Atheism

[seashale76]

So, a while back, there was a thread where an atheist quoted a bunch of Christians here at CF on how they viewed atheists/atheism. Most of those quotes showed a lack of understanding on the topic and even demonized people. Many people jumped on the band wagon chiding those Christians and their views for being wildly inaccurate. Fair enough. They were wrong.

However, time and again, I have encountered atheists on-line who say things about their atheism that only reiterate what these theists are saying. I recall mentioning that on the thread in question, only for it to be mostly ignored. Whatever. Yet, it doesn't change the reality. I've come across enough atheists on-line who constantly try to make atheism something other than a lack of belief in gods for me to realize it is more common than many would like to think.

Normally, I don't really care, but when some of these people come to a Christian forum, it is a case of them seeking us out than the other way around, so I'm confronted with this. (Before anyone starts in on me, I am not talking about the regular atheist posters here at CF. I haven't seen this problem with them. I'm talking about the less frequent posters and the fly-by-night types.)

A quote from someone who claims to be an atheist:

Atheism is a belief. It is a belief that the world is as we observe, measure and expiriance it. It is a belief that we are not living in some kind of Matrix, like the movie, but we are living in the world we see every day. Believing in a god would be giving up reality.

I think that's adding to the definition. It seems that this is a case of someone confusing their reasons for being an atheist with what atheism actually is.

Perhaps I want to say 'go forth and educate your brethren' but I know there's no organized structure/group to educate. However, I think it is a two-way street. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. So, this thread now exists.

If there was anything I'd want everyone to know about atheism/atheists (be they theist or atheist), it is the following:

1) Atheism is a lack of belief in gods/deities. That's it.
2) You likely know atheists in real life and like them as people.
3) Most atheists aren't like the villains in a Chick Tract.
4) Being an atheist doesn't magically make one a critical thinker nor does it mean one has any grasp of logic.
5) Being an atheist doesn't make one more intelligent.
6) People are atheists for a variety of reasons, some of which are purely emotional.
7) Atheists don't deserve to be demonized or condescended to.
8) Most atheists are still very much a part of the culture they were born into, and are still influenced even by the religious aspects of it. I don't know about you all, but I've met more than my share of Sola Scriptura atheists on-line, for example.

Chime in, add to this, explain your own views, etc. I'm not atheist bashing, I just happened to notice this scenario again today and decided to comment.

 

[andy b]

when i first came on to this forum atheist posters really annoyed me.Im kind of new to this and i saw them as a fly in the ointment so to speak in developing my faith.Ive changed my view on this and i actually like reading some of there posts and am glad there here.If God created everything then they should be embraced as part of the plan.The thing with the INTERNET is you only see part of someones persona, they may come across as the anti christ but in real life they may be a pussycat with a heart of gold.

 

[WarriorOftheLord]

I do agree that atheism is a lack of belief in gods, but as a corollary, they believe only in the physical world. To believe in only the physical world is to deny anything dubbed supernatural, including gods.

 

[seashale76]

I do agree that atheism is a lack of belief in gods, but as a corollary, they believe only in the physical world. To believe in only the physical world is to deny anything dubbed supernatural, including gods.

You're adding to it. I don't think we can say this of all atheists. I've seen professed atheists on-line who believe in things unseen, just not gods.

 

[seashale76]

when i first came on to this forum atheist posters really annoyed me.Im kind of new to this and i saw them as a fly in the ointment so to speak in developing my faith.Ive changed my view on this and i actually like reading some of there posts and am glad there here.If God created everything then they should be embraced as part of the plan.The thing with the INTERNET is you only see part of someones persona, they may come across as the anti christ but in real life they may be a pussycat with a heart of gold.

Too true. A friend of mine is a super nice guy, but I found him in an on-line forum a few years ago being very negative toward believers. I never let him know I saw his posts.

 

[WarriorOftheLord]

You're adding to it. I don't think we can say this of all atheists. I've seen professed atheists on-line who believe in things unseen, just not gods.

Oh, ok. I see now.

 

[alien444]

You are right that atheism is nothing more than non-belief in God. You don't need a belief system in order to not believe in something---you simply do not believe it exists---it is a non-factor in your worldview. However, atheists tend to have things in common such as a complete rejection of anything supernatural and a reliance on science as an explanatory force. You are also right that it stems from a variety of reasons--some emotional, some psychological, and some strictly logical. And some atheists have a profound respect for religion and some a deep hatred.

 

[seashale76]

You are right that atheism is nothing more than non-belief in God. You don't need a belief system in order to not believe in something---you simply do not believe it exists---it is a non-factor in your worldview. However, atheists tend to have things in common such as a complete rejection of anything supernatural and a reliance on science as an explanatory force. You are also right that it stems from a variety of reasons--some emotional, some psychological, and some strictly logical. And some atheists have a profound respect for religion and some a deep hatred.

Thanks for helping to show there are all sorts. (BTW- I'm also in KY.)

 

[cloudyday2]

I agree with everything seashale said except for the idea that atheism is not a belief.

My view is:
- Atheism is a possible reality, Christianity is a possible reality, ...
- We knowingly or unknowingly have a set of several possible realities and a probability for each one.
- When taking an action (sleep in the graveyard or not) we imagine the outcomes for each different reality, factor-in the probability of each reality, and take the action with the highest expected return.

So atheists are people who at this particular time in their lives think that the atheist reality is the most likely.
Christians are people who at this particular time in their lives think that the Christian reality is the most likely.
Atheism is as much a belief as Christianity IMO.

(Nobody ever agrees with me on this, but I keep trying. )

 

[bhsmte]

You're adding to it. I don't think we can say this of all atheists. I've seen professed atheists on-line who believe in things unseen, just not gods.

Agree with this and with most of your OP.

Atheism is just a non-belief in a diety, that is it. Atheists may be pro life or pro choice, republicans, democrats or independents and on and on and on.

Now, there are some traits that are much more common with atheists, especially in the United States and that is, it is much more likely someone will be a non-believer if they have a very high level of education and the numbers on this are quite compelling.

With that said, there are extremely intelligent Christians, such as a Francis Collins and many others and there are some atheists who are not intelligent, but the overall trend is pretty clear there is a correlation.

 

[seashale76]

Agree with this and with most of your OP.

Atheism is just a non-belief in a diety, that is it. Atheists may be pro life or pro choice, republicans, democrats or independents and on and on and on.

Now, there are some traits that are much more common with atheists, especially in the United States and that is, it is much more likely someone will be a non-believer if they have a very high level of education and the numbers on this are quite compelling.

With that said, there are extremely intelligent Christians, such as a Francis Collins and many others and there are some atheists who are not intelligent, but the overall trend is pretty clear there is a correlation.

Sadly, I've seen this myself. I was raised in a denomination where higher education wasn't the norm. In fact, there was a definite anti-education vibe (unless it was their version of Christian education). It was really weird, but my parents were simultaneously held up for being educated and looked down on for it- almost like they were considered pet wolves. They both had graduate degrees and taught in the sciences, so they had the evil educator plus evil science double whammy. It may seem like an odd way to put it, but it is the truth.

I think it is more of an issue in Evangelical Christianity than elsewhere. This attitude is not something I've encountered since I left that.

Talking to my sister and one of my sisters-in-law, this anti-education vibe we all felt growing up is one of the reasons neither of them are Christian now. There were mixed messages with pro-education expectations at home and the antithesis of that at church.

 

[Eudaimonist]

I think that's adding to the definition. It seems that this is a case of someone confusing their reasons for being an atheist with what atheism actually is.

Agreed. I occasionally see this kind of atheist online as well, and it irks me.

What can I say? He's mistaken about atheism, and since there is no Pope of atheism, you are going to run into divergent views of what atheism is from atheists.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[alien444]

All knowledge requires a small leap of, dare I say faith, because anything is possible. Reality is only what our senses and brain tell us it is. We have to have faith that our senses are sending us reliable information and our brain is processing it correctly. After that, what we deem "real" is based on the probability that it is real. I can say confidently that unicorns are not real, but there is the negligible possibility that they don't exist somewhere else in the vastness of the universe. God is indeed possible, but I see the probability of the existence of God as so negligible that I can confidently ignore it.

 

[Zoness]

Sadly, I've seen this myself. I was raised in a denomination where higher education wasn't the norm. In fact, there was a definite anti-education vibe (unless it was their version of Christian education). It was really weird, but my parents were simultaneously held up for being educated and looked down on for it- almost like they were considered pet wolves. They both had graduate degrees and taught in the sciences, so they had the evil educator plus evil science double whammy. It may seem like an odd way to put it, but it is the truth.

I think it is more of an issue in Evangelical Christianity than elsewhere. This attitude is not something I've encountered since I left that.

Talking to my sister and one of my sisters-in-law, this anti-education vibe we all felt growing up is one of the reasons neither of them are Christian now. There were mixed messages with pro-education expectations at home and the antithesis of that at church.

I'm not an expert but if I had to guess I'd say the anti-education vibe comes from a combination of the suspicion of higher education as an 'anti-Christian' force causing doubt in believers and the fundamentalist roots of most (statistically) of American Protestants' beliefs today. Being against higher education seems to be a response to not only secularism but the perceived liberalism and universalization of Christian doctrine that the original fundamentalists railed against. Bring in such things as evolution and its just game over.

All that said, I think its insane; I spent most of my teen years in such a denomination because my parents forced me into and I hated it. It by and large is the reason for my bitterness towards Protestantism and occasionally Christianity as a whole. Lots of old wounds.

 

[alien444]

I'm not an expert but if I had to guess I'd say the anti-education vibe comes from a combination of the suspicion of higher education as an 'anti-Christian' force causing doubt in believers and the fundamentalist roots of most (statistically) of American Protestants' beliefs today. Being against higher education seems to be a response to not only secularism but the perceived liberalism and universalization of Christian doctrine that the original fundamentalists railed against. Bring in such things as evolution and its just game over.

All that said, I think its insane; I spent most of my teen years in such a denomination because my parents forced me into and I hated it. It by and large is the reason for my bitterness towards Protestantism and occasionally Christianity as a whole. Lots of old wounds.

I am certainly not saying that there are not intelligent Christians (that would be a very dumb thing to say) and I am not saying there are not moronic atheists (equally dumb to say), however there is a strong correlation between education and non-belief.

 

[bhsmte]

I am certainly not saying that there are not intelligent Christians (that would be a very dumb thing to say) and I am not saying there are not moronic atheists (equally dumb to say), however there is a strong correlation between education and non-belief.

Agree.

Think about it. If you have a faith that is absent objective evidence, the ones who have a deep investment in that faith (from a psychological standpoint) are going to feel threatened by any objective evidence that may go against their faith and they will try to protect it at all costs, because the need for comfort, outweighs everything else.

 

[alien444]

Agree.

Think about it. If you have a faith that is absent objective evidence, the ones who have a deep investment in that faith (from a psychological standpoint) are going to feel threatened by any objective evidence that may go against their faith and they will try to protect it at all costs, because the need for comfort, outweighs everything else.

Exactly, A lot of Christians have a very unusual relationship with science and technology. To live in the modern world you must have a baseline trust with the scientific process of experimentation, peer review, and replication (in order to trust your car at 80mph. for example). But some Christians are only distrustful of science that challenges their beliefs and trustful of that which doesn't. They trust complicated and esoteric discoveries like DNA and the existence of subatomic particles, but skeptical of climate science, evolution and cosmology because the latter can be used to directly challenge their beliefs. It is a strange compartmentalization of understanding and trust.

 

[MehGuy]

Yeah, that thread was annoying. Glad it was locked or whatever..

I am a perfect example of an atheist who isn't very well read. I do feel like I get undeserved credit for being smarter and more knowledgeable than I am just because of my atheist status.

When I was a Christian I hated reading and learning, and it wasn't like I magically obtained knowledge and a yearn for learning the moment I realized I did not believe in a God, lol.

I did eventually come to be an atheist for rational reasons, but the thing that got the ball rolling was really my mental instability with my faith that almost drove me to suicide.

 

[JGG]

So, a while back, there was a thread where an atheist quoted a bunch of Christians here at CF on how they viewed atheists/atheism. Most of those quotes showed a lack of understanding on the topic and even demonized people. Many people jumped on the band wagon chiding those Christians and their views for being wildly inaccurate. Fair enough. They were wrong.

However, time and again, I have encountered atheists on-line who say things about their atheism that only reiterate what these theists are saying. I recall mentioning that on the thread in question, only for it to be mostly ignored. Whatever. Yet, it doesn't change the reality. I've come across enough atheists on-line who constantly try to make atheism something other than a lack of belief in gods for me to realize it is more common than many would like to think.

Normally, I don't really care, but when some of these people come to a Christian forum, it is a case of them seeking us out than the other way around, so I'm confronted with this. (Before anyone starts in on me, I am not talking about the regular atheist posters here at CF. I haven't seen this problem with them. I'm talking about the less frequent posters and the fly-by-night types.)

A quote from someone who claims to be an atheist:

I think that's adding to the definition. It seems that this is a case of someone confusing their reasons for being an atheist with what atheism actually is.

Perhaps I want to say 'go forth and educate your brethren' but I know there's no organized structure/group to educate. However, I think it is a two-way street. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. So, this thread now exists.

If there was anything I'd want everyone to know about atheism/atheists (be they theist or atheist), it is the following:

1) Atheism is a lack of belief in gods/deities. That's it.
2) You likely know atheists in real life and like them as people.
3) Most atheists aren't like the villains in a Chick Tract.
4) Being an atheist doesn't magically make one a critical thinker nor does it mean one has any grasp of logic.
5) Being an atheist doesn't make one more intelligent.
6) People are atheists for a variety of reasons, some of which are purely emotional.
7) Atheists don't deserve to be demonized or condescended to.
8) Most atheists are still very much a part of the culture they were born into, and are still influenced even by the religious aspects of it. I don't know about you all, but I've met more than my share of Sola Scriptura atheists on-line, for example.

Chime in, add to this, explain your own views, etc. I'm not atheist bashing, I just happened to notice this scenario again today and decided to comment.

That was my beloved list, which is still available and still growing. I still keep track of what Christians on CF say about us. I imagine I read nearly everything they post about atheists. Not atheism itself, but atheists the people.

I understand that there are atheists out there who are just as ignorant of atheism as Christians typically are, but that's one of the reasons I limited my quotes to CF. You all have quite the resource here with atheists who are typically well educated, well-spoken, and have spent a good time understanding their beliefs and others'.

I also limited myself to CF because it is still about the most liberal Christian message board around. Nobody can claim that I went to the most conservative boards. I took from the most balanced one available. I use the most neutral search terms I can, thus I came across this thread.

I use the sheer number of actual quotes from Christians, exclusively from the most representative source I can find to speak for itself. I do not need the equivelant of "the atheist professor" chain mail, or the movie God is not Dead. I don't need to use propaganda.

Despite that, the ignorant comments are a constant here. I found this thread and appreciate your approach, but it is far too little, far too late. Compared to this thread which portrays atheists in a more neutral, and fairer light (the first one started by a theist in years), there are five new threads started in the Christians Only section with a decidedly negative tone in the past week.

You, your approach, and your thread are appreciated, but pretty much a minority voice in modern Christianity. An anamoly, and hardly representative of Christianity on the whole. Don't you agree?

 

[Zoness]

I am certainly not saying that there are not intelligent Christians (that would be a very dumb thing to say) and I am not saying there are not moronic atheists (equally dumb to say), however there is a strong correlation between education and non-belief.

Of course! I've met many Christians whom I think are very intelligent and I respect them greatly and and I have many Atheists of the same variety.