Atheism

[Jane_the_Bane]

To be expected huh! Evolution is a long process, it is not an overnight thing.

And again, I'd counsel you against pontificating on a topic that you so clearly know extremely little about.

I could give you a crash course here, but that'd derail the thread.

 

[CherubRam]

I always have to wonder why converts (or deconverts) are toted as some sort of promotional material for a specific world view.

I mean, what are you trying to advertise here? "These people have changed their mind, so you should, too"?

Scientology really likes that approach, pointing to a gazillion of celebrities they've swayed to their cause.

The thing is: people are converting or deconverting all the time. You'll find atheists who have become pious muslims and vice versa. Christians becoming Wiccans and vice versa. For every world view, there are people converting and deconverting.
It is not all that spectacular or convincing.

Your statements do not address the point I made.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Your statements do not address the point I made.

Unsurprisingly, as the post you quoted here was not written in reply to one of your contributions, but to GxG's videos.

 

[CherubRam]

Unsurprisingly, as the post you quoted here was not written in reply to one of your contributions, but to GxG's videos.

It is not unusual for other posters to jump in on a conversation.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

It is not unusual for other posters to jump in on a conversation.

Exactly. Your point being?

 

[oi_antz]

If Christianity is really the best religion, then why haven't all the Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists noticed this superiority and decided to join the winning team?

This implies that religion is chosen based on it's perceived value. This is not how Christianity works, though it is a reason that some people choose to call themselves Christian and follow a given leader. The true act of becoming Christian is to be born in the spirit of God. This means that we are accepting a spiritual life that God is providing. For whatever reason, some people do not wish to receive it.

 

[LoAmmi]

This implies that religion is chosen based on it's perceived value. This is not how Christianity works, though it is a reason that some people choose to call themselves Christian and follow a given leader. The true act of becoming Christian is to be born in the spirit of God. This means that we are accepting a spiritual life that God is providing. For whatever reason, some people do not wish to receive it.

It's circular. The only way to be "born in the spirit" is to become a Christian and one cannot become a Christian until they are "born of the spirit". Despite this born of the spirit stuff, I have never noticed a true difference between Christians and, say, Jews. Am I born of the spirit if I am functionally the same as Christians? I accept the spiritual life that Jews have embraced since before Christianity existed.

 

[cloudyday2]

I always have to wonder why converts (or deconverts) are toted as some sort of promotional material for a specific world view.

I mean, what are you trying to advertise here? "These people have changed their mind, so you should, too"?

Scientology really likes that approach, pointing to a gazillion of celebrities they've swayed to their cause.

The thing is: people are converting or deconverting all the time. You'll find atheists who have become pious muslims and vice versa. Christians becoming Wiccans and vice versa. For every world view, there are people converting and deconverting.
It is not all that spectacular or convincing.

The interesting thing about converts is that they have a reason or reasons. Like I can honestly say that I probably would have no interest in Christianity if I had not been born into it. I read about people who successfully exit Christianity only to enter another bizarre religion (out of the frying pan and into the fire). What motivates these people?

According to the video, Holly Ordway was an atheist but became interested in Christianity through reading classical literature written by Christians. She also referred obliquely to some sort of supernatural experience that convinced her of God's existence.

When I was still a Christian in college I often argued with a friend about atheism. Later that friend became a Christian after falling in love with a girl who was a Christian. Another of my atheist friends became a Christian after his brother and sister became Christian.

People seem to exit Christianity for different reasons.
- Sometimes while educating themselves to be better apologists they discover problems in the history and theology.
- Sometimes they disagree with moral rules such as sexuality.
- Sometimes they can't accept the idea that other religions are in error.

Theology is only a tiny factor in the reason for conversions IMO.

 

[oi_antz]

It's circular. The only way to be "born in the spirit" is to become a Christian and one cannot become a Christian until they are "born of the spirit". Despite this born of the spirit stuff, I have never noticed a true difference between Christians and, say, Jews. Am I born of the spirit if I am functionally the same as Christians? I accept the spiritual life that Jews have embraced since before Christianity existed.

I would say it is possible LoAmmi, but I would also say I am not in a position to make that judgement. Jesus said this to Nicodemus:

The wind blows wherever it wants. Just as you can hear the wind but can’t tell where it comes from or where it is going, so you can’t explain how people are born of the Spirit.”

So I would not assume that you are not born of the Christian spirit simply because there are Christian beliefs that you do not accept. Faith is an alignment of the heart toward God, and beliefs are originally the result of that faith, but often religion teaches us to achieve faith through our beliefs.

 

[LoAmmi]

I would say it is possible LoAmmi, but I would also say I am not in a position to make that judgement. Jesus said this to Nicodemus:

The wind blows wherever it wants. Just as you can hear the wind but can’t tell where it comes from or where it is going, so you can’t explain how people are born of the Spirit.”

So I would not assume that you are not born of the Christian spirit simply because there are Christian beliefs that you do not accept. Faith is an alignment of the heart toward God, and beliefs are originally the result of that faith, but often religion teaches us to achieve faith through our beliefs.

That's a fair answer. I always get annoyed with people who tell me I'm wrong when I do the best I can with the information that's presented to me. I haven't found anything compelling in the Christian faith that has made me desire to change. Christians who tell me I'm going to Hell for this paint G-d as an evil tyrant who punishes people for sincerely not believing something that cannot be proven.

 

[oi_antz]

That's a fair answer. I always get annoyed with people who tell me I'm wrong when I do the best I can with the information that's presented to me. I haven't found anything compelling in the Christian faith that has made me desire to change. Christians who tell me I'm going to Hell for this paint G-d as an evil tyrant who punishes people for sincerely not believing something that cannot be proven.

I was implying that actually. None of us have the ability to condemn someone to hell, and to claim that right is only conceited.

 

[bhsmte]

Evolution is possible, but not in this universe. According to scripture God came into being of His own accord. In the fossil record it shows that while one group of species suddenly died out, another group suddenly sprang into being. If evolution is a matter of fact, then that can not be possible.

If you are one that can absorb objective evidence and verifiable facts, evolution is much more than just possible.

On the other hand, in regards to that same level of scrutiny, scripture doesn't hold up all to well.

 

[smaneck]

I was implying that actually. None of us have the ability to condemn someone to hell, and to claim that right is only conceited.

Unfortunately some Christians claim to know God's intention in this regards, even TG who most of us find admirable in other regards.

 

[bhsmte]

I was implying that actually. None of us have the ability to condemn someone to hell, and to claim that right is only conceited.

I agree, but many Christians must have missed the memo on this one. So many, will tell you what God does, why he does it and are also quick to judge others.

I fully understand the motivation behind this type of behavior, but it is still real behavior displayed by a lot of Christians.

 

[gord44]

Many Christians miss the boat on the love you enemies aspect of Christianity. Although most people in other religions that have similar doctrine do as well.

The militancy towards atheism by Christians is anti-Christian. I know the mindset of many Christians is hoping for a 'told you so' moment when the great dread judgement comes, but a proper mindset would be sorrow for the lost and pure joy when an atheist comes back to his Father. I can only imagine many Christians would have a smug attitude towards a converted Richard Dawkins, while in truth it should be a great celebration like the prodigal son.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Well, exclusivist world views will always remain exclusivist, even if they give themselves a veneer of tolerance. This is why so many of them are also so avidly (or even aggressively) proselytizing: if you believe that there is but One Truth, there can be no genuine tolerance for (let alone acceptance of) other world views, because they are all falsehoods by default.
The need to eliminate them becomes even greater when being in the wrong is supposed to carry greater penalties than just having the wrong idea about some things: if not partaking of your One Truth results in damnation and suffering, each other religion, world view or culture becomes a direct threat to the well-being of those who embrace them, and you might feel morally compelled to "free" them.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

You can detect this kind of attitude in anti-theists (or perhaps better: anti-religionists) like Dawkins as well: he honestly believes that fundamentalism and rank superstition represent religion in its purest form, and that less problematic forms of spirituality and sacral tradition are just watered-down versions of the same, hiding their abject ugliness under the surface. With that starting point, how could you NOT campaign against the very concept of religion? The concept he battles is the embodiment of cultivated ignorance, reactionary and random morals, and authoritarian belief in the pronouncement of some people who lived in a mostly barbarian past.

 

[bhsmte]

Many Christians miss the boat on the love you enemies aspect of Christianity. Although most people in other religions that have similar doctrine do as well.

The militancy towards atheism by Christians is anti-Christian. I know the mindset of many Christians is hoping for a 'told you so' moment when the great dread judgement comes, but a proper mindset would be sorrow for the lost and pure joy when an atheist comes back to his Father. I can only imagine many Christians would have a smug attitude towards a converted Richard Dawkins, while in truth it should be a great celebration like the prodigal son.

Likely because, loving your enemies is a near impossibility to do from a normal human psychological standpoint and is not realistic.

The word enemy is also a bit much, but there are people we will come across we don't care much for in life and simply will not love. Can we tolerate and get along with them in a social way? Sure, and we do that all the time.

 

[oi_antz]

I agree, but many Christians must have missed the memo on this one. So many, will tell you what God does, why he does it and are also quick to judge others.

I fully understand the motivation behind this type of behavior, but it is still real behavior displayed by a lot of Christians.

Is it bad Christian behaviour, or bad behaviour by Christians?

Well, exclusivist world views will always remain exclusivist, even if they give themselves a veneer of tolerance. This is why so many of them are also so avidly (or even aggressively) proselytizing: if you believe that there is but One Truth, there can be no genuine tolerance for (let alone acceptance of) other world views, because they are all falsehoods by default.

Seems like a theory to try and promote peace. The problem you are solving by doing this, is created by those who want to believe things that aren't true.

The need to eliminate them becomes even greater when being in the wrong is supposed to carry greater penalties than just having the wrong idea about some things: if not partaking of your One Truth results in damnation and suffering, each other religion, world view or culture becomes a direct threat to the well-being of those who embrace them, and you might feel morally compelled to "free" them.

As far as Christianity goes, Jesus said "if the son will free you, then you will indeed be free". How then can a Christian presume to be able to free someone? I think this is proof of a problem that is caused by someone believing something that is not true.

The word enemy is also a bit much, but there are people we will come across we don't care much for in life and simply will not love.

These people are not your enemies, you are their enemy because you hate them! An enemy is someone who is against you. It doesn't mean you have to be against them.

 

[LoAmmi]

Likely because, loving your enemies is a near impossibility to do from a normal human psychological standpoint and is not realistic.

The word enemy is also a bit much, but there are people we will come across we don't care much for in life and simply will not love. Can we tolerate and get along with them in a social way? Sure, and we do that all the time.

The Torah says that if I come across an enemy's donkey, I am supposed to return it to them. From this we take that if we find someone's property, we are to return it to them even if they are a person we don't like. As you say, though, the word enemy is important. Does this cover someone actively trying to kill me? I would say not.

Of course, we're not commanded to either love or hate our enemies specifically.