Atheism and Self-Esteem

[npetreley]

Originally posted by seesaw
there is no other purpose other than to survive that is the way life works, life procreates and moves on and does it forever.

Not according to the latest scientific view of the universe. The latest view is that the universe is expected to wind down and eventually become a dead, cold wasteland. So if there is no G~d and your only purpose in life is the evolution-given instinct to survive, your "purpose" is ultimately illusory and futile.

 

[choccy]

And you can't make it more true by calling both microevolution and macroevolution "evolution" and then say that because you've given them a common term they're the same thing.

Does that go for speciation events as well?

Choccy

 

[kitten]

Just throwing in my two cents...as someone who has been suicidal...and who has believed in evolution since my teens....when I was a Christian, I might add.

My problems stemmed from a *genetically transmitted disease* called bipolar disorder, of which I have the most serious form. In addition to suicidal thoughts, I also experienced severe depression, panic attacks, and paranoia. Many attempts at medication over the course of several years failed.

Finally I hit upon the right combination of medicine AND personal truth, as follows: I only started to improve when I *denounced* Christianity and realized that I am the product of the unfathomable complexity of the universe.

As such, I stand in awe of the human race and its ability to survive. Consequently, I have such an ability and am now surviving *happily*, much much much moreso than when I claimed to be a Christian. Now I am no longer experiencing the major problems associated with severe bipolar disorder, and I am humbled to be interconnected with the rest of the universe.

 

[lithium.]

Originally posted by npetreley
Not according to the latest scientific view of the universe. The latest view is that the universe is expected to wind down and eventually become a dead, cold wasteland. So if there is no G~d and your only purpose in life is the evolution-given instinct to survive, your "purpose" is ultimately illusory and futile.

Nope thats not true, the universe is speeding up and all the galaxies are moving away from each other.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by seesaw
Nope thats not true, the universe is speeding up and all the galaxies are moving away from each other.

That's [almost] precisely what I'm talking about [minus the speeding up part]. If it is true that the universe is expanding forever and is therefore not cyclic (repeated big bangs), then the second law of thermodynamics dictates that it's all going to end up as cold, dead entropy.

entropy according to m-w, 2a, emphasis mine

2 a : the degradation of the matter and energy in the universe to an ultimate state of inert uniformity

 

[lithium.]

Originally posted by npetreley
That's [almost] precisely what I'm talking about [minus the speeding up part]. If it is true that the universe is expanding forever and is therefore not cyclic (repeated big bangs), then the second law of thermodynamics dictates that it's all going to end up as cold, dead entropy.

entropy according to m-w, 2a, emphasis mine

2 a : the degradation of the matter and energy in the universe to an ultimate state of inert uniformity

but the point is that the universe will never end. It is speeding up and everything is moving away but it will still be there.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by seesaw
but the point is that the universe will never end. It is speeding up and everything is moving away but it will still be there.

There, but lifeless. Dead. I'd say "pushing up daisies" but there won't be any daisies, either. So, like I said, So if there is no G~d and your only purpose in life is the evolution-given instinct to survive, your "purpose" is ultimately illusory and futile.

 

[lithium.]

Originally posted by npetreley
There, but lifeless. Dead. I'd say "pushing up daisies" but there won't be any daisies, either. So, like I said, So if there is no G~d and your only purpose in life is the evolution-given instinct to survive, your "purpose" is ultimately illusory and futile.

lol why do you think lifeless, just cause the universe is speeding up and everything is moving away doesn't mean it will be lifeless. The universe is so big it will never be lifeless.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by seesaw
lol why do you think lifeless, just cause the universe is speeding up and everything is moving away doesn't mean it will be lifeless. The universe is so big it will never be lifeless.

You obviously don't understand the terms "inert" and "entropy" so there's no point in continuing this volley. Enjoy.

 

[Pete Harcoff]

Originally posted by Jedi
How can you not see how the thought that someone viewing himself as nothing more than a product of random chance with no purpose, direction, meaning, living in a world where things such as love, intimacy, compassion, and joy do not exist (since, according to naturalism/atheism, they’re nothing but chemical reflexes in the brain), knowing that you live only to end your meaningless existence six feet under to rot with bacteria and worms... you can’t see how this can tear down someone’s self-image? None are as blind as those who don’t want to see.

You sound like you're trying to justify *your* faith, rather than actually make commentary on someone else's.

You keep repeating "how can you not see?". Maybe it's because there is nothing there for me to see. I have friends and family I enjoy spending time with. There are things I enjoy doing (primarily expressing myself creatively). I enjoy marveling at the wonders of the world, and try, as best I can, to understand them. I have hopes, dreams, and goals for my life. Religious beliefs, while I find the subject fascinating, doesn't really factor into my worldview (outside of casual agnosticism).

This is where you’re quite mistaken. The things done by Naturalists are seen as permissible by Naturalism (since all moral judgments are subjective, and so right and wrong really don’t exist, thus everything is equally acceptable). Why was the Holocaust wrong? According to Naturalism, it was natural selection taking its course through survival of the fittest (The Strong, Nazis, wiping out the weak, Jews). Whenever murder takes place, it should be seen as just as okay as when you see it happen in the animal kingdom. With this in mind, I see no reason why you should be the least bit concerned about atrocities at all. Not only that, but Islam permits a Muslim to do these things (In fact, it promotes it by making Jihad the only sure-fire way to get into Heaven). It is acceptable under Islam. You cannot say this for Christianity. There is a fine difference.

*sigh* The Nazis practiced artificial selection, not natural selection. Learn the difference.

Do you even know what Jihad means? I suggest learning a little more about the Islamic faith (some world politics wouldn't hurt, either).

(FYI, the Bible talks a lot about killing, you know).

So you mean to say differently? You have a purpose (other than to survive), meaning, worth, and reason to survive? Where’s your objective basis for these things? You can’t give yourself worth any more than money can give itself worth (Money is only valuable, because people put value into it. If no one wanted money, it would be worthless).

As I said, I've found meaning in my life. Just because you can't understand that, doesn't undermine my own personal self worth.

 

[lithium.]

Originally posted by npetreley
You obviously don't understand the terms "inert" and "entropy" so there's no point in continuing this volley. Enjoy.

hey don't go there, i might be still in college but i am not a loser that doens't know what he is talking about, i know physics, Astronomy and Cosmology. that is like saying i don't know what i am talking about. Just don't go there. I know what inert and entropy is, but i am rigth the universe will never be lifeless.

 

[ocean]

The universe will never entropy because it is not a closed system.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by ocean
The universe will never entropy because it is not a closed system.

Really? From what external source is the universe getting its additional energy, matter or structure?

 

[OneLargeToe]

Seesaw, eventually the universe WILL become a "dead" place.  All the stars will burn all their fuel, no new stars will form and the universe will grow dark and cold.  Of course, we're talking about trillions of years from now.

However, nothing says that humanity can't stop that from happening.  As we learn and grow and expand out into the cosmos, we will (hopefully) advance to the point where we can control the forces that cause star formation, nuclear fusion, etc.

That, I believe, is the greatest thing about humanity: our ability to reason, change and affect the environment around us.  We have already done this with Earth and will only be a matter of time before we expand out and bring life to other worlds and other stars.

Npetreley would have us believe we are nothing more than sheep whose only existance is to worship and serve a supreme being.  Forget reason, forget science, forget advancement - for they mean nothing.

And I hope he is wrong.  I have a much more grand vision of the human race.  One far more noble and compeling than being a sheep.

 

 

[lithium.]

Originally posted by OneLargeToe
Seesaw, eventually the universe WILL become a "dead" place.  All the stars will burn all their fuel, no new stars will form and the universe will grow dark and cold.  Of course, we're talking about trillions of years from now.

However, nothing says that humanity can't stop that from happening.  As we learn and grow and expand out into the cosmos, we will (hopefully) advance to the point where we can control the forces that cause star formation, nuclear fusion, etc.

That, I believe, is the greatest thing about humanity: our ability to reason, change and affect the environment around us.  We have already done this with Earth and will only be a matter of time before we expand out and bring life to other worlds and other stars.

Npetreley would have us believe we are nothing more than sheep whose only existance is to worship and serve a supreme being.  Forget reason, forget science, forget advancement - for they mean nothing.

And I hope he is wrong.  I have a much more grand vision of the human race.  One far more noble and compeling than being a sheep.

 

I understand what you are saying, but as one of my physics professeurs said, there is so many stars that are being born everyday the universe is infinite

 

[OneLargeToe]

This is getting off-topic, however, the universe is NOT infinite.  It may seem so because it's so vast.  But there is a finite amount of energy and matter in the universe (assuming none is being funneled in from some other universe or, as Npetreley might would believe, g~d isn't pouring energy in with the Holy Grail).

So, it's only a matter of time before it's all used up.

 

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by OneLargeToe
Npetreley would have us believe we are nothing more than sheep whose only existance is to worship and serve a supreme being.  Forget reason, forget science, forget advancement - for they mean nothing.

Thank you for trying to summarize my philosophy with such clarity. But as a minor point, I actually would have said we are no more than "ignorant, scum-sucking sheep" and advocated that we all get lobotomies so that we don't have to use reason anymore.

 

[OneLargeToe]

I actually would have said we are no more than "ignorant, scum-sucking sheep" and advocated that we all get lobotomies so that we don't have to use reason anymore.

Wow, you're further out there than I thought.

 

[lithium.]

Originally posted by OneLargeToe
This is getting off-topic, however, the universe is NOT infinite.  It may seem so because it's so vast.  But there is a finite amount of energy and matter in the universe (assuming none is being funneled in from some other universe or, as Npetreley might would believe, g~d isn't pouring energy in with the Holy Grail).

So, it's only a matter of time before it's all used up.

 

HEH as i already said the universe is infinte, I have been doing some reading and since alot of people believe there is other universes and bigbang there universe will always exist. Maybe not like it is now. But it will always exist.

 

[Pete Harcoff]

Originally posted by seesaw
HEH as i already said the universe is infinte, I have been doing some reading and since alot of people believe there is other universes and bigbang there universe will always exist. Maybe not like it is now. But it will always exist.

In other words, your definition of universe isn't just limited to our "known" universe. Which makes discussions on the subject even more confusing