Atheism and nihilism

[Ken-1122]

I don't know exactly what you are trying to tell me but my logic is that God is infinite meaning and atheists do not believe in God.

To not believe in God is not the same as not believing in the concept of infinity.

 

[Noxot]

To not believe in God is not the same as not believing in the concept of infinity.

I guess it depends on your definition of God versus the infinite. But my definition has to be rooted in a self since no one has declared God but those that are a self. And the infinite is not different to me either because I am one of those selves from the infinite self. but I think this requires some kind of spiritual self-knowledge. One could say everything that exists is speaking of the infinite if they are all part of it. A few ways of thinking about reality is
1. The finite has no meaningful relationship with the infinite, it is just an expression that Fades away at the service of the infinite. The finite is just an [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] that the infinite had and is done with.

2. The finite has infinite meaning because that is its source and what it is part of, it is the perfect other-self of the infinite. It is like a relationship of a father and a son or of a husband and a wife.

3. The finite and infinite are random mindless purposeless chaos of reality. at best intelligent finite things can make limited kinds of meaning for themselves, but there is no singular infinite meaning which regards little selves such as you and I. The infinite has no meaning, it has no self, it has no integral infinite self which all things are part of. The infinites "meaning" is in the finite things that try to make a meaning for themselves, there is no transcendental Oneness which in purpose gave birth to all diversity and meaning.

my line of thought is that mindless material is not the Ultimate Reality. Infinite material to me would just be one aspect of the infinite mind since material can be seen as mathematical information, which implies a logic and which to me implies a deeper part of reality. Infinite chaos which can produce anything is in my eyes incomprehensible wisdom which does what it wants. both descriptions speak of the same thing but in different ways.

so people might experience themselves as part of the chaos of reality or they might experience themselves as part of the order of reality. What is amazing is that it depends on themselves. self seems like a very important reality to me. By important I mean important to reality, fundamental to reality. We judge reality, we learn about reality, we theorize about reality, we experience reality, we become...

 

[Strathos]

Post #74 you were trying to make the argument that life is worthless if it is not infinite. You said

Because it ultimately amounts to nothing. It's like trying to throw buckets of water out of a sinking ship - you're wasting your time because the ship is going to go down sooner or later.

Those were your exact words. Now because you were making an argument about infinite, I thought your claim was the goal of throwing out buckets of water was to prevent the ship from sinking, but now that you’ve stated the goal is only to delay the inevitable, as you know with each bucket of water being thrown out is another microsecond the ship is delayed from sinking thus the goal of prolonging the inevitable has been accomplished; thus your argument from post #74 has been dispelled.

My point is that the delaying actions are ultimately futile since they can't stop the inevitable.

 

[Ken-1122]

My point is that the delaying actions are ultimately futile since they can't stop the inevitable.

And that point has nothing to do with those who choose to live a good healthy life even though they know they will die someday.

 

[Strathos]

And that point has nothing to do with those who choose to live a good healthy life even though they know they will die someday.

And I'm saying that what they are doing is pointless.

 

[Ken-1122]

I guess it depends on your definition of God versus the infinite.

Well if your definition of God is an inanimate rock that has existed eternally……

But my definition has to be rooted in a self since no one has declared God but those that are a self.

What is a “self”?

And the infinite is not different to me either because I am one of those selves from the infinite self. but I think this requires some kind of spiritual self-knowledge. One could say everything that exists is speaking of the infinite if they are all part of it. A few ways of thinking about reality is
1. The finite has no meaningful relationship with the infinite, it is just an expression that Fades away at the service of the infinite. The finite is just an [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] that the infinite had and is done with.

2. The finite has infinite meaning because that is its source and what it is part of, it is the perfect other-self of the infinite. It is like a relationship of a father and a son or of a husband and a wife.

3. The finite and infinite are random mindless purposeless chaos of reality. at best intelligent finite things can make limited kinds of meaning for themselves, but there is no singular infinite meaning which regards little selves such as you and I. The infinite has no meaning, it has no self, it has no integral infinite self which all things are part of. The infinites "meaning" is in the finite things that try to make a meaning for themselves, there is no transcendental Oneness which in purpose gave birth to all diversity and meaning.

my line of thought is that mindless material is not the Ultimate Reality. Infinite material to me would just be one aspect of the infinite mind since material can be seen as mathematical information, which implies a logic and which to me implies a deeper part of reality. Infinite chaos which can produce anything is in my eyes incomprehensible wisdom which does what it wants. both descriptions speak of the same thing but in different ways.

so people might experience themselves as part of the chaos of reality or they might experience themselves as part of the order of reality. What is amazing is that it depends on themselves. self seems like a very important reality to me. By important I mean important to reality, fundamental to reality. We judge reality, we learn about reality, we theorize about reality, we experience reality, we become...

You said an awful lot, and I have no idea what you just said. It’s as if we are speaking two different languages here. Anyway; good luck with your belief system


Peace.

 

[the iconoclast]

Agreed. Most religions exist on the fear of what occurs after death. I like the Epicurean approach...

While you’re alive, you’re not dead, so enjoy life.

When you’re dead, you won’t know you are, so why worry about it?....enjoy life.

Hey hey sir

I disagree with what you said. Forget Trump and politics, come have a debate with me.

 

[the iconoclast]

Firstly, I don't accept that your God exists

Hey hey occams barber

Fair enough. What would you need (.e.g. evidence or an experience) for you to accept?

What reason do you have to reject? (Give me examples)

Secondly, I have nothing to be saved from - the idea of salvation is meaningless

The idea of salvation is the deliverance from sin and its consequences. Now you have a meaning, what do you think about this meaning?

Thirdly, I have no interest in an after life. The idea of nothing is perfectly acceptable and not frightening

Well accepting the offer of nothing on earth is one thing. The reality of the actual situation is another.

You fear nothingness, do you fear the concept of an afterlife that may see you judged and on the other side of God?

Ps you may reply with an answer along the lines of you don't believe in hell. To that I'll just ask for you to justify your reason until you give me better depth and argument somewhere.

Have you considered that you may be wrong in regards to your afterlife?

Fourthly - I know you mean well but I'm not a mission field.

Yes you are. We want you and need you. Just remember there is always time.

Please do not insult my intelligence with the not-do-subtle attempts at conversion.

I'm applying the socatratic method and asking questions of you. Usually most people like to talk about themselves. My dear who said I was being subtle hehehe

I have lived quite happily for over 70 years without needing your God.

What do you not need God?

How about this. You are smarter than me and at the ripe old age of 70, you are pretty much set in your ways. I do not have a chance at converting someone else remarkable as yourself.

How about you indulge me and show me why/what/how you have gotten it right. Im no match for you so you have nothing to lose?

Cheers

 

[Larniavc]

I don't know exactly what you are trying to tell me but my logic is that God is infinite meaning and atheists do not believe in God. Comparing finite things with infinite things is always going to render the finite as nothing without the infinite. If meaning is rooted in the divine and God is universal then atheist partake of as much meaning as they wish. They just deny that meaning comes from God. it would be like a woman loving the ring and riches her husband gave her and ignoring and denying that she has a husband or family.

the finite of its own cannot be valued because it does not exist to be valued. Only what exists can be valued. that which ceases to exist has no value because it is not. Being finite has meaning because it is a mode of the infinite. The finite can be appreciated and experienced because it is a servant to Eternal realities that can Eternally enjoy that which ends and begins. you can derive finite things from infinite things but how could someone derive something infinite from what is finite? Therefore what is infinite is more important by its very nature.

How would no resolution have any kind of value whatsoever? how could vanity be worth anything of its own? No resolution can only be valued by infinite and eternal beings because it is the emptiness of what they are, and they want to experience vanity to give it meaning. So no resolution is only a theme and a game, an illusion partaken of to induce novel pleasure and experience.

scarcity does seem to have an important role but only in the light that it can be enjoyed. that which exists can enjoy and that which ends and thus does not exist cannot enjoy.


games are fun to play but when you become so obsessed and focused on them you start to harm yourself and neglect other parts of reality. but it is fun to get caught up in the competition, especially when there is a time limit on it and when there are others that you can compete with. some also like to compete with themselves. the lowest level of meaning is evolutionary meaning which is a crystallized symbol for higher meaning. Symbols are meant to point us to realities. getting good at having the things you need is nothing more than being a good slave. Only Eternal realities such as love and wisdom have lasting meaning, and only living beings can have love or wisdom. things only matter because the self and others are important and fundamental to reality. If there is no self there can be no meaning. If a self ceases to exist it can have no meaning. Meaning which perishes does not exist.



All such systems must depend on the Divine, Eternal and infinite reality which generates all things. Who is making the rules? The Divine and eternal reality is the consensus and all come from the same one source and reality called by some "God". Buddhist for instance call it the Buddha nature but they do not bother to explain the meaning of the discursive reality of suffering that they are in due the way their philosophy works. They do not bother with trying to understand the cause of this reality.

That was a lot to take it. I really can’t get my head around the train of thought that only values things that exist for ever.

Does that mean that transitory things have no value to you at all?

I normally have a very busy life what with work and family and friends. Time in my own is really rare and when I get it it is amazing.

But when I started working from home due to Corvid I found I had a lot of time in my own. It was no longer amazing. It became boring.

I sometimes wonder how dull an actual eternal existence would be.

 

[Allandavid]

Hey hey sir

I disagree with what you said. Forget Trump and politics, come have a debate with me.

Pass. I’m busy watching paint dry...

 

[KCfromNC]

the finite of its own cannot be valued because it does not exist to be valued.

I'll PM you my address and you can send me a check for whatever money you have. After all, since that's finite it can't be valued, so no loss if you give it up and send it all to me.

I mean, all of this philosophizing is fun, but let's see what happens when we actually try to apply these ideas to the real world.

 

[the iconoclast]

Pass. I’m busy watching paint dry...

Sir, YOU must be bored or you lack imagination for a witty reply.

Remember when we had that debate and you knew what you wouldn't accept but did not know what you would? I do, that shows you have a bias.

 

[the iconoclast]

I'll PM you my address and you can send me a check for whatever money you have. After all, since that's finite it can't be valued, so no loss if you give it up and send it all to me.

I mean, all of this philosophizing is fun, but let's see what happens when we actually try to apply these ideas to the real world.

Hey hey

Would you be willing to give it a try and test it out?

 

[KCfromNC]

Hey hey

Would you be willing to give it a try and test it out?

I already said I'm more than happy to take any amount of money from people who feel that something (like their money) being finite is worthless. Let's see how well this theory works in practice.

 

[Ken-1122]

And I'm saying that what they are doing is pointless.

But it is not pointless. Infinity is not necessary in order for something to have a point or value. The fact that I enjoy or value something right now makes it valuable now.

 

[Belk]

I guess it depends on your definition of God versus the infinite. But my definition has to be rooted in a self since no one has declared God but those that are a self. And the infinite is not different to me either because I am one of those selves from the infinite self. but I think this requires some kind of spiritual self-knowledge. One could say everything that exists is speaking of the infinite if they are all part of it. A few ways of thinking about reality is
1. The finite has no meaningful relationship with the infinite, it is just an expression that Fades away at the service of the infinite. The finite is just an [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] that the infinite had and is done with.

2. The finite has infinite meaning because that is its source and what it is part of, it is the perfect other-self of the infinite. It is like a relationship of a father and a son or of a husband and a wife.

3. The finite and infinite are random mindless purposeless chaos of reality. at best intelligent finite things can make limited kinds of meaning for themselves, but there is no singular infinite meaning which regards little selves such as you and I. The infinite has no meaning, it has no self, it has no integral infinite self which all things are part of. The infinites "meaning" is in the finite things that try to make a meaning for themselves, there is no transcendental Oneness which in purpose gave birth to all diversity and meaning.

my line of thought is that mindless material is not the Ultimate Reality. Infinite material to me would just be one aspect of the infinite mind since material can be seen as mathematical information, which implies a logic and which to me implies a deeper part of reality. Infinite chaos which can produce anything is in my eyes incomprehensible wisdom which does what it wants. both descriptions speak of the same thing but in different ways.

so people might experience themselves as part of the chaos of reality or they might experience themselves as part of the order of reality. What is amazing is that it depends on themselves. self seems like a very important reality to me. By important I mean important to reality, fundamental to reality. We judge reality, we learn about reality, we theorize about reality, we experience reality, we become...

Do you have any evidence of infinity or do you take it on faith?

 

[Strathos]

But it is not pointless. Infinity is not necessary in order for something to have a point or value. The fact that I enjoy or value something right now makes it valuable now.

And a million years from now, will anyone remember or care?

 

[Occams Barber]

And a million years from now, will anyone remember or care?

No?
OB

 

[Ken-1122]

And a million years from now, will anyone remember or care?

Why on Earth would I care what somebody thinks a million years from now? I find it far more important to care about what people think TODAY!

 

[the iconoclast]

Hey @Strathos

I like your style brother