Atheist morals

[sugarpux]

I overheard a coworker of mine say something that I've read in many theistic articles. I think it's a very misleading and ignorant opinion. I don't want to confront him about it, because he's a cool guy and I don't want to make things awkward.
What he said was that atheists don't have morals because they have no foundation for said morals. This argument gets nuttier as it goes on, but I'll just stick to the basic premise.
I suppose it's relevant to say I'm an atheist. Just like a christian, I don't think It's a good thing to kill someone. Or cheat, or steal, or just generally be a dick. I have compassion for my fellow man, just like you. I want to help people, just like you do. The only difference is, I don't need a 2000 year old book to come to this conclusion.
Yet, christians do. Really? Actually, I don't think they do either. If you were to really follow the bible honestly, you would be ok with slavery, selling your daughter, and stoning people for working on sunday. Of course your not ok with that, that would be horrible! So what do you do? Comprimise. Cherry pick. You have to use your own brain to cherrypick from the bible. You have to use your own thoughts, opinions, and, say it with me........MORALS. When it comes to morals, christians and atheists are practically neck and neck.
It's when the ambiguous morals come in that things get weird. Like homosexuals. Really? Wouldn't you think denying someone's human right to choose who they want to be with immoral? That would take a lack of compassion to pull off. Wouldn't telling a child they're going to burn forever if they don't pray the right prayer, even though absoloutely no proof of said fire exists, be immoral?
All I'm saying, is that the very basic message of most religions, including christianity, is "don't be a dick".
Thats how I try to live my life, and the same can be said for most christians. It's the ones in power that scare me, and it's the ones not in power that put them there.

 

[MaxP]

The point with the base thing is that Christians attribute good things to glorifying God, and thus always good, and bad things turning away from God, sin. And every person being deserving because of God's creation, and their inherent dignity.
Point of Christianity is you can't be a jerk.

 

[keith99]

Being a man of wealth and taste I'll point out the converse. It is those who have a God who they think will punish them if they do not do as their God says who do not have morals. They just have the fear of punishment or promise of reward.

Of course this is a bit unfair. As I see it both the better people of faith and the better athiests have true morals and do what is right because they think it right. And when the fail to do right feel bad about it, even if no one else knows of their failure.

 

[MaxP]

Being a man of wealth and taste I'll point out the converse. It is those who have a God who they think will punish them if they do not do as their God says who do not have morals. They just have the fear of punishment or promise of reward.

Of course this is a bit unfair. As I see it both the better people of faith and the better athiests have true morals and do what is right because they think it right. And when the fail to do right feel bad about it, even if no one else knows of their failure.

Yeah, the first mentioned is imperfect form, as Christians teach. We're supposed to do things out of love, but I think what the guy meant was why do atheists love people.

 

[lisah]

May I ask if you were raised amongst atheists, or did you deconvert to atheist? (I hope I worded that okay.)

I'm just interested to see what religious influences there were in your life.

Oh...I definately am not suggesting that morals are dependant on religions either. I'm just curious. No offense intended.

I think that it is the environment that begins the basis of morals, which is then built and expanded upon through life experiences.

 

[Tinker Grey]

I agree with keith99.

In addition to what has been said, if you want to advance the conversation you might say, "Perhaps you mean that atheists have no basis for morals rather than that they are immoral."

If he agrees, then the conversation advances to question of a source for morals which could be stimulating. If he disagrees (that is, sticks by the statement that atheists are in fact immoral), then you could challenge him on that point. E.g., Do you think I'm immoral and if so, what evidence would you present? If he doesn' think you're immoral, "Did you
know I was an atheist".

Of course if you are kind of person who likes the sort of good-time that most Christians find immoral, you might not want to bring yourself into it.

Etc.

 

[sugarpux]

I think that it is the environment that begins the basis of morals, which is then built and expanded upon through life experiences.

Right. Thats my point. Morals have less to do with religion than with environment. god is virtually meaningless.

And I wasn't brought up one way or the other. I like to think I started thinking about it with a clean slate. My mom is christian and I went to church a couple times when I was too young to understand it. Other than that, nothing was really said about it. I was free to figure it out on my own. And when I did, I was dumbfounded. Religions breed the craziest logic I've ever seen. It's confusing and funny and dreadful all at the same time. Just like human nature. Hmmmm...

 

[quatona]

If it helps any, I could call myself a theist and claim my opinions to be of divine origin, just like theists do. That would solve the problem at hand.

 

[ranmaonehalf]

The point with the base thing is that Christians attribute good things to glorifying God, and thus always good, and bad things turning away from God, sin. And every person being deserving because of God's creation, and their inherent dignity.
Point of Christianity is you can't be a jerk.

of course not being a jerk still allows you to stone disobedient children, own slaves etc...

 

[Garyzenuf]

Christians and Atheists by and large possess the same morals. Christians believe theirs come from God, and Atheists don't. Thats the only difference I've detected between the two.




(Pssst...but don't tell them that, or they'll get all huffy and start fighting).

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[ranmaonehalf]

Of course you could bring up the discussion of morality and leave his particular god out of it.
Bring up whether other nonchristians can be moral.
if they can then its clear that morality need not come from god.
next bring up something is moral cause god says so or if god just happens to say what is moral. if thats the case then its possible to choose what is moral. if not then moral is gods whim.

 

[TheBear]

of course not being a jerk still allows you to stone disobedient children, own slaves etc...

...treat women like chattel, corporal punishment....

 

[keith99]

Christians and Atheists by and large possess the same morals. Christians believe theirs come from God, and Atheists don't. Thats the only difference I've detected between the two.




(Pssst...but don't tell them that, or they'll get all huffy and start fighting).

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I'd have to add one more. On balance athiests are more willing to ask why do I think this act is moral or not. Athiests then (again on balance) are more able to deal with unexpected and unexplored ethical questions.

 

[billwald]

The basis for morals is the (generally unwritten) social contract of the community.

 

[MaxP]

Of course you could bring up the discussion of morality and leave his particular god out of it.
Bring up whether other nonchristians can be moral.
if they can then its clear that morality need not come from god.
next bring up something is moral cause god says so or if god just happens to say what is moral. if thats the case then its possible to choose what is moral. if not then moral is gods whim.

Argument is flawed because Christian belief states moral code is written on our souls by God.

 

[Tinker Grey]

Yeah, but the OP's antagonist doesn't think so.

I think this thread is more about responding to that situation rather than Christendom in general.

 

[tcampen]

Argument is flawed because Christian belief states moral code is written on our souls by God.

But that isn't true. Sociopaths do not have a built in conscience (or this "moral code written on their soul "- they're born without it. Many can learn to live by societal conventions, but they learn how to do this, rather than relying on that innate sense of right and wrong most of us have. So if god writes a moral code on our souls, why would god choose to not do so for some people?

If this innate sense is biological in nature, it would seem to make sense some people would be born with this cognitive defect.

The fact also remains that Chrsitians as a whole are no more moral in any measurable way then the rest of humanity.

So the real question is can one understand right and wrong using reason, rather than just "God said so." It is impossible for the Christian to understand on a cognitive level why murder, rape, and theft is wrong without the bible? Billions of other do, so I'm confident the Christian can too, if they're willing to try.

 

[dewaddict84]

The basis for morals is the (generally unwritten) social contract of the community.

WORD!

We get our morals the same place you do: Society. Our friends, family, and all interactions with society on the whole. And this social contract has changed over time. Christians have the belief that god up there has drawn a line in the sand a long time ago and has a fundamental and absolute gauge for right and wrong, but I'd have a hard time believing that they know where that line is.

Isn't eating shrimp supposed to be an abomination?

 

[Freodin]

Argument is flawed because Christian belief states moral code is written on our souls by God.

It states that... but tries to wiggle out of that statement as soon as some contradiction shows up.

Consider the problem:

Moral code X is "written on your soul". That would mean that your morals, and thus your moral decisions and actions should be consistent.

But they are not. People agree on a lot of general "morals", but disagree on a lot of others.

So what is it with the morals that people disagree on? Are they not "written on your soul"?

Christians usually either answer that negatively - "no, this is your fallen human nature telling you things contrary to God´s morals" - or blame the disagreeing part - "your conscience tells you that you are wrong, but you choose to ignore it".


That means that either these "soul-written morals" can be ignored... which would lead to the question how Christians know that it is not their disagreeing morals that are wrong.

 

[Garyzenuf]

We get our morals the same place you do: Society. Our friends, family, and all interactions with society on the whole. And this social contract has changed over time.

It seems we start out as pretty blank slates alright, maybe with a dash of evolutionary alturism thrown in for good measure. (Not sure if alturism is something passed on geneticly, or if it's a cultural thing).

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