Atheist Universe: Not Impossible

[b&wpac4]

Removing post.

 

[david_x]

He fought against it for years.
Up to the moment of his conversion is an apt way to describe such a thing, if I understand the power of the Spirit of God. Certainly the Spirit led people (like Tolkien) into his life, but until the moment of Lewis's conversion, the Spirit was not in his life because Lewis as an atheist rejected God. It wasn't until that moment of rebirth that the full power of the Spirit of God quelled his resistance. I had a similar experience when I was born again. I had varied interactions with God throughout my life, people who tried to teach me about Jesus, and the Spirit must have been watching over me the whole time, but I wouldn't say the Spirit was in my life the first twenty-one years, else I would never have done a lot of the things I did.

God chose and lead everyone of his followers to himself. C.S.Lewis isn't really the type of conversion I was describing anyways. I was describing the people that set out find the weaknesses in the Bible, but instead became Christians. (Can't remember if that was Graham or some famous Christian came about it this way.)

More to point, it is not fair to say that only Christians 'understand' the Bible. It is more fair to say that they can not appreciate it's finner details, etc.

 

[JediMobius]

God chose and lead everyone of his followers to himself. C.S.Lewis isn't really the type of conversion I was describing anyways. I was describing the people that set out find the weaknesses in the Bible, but instead became Christians. (Can't remember if that was Graham or some famous Christian came about it this way.)

Do you think that was because of the bible, and these men's understanding of it, or was it because of divine intervention? I wasn't really aware of such cases though. Reminds me of the story of the chalk in the college classroom.

More to point, it is not fair to say that only Christians 'understand' the Bible. It is more fair to say that they can not appreciate it's finner details, etc.

I see your point, now if only I can make my earlier point accordingly.



Sorry everyone for expressing my point unfairly, I sincerely never meant to bring anyone's intelligence into question.

 

[david_x]

History pretty much disagrees with you, but that's fine.

rofl, whatever.

click

 

[b&wpac4]

Upon reflection, I realize I'm being a bit extra abrasive lately so I apologize for that and I hope you all can forgive me. I am going to edit the posts.

 

[allhart]

I agree with you. While it is possible that our minds could be a separate "thing" from our bodies, there's no evidence that suggests that, at this time.

Allhart talks about four fundamental origins but I have no idea what he's talking about, to be honest. Maybe he'll shed some more light on this, as it seems he's asserting that there is some evidence for mind/body duality.

Matter can't explain itself.....Quantity can't explain itself! Just like a dead body can't explain itself, Life takes intelligence! Reason cannot, by itself, explain why there is reason. Science cannot, by itself explain science. Man's discovery and application of science are products of reason. We can explain the existence of matter,universe, nature, life, consciousness, humans and the laws of physics, but we can't explain why! Science is a critical aspect of human existence, but it cannot address the spiritual nature of man! All things that are important to us in many aspects to our lives are unseen! Reason itself informs man of its own limitations and in doing so, directs him to discovery of a force greater than himself.....supernatural force responsible for the origins of not only human existence but all existence. For most, the supernatural reveals itself in the Creator....God.

Man is more than a creature! Oh and by the way in laws of nature for most try to explain them, in by saying, mother nature! Which is a supernatural force!
Duality: First off atheists can't explain the origin of space, time and matter! You first have to assume space, time and matter was even there first, before you can explain, (cause and effect), however; looking at your assumptions and using the four fundamentals to explain cause and effect. Which is (origin, meaning, morality and destiny). Trying to understand God, He has to be outside what He created! He is in-material, timeless and space-less. Which makes Him supernatural, power, free-will, and can initiate instantaneously!
And man was created in the image of Almighty God!
Also previously I asked that you would explain to me the reality of evil, because if you differentiate between good and evil you deposit a moral law then in doing so, you have to deposit a moral law giver. Which is whom you are trying to disprove! Yes?

Here is another thought (borrower and possessor).... law. You borrowed life from your parents and them, from theirs and so on, now someone had to possess life to start the cause and effect giving life to the borrower! Begging the question of origin again!

 

[allhart]

God chose and lead everyone of his followers to himself. C.S.Lewis isn't really the type of conversion I was describing anyways. I was describing the people that set out find the weaknesses in the Bible, but instead became Christians. (Can't remember if that was Graham or some famous Christian came about it this way.)

More to point, it is not fair to say that only Christians 'understand' the Bible. It is more fair to say that they can not appreciate it's finner details, etc.

Lee strobel, an atheist, was also a renown journalist, set out to disprove to his converted wife that Christianity was bogus and after 2 yrs of research gave his life to Jesus Christ!

 

[david_x]

Lee strobel, an atheist, was also a renown journalist, set out to disprove to his converted wife that Christianity was bogus and after 2 yrs of research gave his life to Jesus Christ!

Thx.

 

[JediMobius]

Matter can't explain itself.....Quantity can't explain itself! Just like a dead body can't explain itself, Life takes intelligence! Reason cannot, by itself, explain why there is reason. Science cannot, by itself explain science. Man's discovery and application of science are products of reason. We can explain the existence of matter,universe, nature, life, consciousness, humans and the laws of physics, but we can't explain why! Science is a critical aspect of human existence, but it cannot address the spiritual nature of man! All things that are important to us in many aspects to our lives are unseen! Reason itself informs man of its own limitations and in doing so, directs him to discovery of a force greater than himself.....supernatural force responsible for the origins of not only human existence but all existence. For most, the supernatural reveals itself in the Creator....God.

I agree with all of this except one thing. I don't believe man is naturally spiritual.

Man is more than a creature! Oh and by the way in laws of nature for most try to explain them, in by saying, mother nature! Which is a supernatural force!

I find it remarkable that many scientific theories i read up on are expressed in terms of design without acknowledging a designer; using words such as 'guided' when talking about RNA's role in abiogenesis, for example.

Duality: First off atheists can't explain the origin of space, time and matter! You first have to assume space, time and matter was even there first, before you can explain, (cause and effect), however; looking at your assumptions and using the four fundamentals to explain cause and effect. Which is (origin, meaning, morality and destiny). Trying to understand God, He has to be outside what He created! He is in-material, timeless and space-less. Which makes Him supernatural, power, free-will, and can initiate instantaneously!

I've never come across the four fundamentals either. Would you do the honors on starting/linking a thread about the four fundamentals for us?

Here is another thought (borrower and possessor).... law. You borrowed life from your parents and them, from theirs and so on, now someone had to possess life to start the cause and effect giving life to the borrower! Begging the question of origin again!

I feel like this is waxing Aquinas, particularly his argument from the reality of cause.

 

[tanzanos]

Nothing begets nothing. Since the universe started out as nothing, the Big Bang could not have been a natural result, unless the Big Bang, or the universe itself, is in fact omnipotent, self-aware, and able to exert its will.

Just as you claim that without faith one cannot understand the Bible so I say to you that without a knowledge of astrophysics; you cannot understand the theory of the big bang. Science is not faith based. It demands that strict laws and guidelines be followed in order to offer something as proof.

If nothing begets nothing then what did God use to create the universe? Obviously there was Nothing before he created everything. So you see the inherent hypocricy found in creation myths.

By the way in science we know that energy cannot be created nor destroyed. quantum physics shows that basically everything in existence is energy in various forms. Unless you consider energy nothing then you have to come up with a better definition of "nothing"

It really matters not to me that you believe we atheists are without soul and feelings. Don't forget that most atheists started out as theists. Your vanity and arrogance knows no bounds.

Stick to your bible and let the rest of the world tackle problems like hunger, poverty, national health for all, etc.

Now have a nice day

 

[allhart]

I agree with all of this except one thing. I don't believe man is naturally spiritual.



I find it remarkable that many scientific theories i read up on are expressed in terms of design without acknowledging a designer; using words such as 'guided' when talking about RNA's role in abiogenesis, for example.



I've never come across the four fundamentals either. Would you do the honors on starting/linking a thread about the four fundamentals for us?



I feel like this is waxing Aquinas, particularly his argument from the reality of cause.

(spiritual nature of man) Spirit and soul are quite different, no?, but alike, yes? There is an essence that is apart from the body, however; you want to differentiate the material matter of one self or consciousness being of one self!

(reality of cause) Basically can't you build variables of truth from scenarios that build upon the reality we can understand about origin/God, but one scenario doesn't make it a complete pictorial!

O.K. here is a complex image of God. Us trying to understand and explain God..... Ocean: If you would go to the ocean and 5 miles before you see it. you smell the the salt in the air and may even feel the mist upon your face that is, to resemble the Holy Spirit. Now, you walk up to the shore and you see the waves coming in and crashing down on the shore, this is to resemble Jesus Christ and stepping back looking at the whole thing is to emulate God!

Do see or understand my thoughts?

 

[brinny]

... And to me, it seems, very probable.

BEFORE YOU READ:

I realize that this theory / hypothesis / concept / whatever is not going to be the end-all creationism vs. atheism debate. This is just an idea I found interesting and wanted to see what everybody here thought about it.

ON TO THE SUBJECT:

I just had this sort of thought bouncing around in my head, and I think I had an epiphany. That or my brain exploded. Okay, consider this:

Before the universe existed, there were no laws. Of anything. No physics, no logic, no nothing.

If such a blank nothingness existed without laws, literally anything could happen.

In the infinite amount of time that the nothingness existed, it is infinitely probable for anything and everything to be created. Since there is an infinite amount of time and no binding guidelines, literally every possibility must be fulfilled.

This includes the spontaneous creation of our universe.

----------------------


Put that in your pipe and smoke it, creationists.

could that not be a definition of insanity?...i don't mean your last sentence, just the ones above it under ON TO THE SUBJECT.

 

[HannahBanana]

could that not be a definition of insanity?...i don't mean your last sentence, just the ones above it under ON TO THE SUBJECT.

What exactly is insane about any of that? Even if it is insane, couldn't you say that the idea of an omnipotent god creating everything with a snap of his fingers is insane, too?

 

[allhart]

What exactly is insane about any of that? Even if it is insane, couldn't you say that the idea of an omnipotent god creating everything with a snap of his fingers is insane, too?

Explain the reality of evil? Then maybe we can see to understand whom or what is insane......

 

[HannahBanana]

Explain the reality of evil? Then maybe we can see to understand whom or what is insane......

Evil is subjective. Some people think that abortion is evil, while others don't think it's evil. Neither party is right, since there is no absolute definition of evil, and since what is and is not evil is based on opinions.

 

[allhart]

Evil is subjective. Some people think that abortion is evil, while others don't think it's evil. Neither party is right, since there is no absolute definition of evil, and since what is and is not evil is based on opinions.

Reality of Evil??????? The idea of it! So you are trying out relativism? No absolute truths? If you claim relativism isn't that an absolute. Which makes you contradictory?

 

[HannahBanana]

Reality of Evil??????? The idea of it! So you are trying out relativism? No absolute truths? If you claim relativism isn't that an absolute. Which makes you contradictory?

I'm not "trying out" anything. I am a relativist. What makes you think I'm just trying it out?

And no, by claiming relativism, that isn't an absolute, since I realize that not everyone believes in moral relativism, and that not everyone has to believe in moral relativism.

 

[allhart]

I'm not "trying out" anything. I am a relativist. What makes you think I'm just trying it out?

And no, by claiming relativism, that isn't an absolute, since I realize that not everyone believes in moral relativism, and that not everyone has to believe in moral relativism.

You are chasing your tail with that talk! relativism is basically pluralism, anything goes! Blurring the lines of right and wrong, good and evil, just and unjust and end and means......, but you can't be moderately dead now can you? And you have to take an absolute position to claim anything as relative to your opinion! If you tell me there's no truth then what am I suppose to believe? Do you believe your right? Come on now contradict yourself! Who is to say? no one gets to say? You mean know one gets to know. Well the person with the best reasons gets to know! All knowledge is socially discussed! Can you know you don't exist? You think for there I am! You might want to study contradiction's my friend!

Authority: Do you know the earth isn't flat, that the sun is in the middle of the universe, that water boils at 212 degrees, have you seen all that personally or is that your opinion to and by who's authority do you acknowledge fact from fiction? You also can't say you can fly and jump off the tallest building around and not meet your death, for gravity, is a reality!
The material world exists.
Universe is designed!
Humans are different than animals and we are unique!
Moral objectivism!

 

[HannahBanana]

You are chasing your tail with that talk! relativism is basically pluralism, anything goes! Blurring the lines of right and wrong, good and evil, just and unjust and end and means......, but you can't be moderately dead now can you? And you have to take an absolute position to claim anything as relative to your opinion! If you tell me there's no truth then what am I suppose to believe? Do you believe your right? Come on now contradict yourself! Who is to say? no one gets to say? You mean know one gets to know. Well the person with the best reasons gets to know!

Authority: Do you know the earth isn't flat, that the sun is in the middle of the universe, that water boils at 212 degrees, have you seen all that personally or is that your opinion to and by who's authority do you acknowledge fact from fiction? You also can't say you can fly and jump off the tallest building around and not meet your death, for gravity, is a reality!
The material world exists.
Universe is designed!
Humans are different than animals and we are unique!
Moral objectivism!

The fact that you seem to think that moral relativism is the same thing as denying scientific facts (such as gravity and the boiling point of water) just goes to show how little you actually know about moral relativism. Read up on it and then talk to me:

Moral relativism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[jrdbrbr]

"In the infinite amount of time that the nothingness existed..."

This initial statement contradicts itself. If there was truly NOTHING, then there wouldn't be time. Also, time and space must alway go together. When God created the earth, there must be a WHERE did he create it and WHEN did he create it. The two are inseparable.