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Atheism and Ad Absurdum

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So how can you call something objective and based on facts if it varies from person to person?

Because it is something we can demonstrate the way we demonstrate all facts.

Objective actions are the end result of subjective reasoning and values (morality)

I simply take the position that how you act is part of your morality. That the world you live in is part of your moral reasoning and I don't accept the idea that either can be truly separate and thus wholly subjective.

Because you have no way of proving he is wrong, and you are right, due to that fact that there is no agreement on what is wrong or right.

What you are saying is that I can't demonstrate a particular set of values wrong, and I agree in principle.

What I am saying is that I CAN speak to someone about their actions to deal with what someones actual values are (since they are capable of being unaware of which values they are really prioritizing and upholding) and I CAN talk to them about the consequences of their actions or planned course of action as it might be something they in principle would want to avoid.

So, I can have a discussion with someone based upon whatever common ground we can reach because peoples morality comes from their experiences which are objective, they operate in reality which is objective, and their actions are objective and their reasoning from moral to action is also accessible.

And yes I can absolutely call someones morality simply incorrect if their actions justified by their morality don't lead to whatever they actually value.

I’m talking about a person whose values conflict with your values, and their end goals conflict with your end goals. How do you prove your values and goals are correct and his are incorrect?

In the case where a person has an absolutely antithetical value system to me we have NO value overlap, where that person is both capable and effective at achieving their values I can not.
 
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Saying that it's incorrect implies that there is a correct answer to the question of what the most delicious ice cream flavor is. I agree it's a category error, that's why correct/incorrect don't apply at all.

It is a false statement, not in accordance with fact or truth, or incorrect.

To the bold, no it doesn't. You are incorrect because your proposition that there can be a most delicious iced cream flavor is a category error. Your statement is incorrect because it doesn't mean anything.

Saying the statement P "Chocolate is the most delicious iced cream flavor", is incorrect, or false means it's antithesis ~P is true that "Chocolate is not the most delicious iced cream flavor".

Which doesn't imply that there is an iced cream flavor that is the most delicious. It is incorrect because there isn't one, it's a category error.

I can draw the squarest circle. < Incorrect F
I can not draw the squarest circle < Correct T

The negation of a impossibility is a truth (outside of some technical semantic based language issues).

The difference in consequences is more about how strongly they're felt. How strongly someone feels about murder or my ice cream choices aren't a matter of objectivity, but subjectivity. If you did care very strongly that I love chocolate ice cream, you wouldn't be wrong or right to do so. If you cared more that I ate some chocolate ice cream than you cared that I murdered a person to get it, you wouldn't be wrong or right either.

Of course people are less likely to care about my ice cream choices, it isn't a common thing for people to care about, but the amount of people who care, and how strongly they feel about it doesn't have a bearing on whether or not they're right or wrong to feel the way they do.

Why we care more depends on how much it effects us. Our feelings are meant to help us interact with reality (that's what they are for). When they are working as in this case, we are accurately assigning more emphasis to the things that matter to us as human beings more, ie, those things of more objective consequence.

We don't exist in a world where people take trivialities such as iced cream preference as seriously as we do murder because our morality, and our value systems interact with reality and have objective components and inputs, and thus morality, how it really operates, is based upon objective facts of our situations and our persons.

I disagree on how you've been talking about value. It's a verb, sure. But I value ice cream, and the fact that I value it drives me to act. The act isn't the valuing. To value something is to have a feeling for something, nothing more. How strong that feeling is affects what behavior might result from it.

And I think that action is the only reason to have morality in the first place, otherwise it would just be a set of ideas you had.

I think how you act displays your actual values, in that if you act contrary to what you believe your morality is (which happens plenty), that the actions you take are what you truly value.

When I say you value iced cream I mean that you take action to value iced cream, I don't really need to evaluate it beyond that. It can be based upon feelings or reasons intellect ect, it's not just about your feelings.

So, you might value say, your health, and consider good nutrition a key aspect of your health. Then take actions to make sure you consume a balanced diet. This value might or might not take precedence over your everyday feelings, even push aside a desire to binge eat iced cream (that you also find delicious and value as inexperience you enjoy).

So, here I can make my own judgements on your values if I see you regularly eating a balanced diet as a result of valuing your health, or if I see that you have a serious problem with binge eating iced cream and are overweight, then I can see that you value the experience of eating iced cream instead of your health.

The person that values binge eating iced cream above their health can certainly have those values, they can feel right to them, but then they can't turn around to me and say they ultimately value their health because that is how they "feel", it doesn't work like that but people could actually do exactly that, if that is what they feel is true and they feel like they should be valuing their health and that they really like the feeling of eating iced cream too.

All of this is still about morality and values though, and here I can say that I think this persons stated value system is incorrect with respect their actions.
 
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Ken-1122

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That particular fact is that people tend to have that particular value, making it an objective fact.
The existence of the value might be objective, yeah a value does exist! But the value itself is subjective.
Actions are facts.
I’m talking about the action of thought; which is not always based on facts.
Morality comes from our interpretation of the world around us and who we are as a person.
You keep saying that, but it doesn't make it true! Unless positive or negative judgment is involved, there is no morality involved.
I don't think reality or facts can be divorced from morality, instead I think morality is steeped in them.
That doesn’t make moral beliefs based on fact.
No, your values are a way that you deal with reality as it exists.
Just one of many ways we deal with reality as it exists.
The consequences of abortion make that part of our moral judgement objective.
The consequences of abortion (no longer pregnant) is not a moral issue; the moral issue is judging HOW you arrived at those consequences.
No just no. Actions are what we ultimately do with our moral judgement
There is a big difference between judgment and action. Often we judge something as wrong yet we do nothing about it. Judgment does not always lead to action.
 
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Ken-1122

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Because it is something we can demonstrate the way we demonstrate all facts.
Again; please provide an example of a moral issue being demonstrated as good or bad like all facts. And don’t try that “good is what is helpful to mankind” because morality is not defined that way; thats just something some guy made up. I could just as easily claim good as what is helpful to mother earth regardless of mankind” and my claim would be just as legitimate as his
I simply take the position that how you act is part of your morality.
No; a lot of people know right yet they still do wrong, be it due to a fit of anger, outside pressure, etc. not everybody will always live up to their own standards.
That the world you live in is part of your moral reasoning and I don't accept the idea that either can be truly separate and thus wholly subjective.
Your moral reasoning is a result of your thoughts. All thoughts are subjective.
What you are saying is that I can't demonstrate a particular set of values wrong, and I agree in principle.

What I am saying is that I CAN speak to someone about their actions to deal with what someones actual values are (since they are capable of being unaware of which values they are really prioritizing and upholding) and I CAN talk to them about the consequences of their actions or planned course of action as it might be something they in principle would want to avoid.

So, I can have a discussion with someone based upon whatever common ground we can reach because peoples morality comes from their experiences which are objective, they operate in reality which is objective, and their actions are objective and their reasoning from moral to action is also accessible.

And yes I can absolutely call someones morality simply incorrect if their actions justified by their morality don't lead to whatever they actually value.
Yes! You can speak to someone and change their mind convincing they were wrong and that you are right. IOW convincing them to think differently. Again all thoughts are subjective.
 
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Moral Orel

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It is a false statement, not in accordance with fact or truth, or incorrect.

To the bold, no it doesn't. You are incorrect because your proposition that there can be a most delicious iced cream flavor is a category error. Your statement is incorrect because it doesn't mean anything.

Saying the statement P "Chocolate is the most delicious iced cream flavor", is incorrect, or false means it's antithesis ~P is true that "Chocolate is not the most delicious iced cream flavor".

Which doesn't imply that there is an iced cream flavor that is the most delicious. It is incorrect because there isn't one, it's a category error.

I can draw the squarest circle. < Incorrect F
I can not draw the squarest circle < Correct T

The negation of a impossibility is a truth (outside of some technical semantic based language issues).
Fair enough.
Why we care more depends on how much it effects us. Our feelings are meant to help us interact with reality (that's what they are for). When they are working as in this case, we are accurately assigning more emphasis to the things that matter to us as human beings more, ie, those things of more objective consequence.

We don't exist in a world where people take trivialities such as iced cream preference as seriously as we do murder because our morality, and our value systems interact with reality and have objective components and inputs, and thus morality, how it really operates, is based upon objective facts of our situations and our persons.
How do you measure consequence? What are the units that you can say there is "more objective consequence" for this or that. If my neighbor is murdered, what measurable consequence is there for me?
And I think that action is the only reason to have morality in the first place, otherwise it would just be a set of ideas you had.

I think how you act displays your actual values, in that if you act contrary to what you believe your morality is (which happens plenty), that the actions you take are what you truly value.

When I say you value iced cream I mean that you take action to value iced cream, I don't really need to evaluate it beyond that. It can be based upon feelings or reasons intellect ect, it's not just about your feelings.
Nah, just feelings. If I am incapable of taking action, I can still value something. If I'm too poor to purchase a pint of chocolate ice cream, I still value it even if I don't want it bad enough to steal it. I value it by simply desiring to eat some.
So, you might value say, your health, and consider good nutrition a key aspect of your health. Then take actions to make sure you consume a balanced diet. This value might or might not take precedence over your everyday feelings, even push aside a desire to binge eat iced cream (that you also find delicious and value as inexperience you enjoy).

So, here I can make my own judgements on your values if I see you regularly eating a balanced diet as a result of valuing your health, or if I see that you have a serious problem with binge eating iced cream and are overweight, then I can see that you value the experience of eating iced cream instead of your health.

The person that values binge eating iced cream above their health can certainly have those values, they can feel right to them, but then they can't turn around to me and say they ultimately value their health because that is how they "feel", it doesn't work like that but people could actually do exactly that, if that is what they feel is true and they feel like they should be valuing their health and that they really like the feeling of eating iced cream too.

All of this is still about morality and values though, and here I can say that I think this persons stated value system is incorrect with respect their actions.
Mmmm.... I don't think so. I agree that we can look at a person's behavior and make an educated guess about their values. But if I say I value health, and then binge ice cream, what you can tell from that is that I don't value health more than I value ice cream. My claim is incorrect, but that doesn't mean I have the incorrect values. If I honestly don't know that binging ice cream is bad for me, then you can say that my actions are the incorrect choices if I want to achieve my values. You can't ever say I value the incorrect thing.
 
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durangodawood

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...What you are saying is that I can't demonstrate a particular set of values wrong, and I agree in principle....
Our values of health & material security (and some others) arent wrong/right. They are just natural facts about humans.

Its would be like saying having 2 eyes is "morally right".
 
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The existence of the value might be objective, yeah a value does exist! But the value itself is subjective.

I’m talking about the action of thought; which is not always based on facts.

You keep saying that, but it doesn't make it true! Unless positive or negative judgment is involved, there is no morality involved.

That doesn’t make moral beliefs based on fact.

Just one of many ways we deal with reality as it exists.

The consequences of abortion (no longer pregnant) is not a moral issue; the moral issue is judging HOW you arrived at those consequences.

There is a big difference between judgment and action. Often we judge something as wrong yet we do nothing about it. Judgment does not always lead to action.
Well stated. Nice and simple
 
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durangodawood

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The existence of the value might be objective, yeah a value does exist! But the value itself is subjective....
Wait....

Whats the precise difference between the existence of something and "the something itself"?
 
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Kylie

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Wait....

Whats the precise difference between the existence of something and "the something itself"?

For example, the fact that a movie was given a rating by a particular critic is an objective fact. But the rating the critic gave the movie is entirely subjective.
 
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Ken-1122

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For example, the fact that a movie was given a rating by a particular critic is an objective fact. But the rating the critic gave the movie is entirely subjective.
I was going to respond to him, but you beat me to it; I couldn't have explained it better myself.
 
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durangodawood

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For example, the fact that a movie was given a rating by a particular critic is an objective fact. But the rating the critic gave the movie is entirely subjective.
Weird that we don't have people expounding all sorts of different subjective opinions about whether it's generally ok to murder your neighbor.
 
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Ken-1122

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Weird that we don't have people expounding all sorts of different subjective opinions about whether it's generally ok to murder your neighbor.
Actually the subjective opinions discussed would be what constitutes murder, and is it okay to do it to your neighbor. (consider a discussion of abortion or death with dignity for example)
 
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Kylie

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Weird that we don't have people expounding all sorts of different subjective opinions about whether it's generally ok to murder your neighbor.

Ah yes, funny how whenever anyone wants to claim that there is an objective morality they always go to extreme cases like murder or rape.

If there really was an objective morality, it would work just fine when it comes to punishments for disobedient children, but nah, they always go for the murder and rape.
 
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durangodawood

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Ah yes, funny how whenever anyone wants to claim that there is an objective morality they always go to extreme cases like murder or rape.

If there really was an objective morality, it would work just fine when it comes to punishments for disobedient children, but nah, they always go for the murder and rape.
No one is claiming "an objective morality". I think I made my actual claim clear. Like 20 times already in this thread.
 
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durangodawood

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Actually the subjective opinions discussed would be what constitutes murder, and is it okay to do it to your neighbor. (consider a discussion of abortion or death with dignity for example)
Of course evolving morals involve our personal senses of how to balance conflicting values. Nothing controversial about that.
 
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durangodawood

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Ah yes, funny how whenever anyone wants to claim that there is an objective morality they always go to extreme cases like murder or rape.

If there really was an objective morality, it would work just fine when it comes to punishments for disobedient children, but nah, they always go for the murder and rape.
Why funny? The obvious case makes the point clear. Why would I select cases where personal opinion or culturally contingency are also major influences?
 
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Ken-1122

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No one is claiming "an objective morality". I think I made my actual claim clear. Like 20 times already in this thread.
When you entered the conversation I was having back on post #208, the person I was discussing with was claiming morality was objective; your input gave the impression you supported his view.
 
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Ken-1122

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Of course evolving morals involve our personal senses of how to balance conflicting values. Nothing controversial about that.
Actually the idea of "evolving morals" is very controversial to the person I was discussing with when you entered the conversation
 
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Kylie

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No one is claiming "an objective morality". I think I made my actual claim clear. Like 20 times already in this thread.

You sure seemed to be arguing that subjective morality doesn't work by claiming that just about everyone has the same view on things like murder.
 
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Kylie

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Why funny? The obvious case makes the point clear. Why would I select cases where personal opinion or culturally contingency are also major influences?

Because that's the very nature of subjectivity.
 
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