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Gxg (G²)

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On Militant Atheism, Richard Dawkins actually explained the issue in-depth at a TED Talk...as seen in Richard Dawkins: Militant atheism | Talk Video | TED.com. The way the term has been used, it tends to be applied to atheism which is hostile towards religion (what it views as religion) and seeks to destroy any vestiges of God and religion as being a dominant/influential force in giving value to others - especially within the world of science/public. Essentially, they tend to differ from moderate atheists because they have the desire to propagate atheism and also hold religion to be harmful (with the claims generally including thoughts such as "Religion has been the main cause of violence/problems of man" or "Any belief in God or gods always leads to mess" ) - with it being the case that Militant atheism was very much an integral part of the French Revolution, Soviet Union in its era, the Cultural Revolution of China.....and is currently expressing itself today in the ideas of the New Atheist authors.

With being an anti-theist, antitheism is the belief that theism and religion are harmful to society and people, and that if theistic beliefs were true, they would be undesirable. More specifically, while an atheist is someone who sees God’s existence as being very implausible, an ANTItheist (or New Atheist, militant atheist, atheistic fundamentalist…) is an atheist believing that all religions ought to disappear and that it is morally permissible (if not mandatory) to use ridicule, mockery and emotional bullying to destroy the faith of all religious believers. Taking it further, a fascistic atheist is an antitheist believing that it is good for the state to introduce laws which would quicken the demise of all religions - a modern example being Richard Dawkins and his suggestion to forbid all kinds of religious educations, even for liberal and progressive religious parents. For reference, one can consider examining The Problems with Anti-Theism - Boldly Go | Boldly Go
 
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Gxg (G²)

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With that said, there are extremely intelligent Christians, such as a Francis Collins and many others and there are some atheists who are not intelligent, but the overall trend is pretty clear there is a correlation.
Francis Collins is one of the people I've greatly appreciated, especially as it concerns his work on the Human Genome project and his ways of
helping to show science and faith in harmony explaining theism/God and views on creationism in ways that can truly connect with those in atheism/non-theistic backgrounds hearing arguments for the Creation account which don't make because of coming from some of the more dogmatic YEC backgrounds.
 
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KCfromNC

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Gxg (G²);65595462 said:
Seeing that the Quakers in many parts were very aggressive (if aware of the history), of course militant was a term to describe them - just as it is with many atheists.

That has nothing to do with you attempting to conflate religious with militant. Are you saying that evrey modern day Quaker religious service is militant?

Moreover, there is no escaping the fact that many religions do not believe in higher beings at all
Yep, religions can be atheist. As can people. It's a useful adjective in a world filled with god-believers. Doesn't make it a religion, though.

... lots of off topic rambling snipped ...

None of that deals with what other atheists have already said - seeing how atheism has never been simply a lack of belief in gods or goddesses.
No, that's exactly what the word means.

If you wish to adhere to atheism in the simplistic definition, that's your choice - but is far from the formal definition.
And yet dictionaries agree with me. Interesting you'd pretend that means that I'm not using the formal definition.
 
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KCfromNC

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"People who don't believe in god in a way which makes me uncomfortable"
 
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LoAmmi

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Gxg (G²);65601707 said:
But with Christ, truly, one cannot put him into pieces if one wishes to say they will honor Him for what he stood for. And I agree with C.S Lewis in what he noted in his book "

C.S. Lewis's argument is deeply flawed. For one, a lot of what Jesus said had been said by rabbis who lived before him. Secondly, he is arguing that because someone has a mental illness such as believing they are what they are not, they cannot also have sound moral advice. So, Liar, Lord, or Lunatic is terrible and should stop being used by Christians.
 
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cloudyday2

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Also people who think they are Napoleon, etc. have grandiose-type delusional disorder. These people can behave completely normally except for believing the delusional idea. It's not the same as schizophrenia where people stop bathing, wander the streets, cut themselves,...

So that is something to consider with all these religious figures such as Moses, Jesus, Mohammad, ... I think an alternate name for grandiose-type is messiah-type.

Apart from their delusions, people with delusional disorder may continue to socialize and function in a normal manner and their behaviour does not generally seem odd or bizarre.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delusional_disorder
 
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JGG

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That's still fairly different from the ones I've gotten so far. I've read that it's a political movement, those who believe there is no God, and others. Most could not differentiate between militant atheists and regular atheists. Why would they?

The Christian who claims to have coined the term summarized it as being a belief that there is no God, that religion is harmful, and actively trying to convert people to atheism. So yours is the closest I've seen yet.

But, why is someone who feels that the beliefs of others are harmful, wishes to convert others to their belief, and is not agnostic about their beliefs militant? If it were a Christian, wouldn't they be an evangelical?


This I have nothing to compare to as nobody else will answer the question. However, I have a problem with the etymology: Anti-theism refers directly to God. To say they're against religion is problematic as the root "-theo-" means God. Not all religions have gods. From that perspective, you could claim they are anti-theist-religions. Perhaps the word that should be used is anti-religious.

I'm just saying both are poorly utilized words.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I agree that it does depend a lot with who you talk to - although seeing what other Atheists have said on the matter when it comes to the difference between those who are aggressive in attacking those believing in God/gods/goddesses and those who are atheist, I do think that's worth considering. Of course, there can be differing levels/types of "militant" - and the context makes a difference. Words can change over type and the concept of atheism combined with being militant isn't something that I think the Christian you spoke of can be accurate on since many never believing in Christ saw themselves as quite militant in focus. The French Revolution and others from that era come to mind as well as other groups...

I don't think it'd be right to say that it's wrong if you feel beliefs others have are harmful and you wish to convert - but that's not the same as being militant in the sense popularly used by other atheists.

The same dynamic has also gone for Christians - for in fact, I have been called militant many times and within Christianity, this is an ongoing debate. Even people like Martin Luther King were considered militant - militant pacifists to be specific - and it wasn't the same as the militancy that was indicative of aggression/harming others. There was more discussion elsewhere on the issue, as seen here:

GG




 
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Gxg (G²)

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That I can understand - and thus, whenever it is said that atheism is simply being against God, it should be clarified that the definition is not fully accurate. Although in many ways, etymology involves words developing differing contexts within social settings. We know, for example, that saying "The roof is on fire!!!" in a party scene doesn't mean that the literal definition of fire is what is within view (as the phrase is simply meant to show exciting fun). The same goes with Anti-Theism ...the term itself isn't something meant to give the view that those supporting it are solely for opposition to religion supporting the concept of God - but it can also include opposition to any religion with theistic perspectives (and theism also deals with divine beings in general).

Moreover, when it comes to saying that it'd be better to say anti-religious, that tends to go back to the issue of what many atheists/atheistic groups (which have protested to be treated with the same rights afforded to religious groups) have said on atheism being a religious dynamic in/of itself....
 
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Gxg (G²)

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C.s Lewis never said anything about Christ not noting things which earlier rabbis and leaders said - for it was well understood in his day that many things he didn't come out of the hat with. That is why he was considered an excellent teacher - but that's not the same as saying all things he did were simply giving teaching referencing back to rabbis since many things he said differing rabbis disagreed with (and of course, other scholars in Judaism have noted that many of the things Jesus said which were seen in opposition to Judaism were actually quite acceptable according to other rabbis - a Judaism believing in a Divine Messiah, which was rejected earlier and yet it is now being seen as acceptable. more shared here and here and here/here).

What Lewis was arguing - as have others (even non believers) - is that one cannot claim Christ was simply a moral teacher when examining the rest of what He claimed.
 
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LoAmmi

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Gxg (G²);65605551 said:
What Lewis was arguing - as have others (even non believers) - is that one cannot claim Christ was simply a moral teacher when examining the rest of what He claimed.

Why not? Again, it's prejudice against those with mental illnesses to think that they couldn't be moral teachers while being delusional about themselves or other matters.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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That has nothing to do with you attempting to conflate religious with militant. Are you saying that evrey modern day Quaker religious service is militant?
None of that has anything to do with what other atheists (starting with Richard Dawkins) have already noted on what the term militant means in references to individuals/organizations of atheists such as themselves. Moreover, it avoids dealing with the bottom line fact of how the term "militant" was also used of Christian groups - and one cannot backtrack when asking the question of whether Quakers were to be considered militant and many are still today. As no one was arguing for EVERY single Quaker being militant when noting others who were, the same logic is present when speaking of groups of atheists who are militant. Context.

Again, you - and you alone - assume anyone was speaking of being religious as simultaneous with being militant
Yep, religions can be atheist. As can people. It's a useful adjective in a world filled with god-believers. Doesn't make it a religion, though.
Circular argument you just gave that doesn't deal with the bottom line that claiming atheism can't be religion because it beliefs in Gods/goddesses is inconsistent with the fact that other religions don't believe in gods/goddesses as well..
... lots of off topic rambling snipped ...
Lots of ad hominem that has little to do with atheism (and actually showing understanding of it). If the best you can do is rant, then it does a bad job at actually dealing with atheism on its own terms.


No, that's exactly what the word means.
And again, religion doesn't just deal with belief in God or gods. Pantheism is a direct example of that - which can be materialism as well. Avoiding that doesn't change the facts..


And yet dictionaries agree with me. Interesting you'd pretend that means that I'm not using the formal definition.
None of that deals with what was already noted (or Encyclopedias for that matter which are always STANDARD for more detailed information rather than only one definition ) - as well as dictionaries that don't support your mindset when it comes to what other atheists have already noted when it comes to atheism being supporting as a religion by the U.S Constitution and religon itself dealing with any system of rules/applications to life. Get over it
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Why not? Again, it's prejudice against those with mental illnesses to think that they couldn't be moral teachers while being delusional about themselves or other matters.
Not really - and as it is, we already know that logically no one really believes what you noted fully since you're not going down to listen to anyone/everyone who is criminally insane or with severe mental illnesses as great figures of morality - otherwise, Ted Bundy and Charles Manson are also great moral teachers.

And no one said anything about mental illnesses being something that keeps one from speaking truth - what was said was that no one can minimize what Christ said as if He's a great moral teacher when he did things great teachers aren't to do.
 
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LoAmmi

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I think Liar, Lunatic, or Lord is an argument Christians use to convince themselves. It is not convincing once you take a few minutes and truly examine it.

Are you saying all people with mental illnesses are immoral or are evil? They can't be good people with a genuine delusion in something? They have to be unable to be a great teacher?
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I think Liar, Lunatic, or Lord is an argument Christians use to convince themselves. It is not convincing.
?
That doesn't address whether one is fully consistent with themselves and thinks others with mental illnesses of all kinds are able to be qualified as moral teachers. Again, if really consistent, you'd also be for Hitler being seen as a great moral teacher in his thoughts on the Jews (as he said many things others saw as unstable even when doing great things) or Charles Manson and others. Before even offering a counter- argument of "Mental illnesses are things great people can have!!" (which is true), it has to be shown the extent one goes if using the argument against someone else they don't like - and if they don't like others they condemn severely as being nothing but false, they cannot be inconsistent in claiming "But it was true for Jesus that He was somehow delusional." As it is, saying he was delusional isn't an argument either since it cannot be proven automatically simply because one believes such - that'd be argument of personal incredulity.

Saying Christ was delusional isn't a convincing argument and even others not believing in Christ have noted how it tends to be circular when assuming it had to be the case.
 
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LoAmmi

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This paragraph makes no sense in context of what I said. Nowhere did I say that all people with mental illness are great moral teachers. I would appreciate it if you stopped playing the extremes game with me. I refuse to play.

I don't think Jesus was a great moral teacher. I'm just arguing against the stupidity of saying a person with a mental illness cannot be a moral teacher or that it disqualifies them from giving sound advice.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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It just seems to me that of all the areas in the US, Southern Christians (Southern Baptists) are more likely to equate Atheism with being anti-American.
As it is, people all over say many things are anti-American. At one point, be it in the South or the North (Atheist or Christians), it was the case that saying a Black Christian had the right to vote/get equal treatment was highly anti-American based on the ethnic group speaking
 
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Gxg (G²)

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You already avoided dealing with the context when throwing out a false scenario assuming people believing Christ to either be a liar, lunatic or lord must be of the thought that others with mental illnesses can't be helpful...and that was pointless. Focus - as the issue was making plain that one cannot be consider a good moral teacher in the context Lewis noted when seeing that not great moral teachers DON'T do certain things - it has nothing to do with one saying mental illnesses (or taking medicine for depression) are always a sign of one not being moral. And we already know the context of what Lewis pointed out if you read the rest of what he said when speaking of how there are many who are not labeled moral teachers because of their background/history - Hitler being one of them and others he brought up which are deemed "crazy" (rightfully so ) and no one is intellectually dishonest enough to claim "So you mean mentally ill people can't be great teachers? You mean people in facilities for the mentally ill are to be discriminated against?" - in the same way people saying that gang violence needs to end in the black community get to deal with arguments from others making a false caricature as if people were saying "So you mean blacks are all gang members?"

As it is, if you want to play games on the matter, you can do so - there are other threads for focus on that. But don't take words out of contexts with Lewis since even unbelievers have noted how people can respond with ignorant claims against Lewis that are not consistent with what He said. One basic example being here in Philosophy News | Liar, Lunatic, or Lord?: A Reconstruction
 
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