Atheism

[seajoy]

Thanks for the input...

You're welcome!

 

[Skaloop]

Yes, it is. That's why the Bible tells Christians not to be unequally yoked with non-Christians.

So Christian/atheist couples cannot be successfully married? There are more than enough examples to show that that is not the case.

If somebody claiming to be a Christian has the same morals and values as an atheist, then they need to take a good hard look at their claim to Christianity.

Ah, the old "not a real Christian" argument. An atheist can be as moral as a Christian, so there's really nothing preventing them from being equals. They may have a different basis for where those values come from, but in terms of how they express them, there is no substantial, concrete difference.

As for raising children, how can an atheist raise a child in the fear and admonition of the Lord, when they don't believe in God in the first place?

Leave it up to the Christian parent to teach the Christian beliefs, and let the atheist parents teach the atheist beliefs. Then, they can sit back and *gasp* let the child decide for herself what to believe.

I wasn't aware that the Lock Ness Monster gave us commands to follow in how we live our lives and how we live out our faith.

Directions and foundations for living a good and proper life can be found in myriad places besides the Bible. You have commandments to tell you not to kill, lie, or steal. I have my conscience and personal values to tell me that.

 

[Reformationist]

How is that in any way a prequesite? Whatever happened to Love?

True love is based on substance. Initial attraction is a whole other matter. Marriage must be based on substance. Therefore, if a Christian meets someone who has no regard for God, they would see that their relationship cannot feasibly develop into anything that would lead to marriage. You see WOTN, despite how Hollyweird likes to portray "love," it doesn't happen in a split second. Godly love is, as I said, based on substance.

So, in answer to your question, "Whatever happened to love," I answer emphatically, "love without God isn't love at all."

God bless

 

[united4Peace]

Yes, it is. That's why the Bible tells Christians not to be unequally yoked with non-Christians.



If somebody claiming to be a Christian has the same morals and values as an atheist, then they need to take a good hard look at their claim to Christianity.

As for raising children, how can an atheist raise a child in the fear and admonition of the Lord, when they don't believe in God in the first place?



I wasn't aware that the Lock Ness Monster gave us commands to follow in how we live our lives and how we live out our faith.

Hi Mike,
Okay, considering my husband is an atheist and Im not Im going to reply.
We hold the same values and morals in that we dont believe in stealing, lying, keeping one's promise to another, my husband cant stand swearing or cursing, he does slip, however Im the one who has the mouth and yet Im the Christian. Go figure .
He believes in hard work, he doesnt care for booze or drugs, keeps a level head and believes that each person has the right to their opinion.
When I start judging others over something he is the one to remind me that Jesus hung out with all sorts of people and I dont have the right to judge. The Atheist is the one to remind me about what Jesus has done for me. That Jesus gave his life for us.
He may not believe it, but he does believe in the historical Jesus and I guess seeing that, its enough for me. Jesus had God within (a part of God) so maybe in my silly thinking I sorta think that we all therefore follow God whether we believe we do or not.

As for Children believing...
The nice thing at least about my husband is that he is open minded enough to have them go to Church as he wants them to devolop their own beliefs.
If they believe in God than to him that is wonderful, if not then that is great also, but it will be because of education both ways....

 

[MikeMcK]

So Christian/atheist couples cannot be successfully married? There are more than enough examples to show that that is not the case.

I guess it depends on what your standard for success is.

Ah, the old "not a real Christian" argument.

No, the old "not everybody who claims to be a Christian is a Christian" Biblical teaching.

An atheist can be as moral as a Christian

Who's morals?

Leave it up to the Christian parent to teach the Christian beliefs, and let the atheist parents teach the atheist beliefs.

I see. So then, there's a descrepancy between the two, after all.

Directions and foundations for living a good and proper life can be found in myriad places besides the Bible.

But being that we're talking about Christians, we're talking about the directions and foundations taught in the Bible.

 

[Skaloop]

So, in answer to your question, "Whatever happened to love," I answer emphatically, "love without God isn't love at all."

That's extremely insulting to every non-Christian couple in love. It's an absurd claim laced with conceit and unsupported by real world facts.

 

[united4Peace]

True love is based on substance. Initial attraction is a whole other matter. Marriage must be based on substance. Therefore, if a Christian meets someone who has no regard for God, they would see that their relationship cannot feasibly develop into anything that would lead to marriage. You see WOTN, despite how Hollyweird likes to portray "love," it doesn't happen in a split second. Godly love is, as I said, based on substance.

So, in answer to your question, "Whatever happened to love," I answer emphatically, "love without God isn't love at all."

God bless

Funny, here I assumed we had been married (in a Church no less) over 12 yrs ago.

But as a relationship with an AThiest would never develop into anything that would lead to marriage it just cant be so....

 

[MikeMcK]

We hold the same values and morals in that we dont believe in stealing, lying, keeping one's promise to another, my husband cant stand swearing or cursing, he does slip, however Im the one who has the mouth and yet Im the Christian. Go figure

You have the same values and morals?

Does this mean that you don't honor the Sabbath and keep it holy? Does this mean that you can't say that you have no gods before the Lord?

As an atheist, he doesn't honor the Sabbath or keep it holy. He can't say that he has no gods before the Lord.

If you have the same values as him, then you have to admit that these things are true for you, too.

How do you submit to your husband as spiritual head of the household, when you know that he doesn't even believe in God?

How does your husband love you as Christ loved the church, when he doesn't even believe in Christ or what Christ has done for the church?

When I start judging others over something he is the one to remind me that Jesus hung out with all sorts of people and I dont have the right to judge.

Actually, if you're a Christian, then you're commanded to judge.

He may not believe it, but he does believe in the historical Jesus and I guess seeing that, its enough for me.

Is it enough for God? To borrow a line from Emeril Legasse, "I don't know where you're gettin' your Bible, but mine don't say that".

Jesus tells us in the Bible, "you must be born again". Not, you must have intellectual knowledge of an historical event, but "you must be born again".

If your husband believes in the historical Jesus, then does this mean that he believes that Jesus was crucified on our behalf and was raised again on the third day?

Jesus had God within (a part of God) so maybe in my silly thinking I sorta think that we all therefore follow God whether we believe we do or not.

No, actually Jesus is God. 100% God.

As for Children believing...
The nice thing at least about my husband is that he is open minded enough to have them go to Church as he wants them to devolop their own beliefs.
If they believe in God than to him that is wonderful, if not then that is great also, but it will be because of education both ways....

So, how does your husband raise your children in the fear and admonition of the Lord when he doesn't even believe in God?

 

[Skaloop]

I guess it depends on what your standard for success is.

Precisely. And if a Christian and an atheist have the same standards for a successful marriage, then they can achieve it. If they have differing standards, I wouldn't expect them to want to get married in the first place.

No, the old "not everybody who claims to be a Christian is a Christian" Biblical teaching.

So, for example, a Christian follows all of the necessary dictates of Christianity, but believes in evolution... is this person a true Christian? Where is the line? Who draws it? Who defines a true Christian? Those who are more "devout" than you might consider you to be a false Christian.

Who's morals?

The couple's.

I see. So then, there's a descrepancy between the two, after all.

I never said their weren't differences. I said the differences do not result in inequality. 2+2 is different than 2x2 is different than 2^2, but they are all equal to 4.

But being that we're talking about Christians, we're talking about the directions and foundations taught in the Bible.

And nothing is preventing those directions and foundations from being practiced or imparted to children. And nothing is preventing a non-believer from respecting and being open to the beliefs of a spouse.

 

[Reformationist]

That's extremely insulting to every non-Christian couple in love. It's an absurd claim laced with conceit and unsupported by real world facts.

While it was not my intent to insult anyone, I will not shy away from the truth. If your love is not based on, and predicated by, a love for God, your love is based on something else, something less substantial.

As far as "real world facts" go Skaloop, you asked for my perspective. The tenents by which I seek to live my life are not defined by "the world." They are defined by God.

If you feel that is conceited, go ask a fellow non-believer what how they feel about your questions. Maybe they'll tickle your ears with their anthropocentric views of life.

As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord (Joshua 24:15).

God bless

 

[Skaloop]

As an atheist, he doesn't honor the Sabbath or keep it holy. He can't say that he has no gods before the Lord.

Actually, every single atheist is supremely successful at that second part. I hold no god above or before your God. I rank no god higher than your God.

As for the first part, what is involved in honoring the Sabbath? Is not working part of it? Because an atheist can certainly take a day off. An atheist can even join in with a faith-related family outing.

 

[Reformationist]

Funny, here I assumed we had been married (in a Church no less) over 12 yrs ago.

Were you a Christian and he an athiest before getting married?

But as a relationship with an AThiest would never develop into anything that would lead to marriage it just cant be so....

If he is an athiest, any promise he made before God was not based on faith in God. Therefore, while you may honor them, his love for you is based on something other than a desire to obey and honor God.

You seem to desire to equivocate your husband's decent nature with obedience to God. It simply isn't so.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

Actually, every single atheist is supremely successful at that second part. I hold no god above or before your God. I rank no god higher than your God.

Actually, every single athiest that presumes they rank no god higher than the God of Abraham is only successful at deluding themselves, for in refusing to give God the honor He deserves, they place themselves as god before the Almighty. There is no position of neutrality. You are either for Him or against Him.

God bless

 

[MikeMcK]

Precisely. And if a Christian and an atheist have the same standards for a successful marriage, then they can achieve it. If they have differing standards, I wouldn't expect them to want to get married in the first place.

But that's the point. Christians do have different standards. If a Christian is going to be obedient, then God's word is their standard.

So, for example, a Christian follows all of the necessary dictates of Christianity, but believes in evolution... is this person a true Christian?

He can be wrong and still be a Christian. The problem is that, in order to believe in evolution, you must then deny other doctrines on which Christianity is built.

Where is the line? Who draws it? Who defines a true Christian?

Scripture.

Those who are more "devout" than you might consider you to be a false Christian.

And if they will back it up with scripture, I'll be happy to seriously and thoughtfully consider their criticism.

The couple's.

And, again, there is the problem. If the Christian is going to be obedient, then they should be followoing God's morals.

I never said their weren't differences. I said the differences do not result in inequality. 2+2 is different than 2x2 is different than 2^2, but they are all equal to 4.

But in your example, you're not teaching 2+2. You're teaching 2 + (-2).

You cannot teach on one hand that there is a God, and on the other that there is not a God and say that you're saying the same thing.

And nothing is preventing those directions and foundations from being practiced or imparted to children.

And how does an atheist do this?

And nothing is preventing a non-believer from respecting and being open to the beliefs of a spouse.

I would think that an atheist's conscience should prevent him from teaching something he believes to be a lie.

 

[Skaloop]

And how does an atheist do this?

He doesn't. He let's his spouse do it.

I would think that an atheist's conscience should prevent him from teaching something he believes to be a lie.

Teaching it himself, yes. Allowing it to be taught by his spouse out of respect for that person's beliefs and out of respect for his child's ability to make her own choice in beliefs is something that is easily done.

 

[MikeMcK]

He doesn't. He let's his spouse do it.

And, again, that's my point.

How does a Christian woman submit to a man who won't follow through on his responsibilities?

Teaching it himself, yes.

But if they have the same values, as I'm constantly being told that they do, why does he have a problem with teaching it?

Allowing it to be taught by his spouse out of respect for that person's beliefs and out of respect for his child's ability to make her own choice in beliefs is something that is easily done.

So then, the father in this case knowingly allows his child to be taught that something is true, that he believes to be a lie?

 

[Skaloop]

How does a Christian woman submit to a man who won't follow through on his responsibilities?

Well, that there may be our problem; I don't feel that a woman needs to submit to a man.

But if they have the same values, as I'm constantly being told that they do, why does he have a problem with teaching it?

Because he doesn't believe it. One doesn't need to believe something to consider it a value; parents don't believe in Santa Claus, but consider it a valuable childhood myth and teach their children about him.

So then, the father in this case knowingly allows his child to be taught that something is true, that he believes to be a lie?

Parents lie to their children all the time, Christian, atheist, or otherwise. They also allow their children to learn about things they themself do not believe. You child will learn about evolution (unless you are so irresponsible as to prevent them from becoming properly educated), despite whether or not you accept it. They might decide that evolution makes sense, or they may decide to stick with Biblical explanations, but they are allowed to make up their own minds. An atheist letting his child learn some Jesus stories is doing the same.

 

[MikeMcK]

Well, that there may be our problem; I don't feel that a woman needs to submit to a man.

If she's a Christian woman and she wants to be obedient to God, then she does need to submit to her husband, just as her husband needs to submit to her.

Because he doesn't believe it.

Then they don't have the same values.

Parents lie to their children all the time, Christian, atheist, or otherwise.

I don't. To my knowledge, nobody I know does.

You child will learn about evolution (unless you are so irresponsible as to prevent them from becoming properly educated)

Yes, how dare we be so irresponsible as to keep our children from learning that one day a fish woke up and he was a monkey and then the monkey woke up and was a man.

 

[Skaloop]

If she's a Christian woman and she wants to be obedient to God, then she does need to submit to her husband, just as her husband needs to submit to her.

Well, then, to go back to your earlier statement, what about an atheist husband means that he doesn't follow through on his responsbilities.

Then they don't have the same values.

A belief is not a value.

I don't. To my knowledge, nobody I know does.

I find that extremely unlikely.

Yes, how dare we be so irresponsible as to keep our children from learning that one day a fish woke up and he was a monkey and then the monkey woke up and was a man.

Well, if they learn that definition, which is in no way representative of how evolution happens, you should keep them from learning such falsehoods. You'd have done well to educate yourself as well; you would have learned that nobody within the scientific community proposes that your description of evolution is accurate. Is that what you tell your children evolution is? If so, then you are indeed lying to them. However, if you are stopping them from learning the actual scientific explanation of evolutionary biology, then you are in fact hindering their education and propogating ignorance. Would you be proud (in a non-sinful way) if your child became a doctor, helping the sick and injured? That is impossible for them unless they gain a proper education in biology, of which evolution is a key concept. And learning evolution is in no way incompatible with the Christian faith.

 

[MikeMcK]

Skaloop, remember, this isn't a debate forum.

It's a forum for non-Christians to ask questions. I feel that I've answereed your questions and that anything more would be debating, which is against forums rules here.