well, guess what. I'm a believer again. Off and on I've gone with my faith, and struggled ...and I'm done struggling. This time, it feels different. Leaving Christianity for a while, and coming back to belief...it feels like a true gift, it's hard to explain. But, no one knows for sure who is 'saved' or who is not.

Thank you for all who replied in this thread.

 

[Belk]

Well, guess what. I'm a believer again. Off and on I've gone with my faith, and struggled ...and I'm done struggling. This time, it feels different. Leaving Christianity for a while, and coming back to belief...it feels like a true gift, it's hard to explain. But, no one knows for sure who is 'saved' or who is not.

Thank you for all who replied in this thread.

Best of luck.

 

[Deidre32]

Best of luck.

TY!
Did you ever follow a particular faith?

 

[Belk]

TY!
Did you ever follow a particular faith?

I was nominally Christian when I was a kid but I went through a de-conversion in my early teens.

 

[Cute Tink]

Well, guess what. I'm a believer again. Off and on I've gone with my faith, and struggled ...and I'm done struggling. This time, it feels different. Leaving Christianity for a while, and coming back to belief...it feels like a true gift, it's hard to explain. But, no one knows for sure who is 'saved' or who is not.

Thank you for all who replied in this thread.

Congrats. I hope your newly regained faith brings with it some spiritual peace.