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Atheism

Discussion in 'Philosophy' started by Matariki, Nov 17, 2011.

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  1. Dave Ellis

    Dave Ellis Contributor

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    Archaeology has confirmed some non-essential parts of the bible, and also dis-proven some non-essential parts of the bible.

    However, Science is almost 100% in disagreement with the Bible, how on earth do you claim science has confirmed the bible?

    Philosophy is very enlightening, you should try it sometime.

    And of course I know better than your God, he doesn't even exist. Likewise, what you quoted was not the words of God... they were the words of some monk a couple hundred years ago, who translated some ancient anonymous author's opinion on what God wants.
     
  2. KCfromNC

    KCfromNC Regular Member

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    Plus we get to have the Christians worship us. Especially the ones who say they don't - they'd just be using a no true Scotsman argument.
     
  3. Jonathan95

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    Nothing in the bible is disproven. For example, Sodom and Gomorrah is discovered, with burning brimstones and fire on the ground, thus God exists.


    Then it's not true science. The bible has the law of thermodynamics etc. The Second Law of Thermodynamics (Entropy) explained (Psalm 102:25-26). This law states that everything in the universe is running down, deteriorating, constantly becoming less and less orderly. Entropy (disorder) entered when mankind rebelled against God – resulting in the curse (Genesis 3:17; Romans 8:20-22). Historically most people believed the universe was unchangeable. Yet modern science verifies that the universe is “grow(ing) old like a garment” (Hebrews 1:11). Evolution directly contradicts this law.



    Black holes and dark matter anticipated (Matthew 25:30; Jude 1:13; Isaiah 50:3). Cosmologists now speculate that over 98% of the known universe is comprised of dark matter, with dark energy and black holes. A black hole’s gravitational field is so strong that nothing, not even light, escapes. Beyond the expanding universe there is no measured radiation and therefore only outer darkness exists. These theories paint a seemingly accurate description of what the Bible calls “outer darkness” or “the blackness of darkness forever.”

    Foolishness is not enlightening. The bible is the word of God. I have found 22 biblical prophecies fulfilled (regarding Israel), so far. So it proves God exists.
     
  4. Wiccan_Child

    Wiccan_Child Contributor

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    So you're just going to ignore the copious examples I gave of philosophy being of benefit to mankind?

    Tell me, do you even know what 'philosophy' means? And please, spare me the banal retort of "Philosophy? It's a sin!" - what does it actually mean, if you would.
     
  5. Wiccan_Child

    Wiccan_Child Contributor

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    Err, do you have a source for this? The actual Sodom and Gomorrah, with actual brimstone and fire still burning on the ground, as per your claim?

    No, no that's not what the Second Law of Thermodynamics states.

    The Bible also mentions a six-day creation period, a global flood, talking donkeys, etc - the Bible isn't supported by science.

    Do explain how. What part of the theory directly contradicts the law? Perhaps your confusion comes from your misunderstanding of what the law actually says

    You really are clutching at straws. The first verse refers to literal darkness - the kind you get when the Sun sets, not the kind that's outside the universe... The second and third refer to the darkness between the stars, as seen on Earth when you look up. The third also refers to sackcloth - do you believe that there's literally a sackcloth over the heavens?

    In any case, there is literally no reference to anything even remotely analogous to black holes or dark matter.

    No, they don't. There is measured radiation - it's called the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation. There isn't an outside, dark or otherwise.

    No, it doesn't. The fulfilled prophecies in the Bible are nothing more than self-fulfilling - Israel exists today only because it was prophecised, only because the Jews wanted to created it due to the prophecy. No prophecy, no Israel. It doesn't prove there's a God, it proves that people believe there's a God.
     
  6. Jonathan95

    Jonathan95 Veteran

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    Yes, the actual. Yes, actual brimstone and fire burning. Go on YouTube. Or realdiscoveries.org

    I don't know what that is.


    The bible isn't really supported by foolishness. (Psalm 14:1) says: "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good."

    A global flood is proven to have happened. Also, donkeys can talk if God makes them. Parrots can talk, why can't donkeys?



    I don't know.


    No, it's not literally sackcloth. Btw, in Zechariah 6, a nuclear bomb is described in great detail. Proves God exists. Look it up on YouTube - 3 parts.


    Satan has tried to prevent prophesy many times, like through Hitler. It's a miracle, Israel has turned into a garden, and Israel is protected and blessed in so many ways. Yet it's such small country and has Satanic countries around it. Proves God exists.
     
  7. Jonathan95

    Jonathan95 Veteran

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    I don't know what philosophy is. I don't need to know either. But the word of God speaks of it in a negative way.
     
  8. Dave Ellis

    Dave Ellis Contributor

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    So, by your standards of evidence... if archaeologists a couple thousand years from now are in possession of a Spiderman comic, and discover the ruins of New York City, that means Spiderman was real.

    Just because Sodom and Gomorrah actually existed and were used as settings by contemporary authors, does not mean the fables associated with those places actually occurred. Otherwise any story set in a real place, past or present must also be accepted as truth.

    Likewise, I severely doubt the archaeologists discovered burning brimstone's and fire when they dug up Sodom and Gomorrah... They likely discovered a bunch of old buildings, some pottery and a lot of dirt.

    The second law of Thermodynamics does not state that at all. The Law refers to heat transfer, and only refers to a closed system. We have no evidence that suggests the universe is a closed system.

    Your bit about the "curse" happening when man rebelled against God is pure assertion on your point.

    Also, Evolution has absolutely nothing to do with the second law of Thermodynamics, how do you even make that connection?


    Your lack of Scientific Knowledge shines through again. If you were aware of the basics of Astronomy, you would know we can not see to the edge of the universe. So we have no idea what is beyond the edge of the universe, or if there is a "beyond" the universe. That may be a nonsensical concept, like what's north of the north pole. It simply doesn't exist.

    And you are correct that light does not escape a black hole due to immense gravity, however that's about the only thing you're correct on.


    Matthew 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth

    - This makes no mention of dark matter or black holes at all. In fact, if the unprofitable servant was flung into space or a black hole, there's not going to be any weeping or gnashing of teeth, as he'd be quite dead.

    Jude 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

    - Likewise, this makes no reference to black holes or dark matter.

    Isaiah 50:3 I clothe the heavens with blackness, and I make sackcloth their covering.

    - heh... At least he's making a sackcloth to cover your supposed black hole.

    Come on now, seriously? this is your biblical evidence you're trying to tie science to? I've seen some bad ones, but these are horrendously laughable.


    First, what are your prophecies.

    Secondly, prove they were actually prophesied.

    Thirdly, give demonstrable proof those prophecies were completely fulfilled.

    Lastly, then tie those fulfilled prophecies to the existence of your God. Just because someone did something predicted in a holy book once upon a time, doesn't give any evidence whatsoever for a God in and of itself.
     
  9. Eudaimonist

    Eudaimonist I believe in life before death!

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    One reason you need philosophy is to understand how illogical that argument is.

    Even if what you are saying regarding the brimstone turns out to be true, it is also true that the city of Troy, mentioned in Homer's Iliad and long thought to be merely a legend, was discovered.

    Does this mean that the city was sacked by a Greek army that included Achilles, son of the sea nymph Thetis, thus proving the truth of Greek religion?


    eudaimonia,

    Mark
     
  10. Eudaimonist

    Eudaimonist I believe in life before death!

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    Ignorance and apathy together. How efficient.


    eudaimonia,

    Mark
     
  11. Jonathan95

    Jonathan95 Veteran

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    They found a whole lot of ash, and yes they found burning brimstones and fire on the ground. It's on video too. So it proves God exists.



    It wasn't Predicted, it was prophesied.

    1. Israel will prevail over its enemies

    Bible passage: Isaiah 41:12-14
    Written: perhaps between 701-681 BC
    Fulfilled: late 1900s

    2. The ruins of Israel would be rebuilt

    Bible passage: Amos 9:11, 13
    Written: about 750 BC
    Fulfilled: late 1900s

    3. Ezekiel prophesied prosperity for modern-day Israel

    Bible passage: Ezekiel 36:11
    Written: between 593-571 BC
    Fulfilled: late 1900s

    4. Trees again would grow in Israel

    Bible passage: Isaiah 41:18-20
    Written: perhaps between 701-681 BC
    Fulfilled: late 1900s

    5. Isaiah said Israel's fruit would fill the world

    Bible passage: Isaiah 27:6
    Written: perhaps between 701-681 BC
    Fulfilled: late 1900s

    6. Jerusalem would become the world's most important religious site

    Bible passage: Micah 4:1
    Written: sometime between 750-686 BC
    Fulfilled: Today

    7. Egypt would never again rule over other nations

    Bible passage: Ezekiel 29:15
    Written: between 593-571 BC
    Fulfilled: 1967, etc.

    8. Zechariah prophesied the Jews return to Jerusalem

    Bible passage: Zechariah 8:7-8
    Written: between 520 and 518 BC
    Fulfilled: 1967, etc.

    9. Israel's deserts will become like the Garden of Eden

    Bible passage: Isaiah 51:3
    Written: perhaps between 701-681 BC
    Fulfilled: Being fulfilled now

    10. Isaiah foretold of the worldwide return of Jews to Israel

    Bible passage: Isaiah 43:5-6
    Written: perhaps between 701-681 BC
    Fulfilled: late 1900s

    11. The fortunes of the people of Israel would be restored

    Bible passage: Deuteronomy 30:3-5
    Written: perhaps 1400 BC
    Fulfilled: 1948, etc.

    12. Israel’s army would be disproportionately powerful

    Bible passage: Leviticus 26:3, 7-8
    Written: perhaps around 1400 BC
    Fulfilled: 1948-49, 1967, etc.

    13. God would watch over the people of Israel

    Bible passage: Jeremiah 31:10
    Written: sometime from 626 to about 586 BC
    Fulfilled: 1948, etc.

    14. Ezekiel predicted when Israel would be re-established

    Bible passage: Ezekiel 4:3-6
    Written: between 593-571 BC
    Fulfilled: 1948

    15. The second Israel would be more impressive than the first

    Bible passage: Jeremiah 16:14-15
    Written: sometime from 626 to about 586 BC
    Fulfilled: 1948

    16. Israel would be re-established as a united nation

    Bible passage: Ezekiel 37:21-22
    Written: between 593-571 BC
    Fulfilled: 1948

    17. Isaiah spoke of a Israel being reborn in one day

    Bible passage: Isaiah 66:7-8
    Written: perhaps between 701-681 BC
    Fulfilled: 1948

    18. Israel would be brought back to life

    Bible passage: Ezekiel 37:10-14
    Written: between 593-571 BC
    Fulfilled: 1948

    19. Jacob’s descendants would regain control of Israel

    Bible passage: Amos 9:14-15
    Written: about 750 BC
    Fulfilled: Since 1948

    20. The people of Israel would return to “their own land”

    Bible passage: Ezekiel 34:13
    Written: between 593-571 BC
    Fulfilled: after May 14, 1948

    21. Defensive Aircraft over Israel

    Bible Passage: Isaiah 31:5
    Written: 713 BC
    Fulfilled: During World War I, on December 11, 1917, the British General Edmund H. Allenby,at war with the Ottoman Turks, did not want the city to be destroyed. He sent wave after wave of his planes flying low over Jerusalem and the Turks fled the city. No bombs were dropped and no blood was shed. He assembled his soldiers together and read them Isaiah 31:5 and told his troops, "Men, this day has this scripture been fulfilled before your very eyes." As a boy Allenby had been taught to pray for Israel: "Forget not Thine ancient people. Hasten the day when they shall be restored to Thy favour and to their land."

    22. Israel a land of flowing milk and honey

    Bible Passage: Exodus 3:8
    Written: ???
    Fulfilled: Israel's Land of Milk and Honey: Prophecy Fulfilled - Inside Israel - CBN News - Christian News 24-7 - CBN.com

    Note:
    Some point out that honey and milk share a paradoxical quality. Honey is kosher, though it is produced by a non-kosher insect. Milk is kosher, though it comes from a cow whose meat may not be eaten together with milk.

    The goodness of Israel will often times come from places where it is least expected.

    Read HOW they got fulfilled (except the 22nd):
    10 Bible prophecies fulfilled recently
    and
    10 Prophecies Fulfilled in 1948
     
  12. hollyda

    hollyda To read makes our speaking English good

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    My husband and I were discussing this the other day. We have fiction writers today, even some who inspire religious movements (L. Ron Hubbard, anyone?). Yet we have bible literalists assume everything written is fact without allowing for the possibility that older civilizations had people with great imaginations as well, never mind a penchant for storytelling.

    By this standard, Harry Potter will be the next savior for future generations.
     
  13. Wiccan_Child

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    If you don't know what 'philosophy' is, then that explains why you don't understand why it's insane to say it's sinful - it's as insane as saying "Speaking English is sinful!". You have to speak English to say "it's sinful". Likewise, you have to use philosophy to come to the (erroneous) conclusoin that philosophy is sinful.

    I gave you plenty of examples of what philosophy is. 1 + 1 = 2 - the core of mathematics, is philosophy.

    If you can't provide evidence for your claims, then that just shows you have none. I submit that you have no real proof of Sodom and Gomorroah, you have no real proof that they found actual burning fire and brimstone.

    And yet, you specifically mentioned it. You said:

    "The bible has the law of thermodynamics etc. The Second Law of Thermodynamics (Entropy) explained (Psalm 102:25-26). This law states that everything in the universe is running down, deteriorating, constantly becoming less and less orderly."

    So you don't know what philosophy is, yet you rail against it like it was Hitler himself. You don't know what the Second Law of Thermodynamics is, but you wax philosophic (yes, philosophic) about how is supports the Bible and disproves evolution.

    Right...

    Because parrots have the appropriate vocal cords, and we have substantial evidence of them imitating human speech. And if you think the Flood has been proven, by all means, cite your proof.

    Then why did you claim that that was the case?

    You don't know what philosophy is, you don't know what the Second Law is, you don't know how it allegedly disproves evolution... if you don't actually know these things, why say them in the first place? Did you really think you could just spout whatever nonsense you wanted without people noticing?

    I went over Zecharaiah 6, there is nothing even roughly similar to a nuclear bomb, no mushroom cloud, no fallout, nothing. What, exactly, refer

    No, it doesn't. As I said, Israel exists because the Jews wanted it to - that's a far more probable explanation than "God did it".
     
  14. Dave Ellis

    Dave Ellis Contributor

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    Are you trolling us by chance? The guy lit the brimstone on fire with a barbecue lighter!! Brimstone is another name for Sulfur, and he's calling it miraculous when it burns when he lights it on fire... This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen.


    Clearly

    Good for the bible... Captain Kirk says all your people must learn before you can reach for the stars.

    A global flood has been thoroughly disproven, there is no question on that. Saying otherwise is just being purely ignorant of basic Geology.

    Likewise, Parrots can talk because they have the physical capability of making those sounds. However, they are mimicking, not talking. Donkeys can't even do that.

    No, it is actually sackcloth, it says it quite clearly.

    And Zechariah 6 makes no mention of a nuclear bomb.... in fact there's nothing even remotely alluding to a nuclear bomb. It talks about a bunch of Chariots.


    That's not proof at all for God.... Israel became fertile after they irrigated the land, it didn't "just miraculously happen", there was major engineering works that went into it. Likewise, the fact it still exists might have something to do with the fact it has a massive, well armed and trained military backed by the even more massive U.S. Military. That's not exactly a miracle, or remotely proof of God either.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2012
  15. Dave Ellis

    Dave Ellis Contributor

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    First off, that's a very sketchy list that ranges from complete bunk to mildly ridiculous.

    However, even if I were to give you the benefit of the doubt, and grant you the fact that all 22 were indeed true, Absolutely none of those give any evidence whatsoever to prove the existence of your God.
     
  16. Jonathan95

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    They have still found brimstones and stuff, so it proves God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.


    The bible says nothing is impossible with God. He created donkeys, so he can make them talk too. You have no evidence it didn't talk.



    It's not literal sackcloth in space. You can't take it literally when it says so.


    Sorry, I meant Zechariah 5.
     
  17. Jonathan95

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    Can't really find the video where there were burning brimstones etc, but it's on YouTube when you search for Sodom and Gomorrah discovered or something.


    I don't know, I just quoted stuff from a site.


    Zechariah 5, sorry. Watch the three parts about Zechariah 5 nuclear prophecy on YouTube too if you want.


    No God gave it to them.
     
  18. Dave Ellis

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    Brimstone is Sulfur, which is incredibly common. You can find Sulfur in many places all over the world, including the Mediterranean.


    And the bible could be wrong. You have no evidence to support your claim, and attempting to shift the burden of proof isn't going to get you out of it.


    Then what can you take literally? And it doesn't say not to take that part literally.


    Zechariah 5 doesn't remotely allude to Nuclear weapons of any kind either...
     
  19. Jonathan95

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    Well they found other stuff like ashes etc.


    But it's not wrong. (2 Timothy 3:16) All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:



    Depends. Well it's obvious that verse isn't to be taken literal.


    Yes it does, and in great detail.
     
  20. Dave Ellis

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    This is the problem, you aren't thinking for yourself or thinking critically. You're regurgitating poor arguments that you admittedly don't even understand.

    Attempting to debate is fine, however, you must be informed on what you're trying to debate or you just come out looking foolish.

    You would be well served by reading up on the arguments you are making, then investigating the evidence that supports your arguments. Likewise, read up on the arguments against what you're saying, and the evidence, or rationale behind those arguments.

    And most importantly, be intellectually honest. Throw any ideas of what you want to believe out the window. Follow where an honest skeptical look at the evidence leads you to, whatever way that might be.
     
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