Atheism one year with no reason to believe

[ahumanistbloke]

Eeeeewwww.

*Puts on his flame retardant (sp?) vest*

 

[A. believer]

Sorry just some scripture and thoughts.

Rape: Rape is one of the most heinous crimes imaginable. Yet few people know that the Bible often condones and even approves of rape. How anyone can get their moral guidance from a book that allows rape escapes me. Perhaps they have been lied to about the Bible and carefully detoured around all the nasty stuff in the Bible

Clearly Moses and God approves of rape of virgins. One of the sickest things you can do.

Just some thoughts its pretty long thanks for reading.Iput whare you can find these verses in the bible you look it up youreself if you want to.I have more stuff like this but it would take too long.Any comments

I have a few comments. Your argument is entirely incoherent. You've said that you're an atheist and you've implied that you're a materialistic naturalist. (For instance, when you said that, upon your death, you will "rot in the ground like everyone else.") But by rejecting belief in God, and adopting this belief, then you have no grounds to call anything "evil." If materialistic naturalism is truly the nature of reality, there is no "good" and there is no "evil." There just is what is. The concepts of good and evil imply that things ought to be a certain way and that they ought not be another way. But if all things have material causes, this makes no sense. Material causes have no moral content. By disposing of God, you've disposed of any justification for making moral judgments of any kind.

 

[Nymphalidae]

I have a few comments. Your argument is entirely incoherent. You've said that you're an atheist and you've implied that you're a materialistic naturalist. (For instance, when you said that, upon your death, you will "rot in the ground like everyone else.") But by rejecting belief in God, and adopting this belief, then you have no grounds to call anything "evil." If materialistic naturalism is truly the nature of reality, there is no "good" and there is no "evil." There just is what is. The concepts of good and evil imply that things ought to be a certain way and that they ought not be another way. But if all things have material causes, this makes no sense. Material causes have no moral content. By disposing of God, you've disposed of any justification for making moral judgments of any kind.

Humans need to cooperate to survive and produce offspring. Instant moral system.

 

[Nymphalidae]

Dude i have really searous problems with my grandmother over my atheism right now she wont accept it. ILL be back tommorrow.

It sounds like our grandmothers could get together and have a nice little chat about their godless grandchildren

 

[mamabear4]

Things are worse with my grandmother.....

Maybe a good talk with your grandmother would help you find peace in your world. Just a suggestion.


Don't become impatient with others, especially people within your family, who don't understand your beliefs. Family is the best thing you have going for you.



Be family. Cherish family. Listen to your family and you'll find they will listen to you. If you lose your family over ideologies you may never regain them again, and if you lose them forever, what do you have in life? Only your ideologies. Believe me, that will be a lonely existence.


Be thankful for your grandmother. Tell her you appreciate her concern for you. Send her flowers, carry out her garbage or find some sort of way to show her you love her and cherish her. If she disagrees with your beliefs and you chafe and run the other way, I think your beliefs have become entirely too important to you then. Keep your beliefs about God in their proper perspective. They aren't worth losing your family over.

I promise you, when you come to the end of life you will not remember the lofty ideas and ideals you aspired to, you will remember the love and respect you gave and recieved from your loved ones.

 

[A. believer]

Humans need to cooperate to survive and produce offspring. Instant moral system.

We need to do these things according to whom? If an individual doesn't feel the need to cooperate with others, then so much for this so-called "moral system." Morrowwind is calling certain actions "evil," and he sounds downright morally indignant about these things. Does evil just mean "not conducive to the goal of propogating the species?" But what moral compulsion does anyone have to agree to this common goal? And what makes this a "good" goal anyway? If humanity continues or if it becomes extinct, then so what? Either we are or we aren't. In a materialist worldview, there's no warrant for saying that anything ought to be or not to be. Things simply are what they are. And despite the fact that the neurons firing in your brain are leading you to think that rape and murder are bad, if the neurons firing in mine lead me to appreciate them, then what's to say that your neurons are leading to "good thoughts" and mine are leading to "bad ones?" Again, material processes have no moral content. They just are.

 

[ravenscape]

I have a few comments. Your argument is entirely incoherent. You've said that you're an atheist and you've implied that you're a materialistic naturalist. (For instance, when you said that, upon your death, you will "rot in the ground like everyone else.") But by rejecting belief in God, and adopting this belief, then you have no grounds to call anything "evil." If materialistic naturalism is truly the nature of reality, there is no "good" and there is no "evil." There just is what is. The concepts of good and evil imply that things ought to be a certain way and that they ought not be another way. But if all things have material causes, this makes no sense. Material causes have no moral content. By disposing of God, you've disposed of any justification for making moral judgments of any kind.

What do you mean by the term moral content? And why do you think that non-theists don't make moral judgements or behave according to a moral code? There are many reasons to behave morally besides "I'll burn in hell if I don't".

 

[Nymphalidae]

We need to do these things according to whom? If an individual doesn't feel the need to cooperate with others, then so much for this so-called "moral system." Morrowwind is calling certain actions "evil," and he sounds downright morally indignant about these things. Does evil just mean "not conducive to the goal of propogating the species?" But what moral compulsion does anyone have to agree to this common goal? And what makes this a "good" goal anyway? If humanity continues or if it becomes extinct, then so what? Either we are or we aren't. In a materialist worldview, there's no warrant for saying that anything ought to be or not to be. Things simply are what they are. And despite the fact that the neurons firing in your brain are leading you to think that rape and murder are bad, if the neurons firing in mine lead me to appreciate them, then what's to say that your neurons are leading to "good thoughts" and mine are leading to "bad ones?" Again, material processes have no moral content. They just are.

It's clear you lack a basic understanding of biology. Let me help you. Every individual is out for themselves - for the continuation of their genes either through direct reproduction or kin selection. There is no such thing as group selection, thus there can be no inherent goal in any of us to "continue the species". Some organisms, including humans, require social groups for optimal reproduction. In cases like this actions that benefit the group generally benefit the individual. Individuals that disrupt and injure the group through things such as murder and theft are ostracized or killed. It is easy to see how a moral system could come about through simple biological mechanisms.

 

[CaptainVirtuous]

I disagree. I think atheism is based on pride and a selfish love of sin. Sin can be fun and atheism has no concept of sin. No one watching you, do whatever you want. I've been there done that. Moved on. There's more to life.

I don't need a book to tell teach me morals. My beliefs have nothing to do with pride or sin. Just because a person is not Christian does not make them a bad person, just as being Christian does not make a person good. It feels like many Christians can do what they want just becuase they feel like they can just go ask for forgiveness if they do something wrong and they feel relieved of their mistakes. If I do something I feel was wrong, then I have to answer to myself to make things right instead of just asking for it to be taken away.

 

[CaptainVirtuous]

Your testimony thus far sounds very similar to mine at the same stage in life as you are now. Then at 24, I received new life in Christ. Perhaps your life will take a similar turn.

I'm almost 21 so I still have 3 years. I will not say right now I will never convert, but I will also not say I will convert. Anything is possible.

 

[Edx]

I am aware of atheist beliefs.

No you arent. See your post 61. On post 64 we see you were talking about atheists. I asked you what this had to do with atheists, and you showed me you didnt really know what atheism is.

I think atheism is based on pride and a selfish love of sin. Sin can be fun and atheism has no concept of sin. No one watching you, do whatever you want. I've been there done that. Moved on. There's more to life.

The above nonsence is annoying, but also I do find it slightly disturbing that certian believers think that the only reason humans dont go around killing raping and stealing is because they believe they are being watched and judged by a supreme cosmic overlord.

And your understanding of atheism here seems much more like an understanding of satanism, which you probably dont understand either.

Ed

 

[A. believer]

, but also I do find it slightly disturbing that certian believers think that the only reason humans dont go around killing raping and stealing is because they believe they are being watched and judged by a supreme cosmic overlord.

I'm amazed that you still don't understand the point being made even in light of all the time I've put into my posts to you. But since you haven't even acknowledged that you read my last post (which seems to me to be common courtesy after such a long and involved post, even if one decides to drop the discussion) I really don't know what you did and didn't understand about my arguments.

Anyway, in an attempt to clarify, Christians don't think that the only reason humans don't go around killing, raping and stealing is because they believe they are being watched and judged by a supreme cosmic overlord. We believe that most people don't do those things, even if they're atheists, because we have the law "written on our hearts." In other words, we believe that God created us with a conscience--an innate knowledge of right and wrong that, despite our fallen nature, guides the choices we make to one degree or another.

 

[A. believer]

What do you mean by the term moral content? And why do you think that non-theists don't make moral judgements or behave according to a moral code? There are many reasons to behave morally besides "I'll burn in hell if I don't".

There are many reasons to behave in a way that is commonly regarded as "moral," but the concept of morality--of intrinsic right and wrong--is incoherent within the context of a materialistic worldview.

 

[A. believer]

I'm almost 21 so I still have 3 years. I will not say right now I will never convert, but I will also not say I will convert. Anything is possible.

Indeed it is. And I wouldn't have thought for a moment that I would ever convert if one had asked me even three weeks prior to my conversion much less three years prior.

 

[A. believer]

It's clear you lack a basic understanding of biology. Let me help you. Every individual is out for themselves - for the continuation of their genes either through direct reproduction or kin selection. There is no such thing as group selection, thus there can be no inherent goal in any of us to "continue the species". Some organisms, including humans, require social groups for optimal reproduction. In cases like this actions that benefit the group generally benefit the individual. Individuals that disrupt and injure the group through things such as murder and theft are ostracized or killed. It is easy to see how a moral system could come about through simple biological mechanisms.

It's clear you lack a basic understanding of morality. We may choose to do something because it's morally good, and we may choose to refrain from doing something because it's immoral, but things do not become morally good because we do them and they do not immoral because we refrain from doing them. Morality isn't descriptive, it's prescriptive.

 

[Edx]

I really don't know what you did and didn't understand about my arguments.

I havent had time to reply to that second post yet, but I will get round to it soon.

Anyway, in an attempt to clarify, Christians don't think that the only reason humans don't go around killing, raping and stealing is because they believe they are being watched and judged by a supreme cosmic overlord. We believe that most people don't do those things, even if they're atheists, because the have the law "written on their hearts." In other words, we believe that God created us with a conscience--an innate knowledge of right and wrong that, despite our fallen nature, guides the choices we make to one degree or another.

That isnt what Listener said.

He said atheism is based on "pride and a selfish love of sin." He says that atheists can do whatever they want because "No one's watching". So then if we turn that around believers must think that if they didnt believe a god was watching over their every move they would do whatever they wanted (such as killing, raping, stealing.)

Ed

 

[A. believer]

I havent had time to reply to that second post yet, but I will get round to it soon.

I know it's long, and I don't mind waiting. But since you hadn't yet acknowledged even reading it, I was beginning to wonder if you intended to respond at all. Anyway, thanks for letting me know now.

That isnt what Listener said.

He said atheism is based on "pride and a selfish love of sin." He says that atheists can do whatever they want because "No one's watching". So then if we turn that around believers must think that if they didnt believe a god was watching over their every move they would do whatever they wanted (such as killing, raping, stealing.)

I think what he meant (and he can correct me if I'm wrong) is that atheists don't acknowledge a standard outside of themselves so that they can easily rationalize whatever behavior they want to. Before I was converted, I had definite standards of morality and, in some things, I was more scrupulous than some Christians might be. But in other areas, I was quite adept at rationalizing my behavior and intellectualizing in such a way that I deemed what I did perfectly acceptable. When one makes oneself the standard, this will be the result. Some people will be "more moral" and others less so, but people are naturally inclined toward rationalizing that which they most want. This is also evident in society as a whole. As our nation has moved away from the presumption that morality is based upon a fixed and transcendent standard and increasingly embraced the idea that man is the measure of all things, morality has, as a whole, declined dramatically.

 

[Morrowind360]

A believer you make many presumptions on something that you do not know.

People make out in themselves of what good and evil is dont give me that bs about without god there is no good and evil (same tactics my grandmother uses).Here is my version of good and evil evil=something i dont want to do good=something i want to.Some things dont apply to the rule like killing and stealing. Stealing is okay if you only do it out of nessity of survival.Killing is okay if someone is trying to kill you and youu have no other choice.Rapeing as i see it has no good side to it no matter what someones believes. Remember that even if you see something as good it could turn out to become a evil.Ex:You saved someones life and they were a serial killer you thought it as good but you have just then let the killer kill more victims.Just my opinion.

I told my grandmoter if she cant accept my atheism then thats her choice and i can accept her christianity it up to her to decide.

When have i called myself a materialistic naturalist?

I got the Bertred Russel book its called religon and science.

Oh and dont make a lot of small posts just make one long one.

 

[MartinM]

We don't just observe reality, we experience it. And we must interpret reality not only in accordance with our observations but with our experience in order for our interpretation to render all of reality intelligible.

...and?

 

[MartinM]

There are many reasons to behave in a way that is commonly regarded as "moral," but the concept of morality--of intrinsic right and wrong--is incoherent within the context of a materialistic worldview.

Well, if you insist on reserving the word 'morality' to describe only systems of absolute morality, then no, morality doesn't exist. But that's word games, nothing more.