atheism as lack of belief.

[Jeremy E Walker]

In order to trust in a deity isn't it necessary to first believe that it exists?



The ministerial use of reason is another example of religious faith. If your only purpose in reasoning is to defend a position that you will not reconsider if the reasons turn against it, then you are engaging in sophistry, not philosophy.



But ultimately the arguments and evidence are inessential to that person. He would believe even if there were no evidence and even if the evidence unequivocally turned against his favoured doctrines. That is faith as I have described it.



Exactly.



Not so, because the apologist places so little epistemic weight on the arguments he uses that they are basically rendered superfluous.



That is faith as I have described. You have provided an instructive example.

Here is another example, from Answers in Genesis:

​

You are being unreasonable because there is no reason that would ever force you to reconsider your beliefs; in other words, you cannot be wrong, no matter what. You have plainly stated that, if anything contradicted that inner sensation you call the "self-authenicating witness," you would regard it as false. This raises serious questions about whether you accept basic fallibilism for your beliefs, which in turn raises questions about intellectual honesty. If you can't be wrong, even if it were definitively shown to you that you probably are wrong, then how is one to reason with you?

What is true is true. What is false is false.

Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

He that followeth Him shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

No evidence could be presented to me to show me Christ is not who He says He is. I have a relationship with a person. His name is Jesus Christ. He is God and He is Spirit. You cannot see Him. Christ died for my sins and rose for my justification. Mohammed did not do this for me. His dead body is lying in a tomb somewhere. Gautama Buddha did not do this for me. He too is dead. Neither did Zeus, Odin or your beloved divine flame. But Christ is alive. The grave could not hold Him. He is risen and is seated at the right hand of the Father and dwells in the hearts of them whom He has chosen before the foundation of the world and is coming again to judge the quick and the dead.

So yea. I can tell you that everyone who denies the Son denies the Father and stands condemned.

Why?

The Holy Spirit bears witness to the truth.

He came not to give men the power to judge but to love, to forgive, and to be merciful and gracious. Now we know that there will be some to depart from the faith. According to your own words, you are one of them. There are others also. Each man in this life is choosing which side he is going to be on and where he is going to spend eternity.

Choose wisely, for you will suffer loss if you choose wrong.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

What is true is true. What is false is false.

Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

He that followeth Him shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

No evidence could be presented to me to show me Christ is not who He says He is. I have a relationship with a person. His name is Jesus Christ. He is God and He is Spirit. You cannot see Him. Christ died for my sins and rose for my justification. Mohammed did not do this for me. His dead body is lying in a tomb somewhere. Gautama Buddha did not do this for me. He too is dead. Neither did Zeus, Odin or your beloved divine flame. But Christ is alive. The grave could not hold Him. He is risen and is seated at the right hand of the Father and dwells in the hearts of them whom He has chosen before the foundation of the world and is coming again to judge the quick and the dead.

So yea. I can tell you that everyone who denies the Son denies the Father and stands condemned.

Why?

The Holy Spirit bears witness to the truth.

He came not to give men the power to judge but to love, to forgive, and to be merciful and gracious. Now we know that there will be some to depart from the faith. According to your own words, you are one of them. There are others also. Each man in this life is choosing which side he is going to be on and where he is going to spend eternity.

Choose wisely, for you will suffer loss if you choose wrong.

See? You have faith exactly as I have described it.

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

See? You have faith exactly as I have described it.

And I have God. Just as I have described Him.

I would rather have what you despise with God than have what you glorify without Him.

I have had everything that you have my friend.

I have had everything I ever wanted.

I would forsake it all if it mean't I would have God. For he who has God has everything.

 

[WoundedDeep]

See? You have faith exactly as I have described it.

How will you feel if an outsider tries to redefine a girl you are dating and try to convince you she is not who she claims to be, even though the outsider knows not a single thing about her?

Yet, atheists try to do the above to us Christians by discrediting God even though they know not a single thing about Him. Yet we are not offended and we try to persuade you people, because we want you to have the same kind of relationship, for your benefit.

 

[FireDragon76]

Science can get things wrong, but when they do, it has a shelf life, because it is only a matter of time, before it is corrected.

So, I have "confidence" and "trust" in science, because of the proven track record and no "faith" is required.

There is no guarantee that scientific progress in understanding will continue into the future just because it has in the past. To say otherwise is to not understand the inherent problem with inductive logic.

It still comes down to faith.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

And I have God. Just as I have described Him.

I would rather have what you despise with God than have what you glorify without Him.

I have had everything that you have my friend.

I have had everything I ever wanted.

I would forsake it all if it mean't I would have God. For he who has God has everything.

I can see that you believe that to be true, and that's fine. Just call it what it is - faith. Don't pretend that you reached your theological commitments by reason or that they are amenable to reason. Don't pretend that others are intellectually obligated to believe what you believe on faith.

 

[Davian]

Present the evidence that convinced you, not the stuff you use to rationalize your beliefs.

In saying this, you're doing the same thing atheists often complain of when religious people do; you're assuming my motives for what I believe. you don't have a valid reason for thinking the cosmological argument is not convincing to me.

I did say "evidence that convinced you", not what you find convincing.

Also, in another thread, you told me "I've always believed in God", a response that is obviously lacking an implied phase in which the evidence for gods was critically analyzed.

You're also oversimplifying; humans always have multiple reasons for even their simplest choices, something like the existence of God will have dozens of influences regarding one's belief, each of which would be worthy of a thread in itself. I'd break mine into four main categories:
1. Origins; of the universe, life, the human psyche...
2. Miracles; personal witnessing of prophecy and healings, Jesus' resurrection, Biblical prophecy, other reports of miracles, near death experiences.
3. Values and pragmatics; believing in God enriches my life, etc.
4. Worldview; theism works best for me in fitting together all the facts into a harmonious whole--it has better explanatory power than other theories.

There is not room on this thread to debate all of these, but I'll make other threads when i get around to it.

Which begs the question: why this forum, and not "Exploring Christianity"?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

How will you feel if an outsider tries to redefine a girl you are dating and try to convince you she is not who she claims to be, even though the outsider knows not a single thing about her?

I am no mere "outsider" though. I have insights from having been on "the inside."

Yet, atheists try to do the above to us Christians by discrediting God even though they know not a single thing about Him. Yet we are not offended and we try to persuade you people, because we want you to have the same kind of relationship, for your benefit.

I'm not convinced that anyone knows anything about a deity. All we have are people who claim to know about his nature, his personality, and his intentions.

 

[Percivale]

I did say "evidence that convinced you", not what you find convincing.

Also, in another thread, you told me "I've always believed in God", a response that is obviously lacking an implied phase in which the evidence for gods was critically analyzed.

Which begs the question: why this forum, and not "Exploring Christianity"?

FYI, I was not born full-grown and armed like Athena. As a child, I believed it because my parents taught me to. In my teens when I was re-evaluating what I believed, if I remember correctly the cosmological argument was quite primary in giving me confidence that God exists, and everything else I mentioned had a role too. I've been critically examining my beliefs regularly since then, and have made some changes as a result. I used to be a young earth creationist and believe the Bible was inerrant, but have found a lack of evidence for those beliefs, and evidence against them. So clearly I'm not just believing because I was raised that way.

 

[bhsmte]

And I have God. Just as I have described Him.

I would rather have what you despise with God than have what you glorify without Him.

I have had everything that you have my friend.

I have had everything I ever wanted.

I would forsake it all if it mean't I would have God. For he who has God has everything.

Why use the term; "despise"? I didn't see the poster claim he despised anything.

It could be what most atheists say it is; they just don't see the evidence to support the Christian story and they can not reconcile it with reality. Just as you can't reconcile the claims of other religions.

 

[Eudaimonist]

I would rather have what you despise with God than have what you glorify without Him.

Fine with me. Knock yourself out. Do what you feel is right for you.

I have had everything that you have my friend.

I very much doubt that.

Individuals can be distinctly different from each other in many ways, and your mind-reading "skills" aren't impressive. You don't know what I have, and if you had it you'd almost certainly still be an atheist since I'm happy with what I have.

I have had everything I ever wanted.

That, I believe.

I would forsake it all if it mean't [sic] I would have God. For he who has God has everything.

We all want what is in harmony with our deepest personal truths, and would discard everything else to get that. That is not something that only Christians do.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[GrowingSmaller]

How would a logical behaviorist, who sees beliefs as propensities to actin a certain way(like wearing a coat indicating the belief it's cold outside), know whether one was an atheist? If atheism is a lack of belief, can one be an active atheist?

 

[Eudaimonist]

How would a logical behaviorist, who sees beliefs as propensities to actin a certain way(like wearing a coat indicating the belief it's cold outside), know whether one was an atheist? If atheism is a lack of belief, can one be an active atheist?

No idea. Are there any behaviorists around here? Maybe one will pipe up.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

Fine with me. Knock yourself out. Do what you feel is right for you.



I very much doubt that.

Individuals can be distinctly different from each other in many ways, and your mind-reading "skills" aren't impressive. You don't know what I have, and if you had it you'd almost certainly still be an atheist since I'm happy with what I have.



That, I believe.



We all want what is in harmony with our deepest personal truths, and would discard everything else to get that. That is not something that only Christians do.


eudaimonia,

Mark

What is it that you have that I lack?

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

I can see that you believe that to be true, and that's fine. Just call it what it is - faith. Don't pretend that you reached your theological commitments by reason or that they are amenable to reason. Don't pretend that others are intellectually obligated to believe what you believe on faith.

I never said I was saved by an argument for God's existence or that by reason alone I gained Christ.

My sensus divinitatis was quickened by God and this was not done by reasoned argument but by the power of God. God revealed to me that I needed to trust Him and place my life in His hands for safe keeping and I did just that.

Since then, I know I have been changed.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I never said I was saved by an argument for God's existence or that by reason alone I gained Christ.

I never said that you said that.

My sensus divinitatis was quickened by God and this was not done by reasoned argument but by the power of God. God revealed to me that I needed to trust Him and place my life in His hands for safe keeping and I did just that.

What of those whose sensus divinitatis leads them to theological commitments that differ to your own? Why lend so much epistemic weight to your personal sensus divinitatis? What makes you think that your own sensus divinitatis is more reliable than that of someone of a different religion who feels just as strongly about his theological commitments as you do about yours?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

In relation to sensus divinitatis, or the "inner witness" described by Craig, Matt McCormick raises the question of whether the apologist can find epistemic fault in someone who doesn't believe as they do.

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

I never said that you said that.



What of those whose sensus divinitatis leads them to theological commitments that differ to your own?

What about them?

Why lend so much epistemic weight to your personal sensus divinitatis?

Because that is where God comes into man and makes His presence known.

What makes you think that your own sensus divinitatis is more reliable than that of someone of a different religion who feels just as strongly about his theological commitments as you do about yours?

The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit.

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

In relation to sensus divinitatis, or the "inner witness" described by Craig, Matt McCormick raises the question of whether the apologist can find epistemic fault in someone who doesn't believe as they do.

Yes.

Just because God must first draw a man to Himself through prevenient grace, it does not follow that therefore those who do not receive this grace are not culpable or responsible for their rejection of God and their stubborn, persistent, and willfull denial of Him.

If ten men are on death row and two receive a pardon from the governor because they have been acquitted and declared not guilty because someone stood in the gap for them and took the punishment they deserved, it does not mean that the other eight guilty men are going to get off also.

It simply means that the two received grace and the other eight did not. All were equally deserving of punishment, but since the two had an advocate, they were not called upon to suffer the punishment they deserved.

 

[variant]

How would a logical behaviorist, who sees beliefs as propensities to actin a certain way(like wearing a coat indicating the belief it's cold outside), know whether one was an atheist? If atheism is a lack of belief, can one be an active atheist?

You can probably spot an Atheist by what they don't do.

As far as Atheist activities? Wasting too much time online debating believers might be one.