Atheism and evil

[variant]

It makes sense, then, that you would think the same of good. So, in your opinion, something like love is also subjective?

All concepts are going to be ultimately subjective (or have subjective elements to them).

 

[bhsmte]

All concepts are going to be ultimately subjective (or have subjective elements to them).

Agree.

I would be interested in anyone showing how love is an objective thing.

 

[quatona]

I never meant to imply anything of the kind, so maybe I meant something else in saying you dismissed his concern.

So, here is the relevant part of our conversation leading to this:
Me:

To me it´s quite simple: I don´t want those people be killed, so I won´t help to kill them.

(Note: This was not a statement about Bonhoeffer, it was a statement about the situation in question).
Which you quoted and replied to:

I thought we had agreed such things can become quite complex.

(Note, that we had agreed that the moral aspects of certain situations can become quite complex. So I had to assume you were still talking about the situation).
You continued:
[/quote] But I do see how dismissing the concerns of others simplifies the situation.[/quote]
There´s me thinking you are still talking about the situation where I either help killing people or lie. I am wondering whose concerns I might have been dismissing in this situation (those of the Nazis interrogating me?).
So I asked:

Whose and which concerns specifically are you referring to as being dismissed, here?

To which you responded:

You indicated Bonhoeffer's consideration[...]

So I learned that you silently switched to the meta-level, even though we had been talking about the situation all the time.

Ok, back to your last reply:

I never meant to imply anything of the kind, so maybe I meant something else in saying you dismissed his concern.

So what did you "maybe" mean in saying that, and how did it relate to anything we had been talking about?

In another thread, you said you were OK if I wasn't interested in replying to you - even if it's my OP.

Of course I am ok with that.

Such was the case here. If you will note, of your multiple initial posts, I only replied to one - the one where you were speculating on my concerns. In that reply I asked you no questions. I only commented on those concerns of mine about which you speculated.

Cool. I am not sure how to take this remark: Are you indicating that I may only respond if you ask me a direct question?
Actually, I feel like saying whatever deems me worth saying. Do you have a problem with that? You are free to respond or not to respond, but I don´t know what telling me that I spoke even though you didn´t ask me a direct question but only commented on my post is supposed to imply.

Are you saying I misrepresented you?

No, I think I was quite clear in what I was saying. It didn´t involve any accusation of misrepresentation (which would actually have been a minor issue, because it happens all the time here - very often inadvertantly).

I repeat it here for you, but if you choose to explain, please avoid asking me questions if at all possible.

Well, what you repeated here "for me" was actually a question. ("I don´t know what purpose this law would serve" in context of us agreeing that morality must serve a purpose amounts to asking you - the proponent of the idea that such a law exists - what purpose this moral law would serve).
But I understand now that you don´t want to be asked questions. You are the guy who wants to ask questions.
Now, I am a guy who wants to ask questions, as well. And I will do it whenever I feel it´s necessary. You, of course, are free to abstain from answering them, and you are of course free to be as wordy and elaborate as you see fit in voicing your disinterest in communicating with me.

I'm not really interested.

 

[Resha Caner]

I am not sure how to take this remark: Are you indicating that I may only respond if you ask me a direct question?

No. I was stating that when people speculate about me, I sometimes comment on that speculation. When my reply contains no questions, it sometimes means I'm not seeking to extend the conversation (as in this case).

But I understand now that you don´t want to be asked questions.

Your generalization is incorrect. My comment referred only to a discussion with you in this thread.

You, of course, are free to abstain from answering them, and you are of course free to be as wordy and elaborate as you see fit in voicing your disinterest in communicating with me.

I hope to be done with this soon.

 

[bhsmte]

No. I was stating that when people speculate about me, I sometimes comment on that speculation. When my reply contains no questions, it sometimes means I'm not seeking to extend the conversation (as in this case).



Your generalization is incorrect. My comment referred only to a discussion with you in this thread.



I hope to be done with this soon.

Is it just me, or do many of your threads seem to reach a quagmire of misunderstanding?

 

[Resha Caner]

All concepts are going to be ultimately subjective (or have subjective elements to them).

No one has been able to demonstrate anything else yet.

 

[Resha Caner]

Is it just me, or do many of your threads seem to reach a quagmire of misunderstanding?

Then why do you bother?

I am well aware I relate with some people like oil and water. In other cases I enjoy the conversation. I don't feel responsible to those who see no value in it. They are free to move on.

 

[bhsmte]

Then why do you bother?

I am well aware I relate with some people like oil and water. In other cases I enjoy the conversation. I don't feel responsible to those who see no value in it. They are free to move on.

Its no bother, it is an observation, which is part of what I enjoy being on these boards, observing behavior, looking for common denominators and what results from it.

 

[Resha Caner]

Its no bother, it is an observation, which is part of what I enjoy being on these boards, observing behavior, looking for common denominators and what results from it.

Well, but you've got me pegged. I don't see how there could be any challenge in it for you anymore.

 

[bhsmte]

Well, but you've got me pegged. I don't see how there could be any challenge in it for you anymore.

Some observations are certainly quite clear, no question.

 

[Resha Caner]

Some observations are certainly quite clear, no question.

Does that mean other things aren't clear yet? You find me mysterious? Oooh. I feel special now.

 

[bhsmte]

Does that mean other things aren't clear yet? You find me mysterious? Oooh. I feel special now.

Interpret it however you like.

 

[Resha Caner]

Interpret it however you like.

Ah. It looks like I need to end my little experiment with you. But, hey, it was fun. Thanks.

 

[bhsmte]

Ah. It looks like I need to end my little experiment with you. But, hey, it was fun. Thanks.

Shucks, I love experiments.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Can there be morality without god? Can there be morality without that speck of dust over there? Of course.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Can there be morality without god? Can there be morality without that speck of dust over there? Of course.

Did you respond to the right thread? I do not recall anyone asking the question you answered. Perhaps you just wanted to add something different to the conversation . Can't say that that particular question hasn't been explored ad infinitum elsewhere though. I don't know of too many people that take the stance that a deity is necessary for a moral compass. Some may insist that a deity is necessary for a correct moral compass but those tend to be somewhat bias on the subject.

 

[True Scotsman]

That all sounds nice, but I don't think it justifies your actions any better than subjectivism. Giving food to someone who wants to die - forcing them to live a life they find unbearably painful - could be considered harm. Taking food from the one who has it and giving it to the one who doesn't could be considered harm to the one who had food. And so, giving or taking food becomes dependent upon personal biases as to whether the people involved think it has or hasn't caused harm.

Thinking about vandalizing my property is likely to come out in the way you relate to me. Someone thinking they can completely compartmentalize seems a fantasy.

Take that to its logical conclusion. If good and evil are subjective then anything goes. Human life is not an anything goes proposition. It requires a specific course of actions if it is to be sustained and any other course is harmful. The basic principle here is that there is never any justification for the initiation of force. Taking food from someone who has produced it by force and giving it to someone who hasn't earned it is a violation of individual rights. There are some issues on which there can be no compromise. Individual rights is one of those issues. Once you abandon the principle of individual rights you are operating on the premise of death and it is only a matter of time before you end up with North Korea or Pakistan.

 

[Resha Caner]

Take that to its logical conclusion. If good and evil are subjective then anything goes. Human life is not an anything goes proposition. It requires a specific course of actions if it is to be sustained and any other course is harmful. The basic principle here is that there is never any justification for the initiation of force. Taking food from someone who has produced it by force and giving it to someone who hasn't earned it is a violation of individual rights. There are some issues on which there can be no compromise. Individual rights is one of those issues. Once you abandon the principle of individual rights you are operating on the premise of death and it is only a matter of time before you end up with North Korea or Pakistan.

Indeed, it does present a challenge. And I know people are looking for human-based solutions. I just don't think anyone has found it yet.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Indeed, it does present a challenge. And I know people are looking for human-based solutions. I just don't think anyone has found it yet.

Not every problem has a workable solution

 

[Resha Caner]

Not every problem has a workable solution

An interesting comment. Sort of a zen thing. So what does one do when there is no workable solution?

With that, I will note I said I haven't seen a human-based solution.