At what point does 'Untrue' become 'True'?

[Gracchus]

How would martyrs make a difference?

Some folks think that the number of people who die in a cause automatically justify the cause. For instance, the number of people killed in Hiroshima and Nagasaki by the bombs justify Japan's role in WWII and make heroes of the soldiers who sacked Nanking.

 

[Davian]

Does this "testing" differ significantly from the process of self-deception?

Yup. You just have to know how to do the tests. The results of the tests are undeniable. Only a person who is deceived would deny them.

Do they differ in some measurable way? Explain.

 

[Doveaman]

Do they differ in some measurable way? Explain.

Yes they do. But it's the type of tests you have to do yourself to experience results in some measurable way. It's unfortunate you don't know how to do them.

 

[AV1611VET]

How would martyrs make a difference?

Wow -- just wow.

Stephen's martyrdom was instrumental in Saul's conversion.

And as Tertullian put it: "The blood of martyrs is the seed of the Church."

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

There is a force at work that astronomers cannot detect the cause. They call that cause dark-matter. I call it God-energy.

Can you provide evidence it is dark-matter and not God-energy?

Can you provide evidence it is God-energy and not dark-matter?

What would that even mean? Isn't every bit of energy in the universe from God . . . anyway?

What God does all the time in the same manner we call the laws of science.

What God does on rare occasions for His purposes we call a miracle.

Its all God.

 

[Davian]

Yes they do. But it's the type of tests you have to do yourself to experience results in some measurable way. It's unfortunate you don't know how to do them.

And you don't know either? If you did, you should be able to explain how these tests are measurable. What units do you use?

 

[Davian]

Wow -- just wow.

Stephen's martyrdom was instrumental in Saul's conversion.

And as Tertullian put it: "The blood of martyrs is the seed of the Church."

The existence of (or stories of) martyrs is not an indication of the veracity of religious claims. That they believed something to be true does not make it true.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Um, nope.

You seem very deep into denial. How does one talk themselves into
say, the burning bush? Answered prayer?

Have you even read the bible?

Probably the same way as one talks himself into detonating in a public place.
Or burning witches.
Or stoning adulterers to death.
Or believing that the world is only 6000 years old.


Self-delusion. Not exactly an uncommon practice I'm afraid...

 

[DogmaHunter]

How about when one prays for a sign from God and a light source immediately appears where there should be none?

I'm afraid you are going to have to be more specific...

What do you mean with "where there should be none"? Like a fire on the bottom of the ocean? Or more like a flashlight on your nightstand instead of in the drawer?

Or when prayer is specifically answered? Luck?

Well, that would depend. What was the prayer?
To win the lottery?
Or to have an amputee's legs grow back overnight?

Or the many prayers for safety of missionaries and they actually see angels protecting them? Mass delusion?

It's not like mass delusion is not a known phenomena. You even seem to know about it.

Yes, some prayers are not according to God's will so they don't get
answered. Do you expect every idle prayer to be answered?

I'ld expect to see some consistency and/or some trend.
Every test there has ever been, showed that "answered" prayers are statistically indistinguishable from sheer randomness.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Wow -- just wow.

Stephen's martyrdom was instrumental in Saul's conversion.

And as Tertullian put it: "The blood of martyrs is the seed of the Church."

You must be really impressed with al-qaida, IS, etc.

 

[AV1611VET]

Many, many people claimed to see Elvis after he died.

Guess what? Elvis is still dead.

Are there any I-seen-Elvis martyrs, that you know of?

The existence of (or stories of) martyrs is not an indication of the veracity of religious claims. That they believed something to be true does not make it true.

Until I hear of I-seen-Elvis martyrs, I'll subordinate I-seen-Elvis believers to Christians any day.

And for the record, even if there were martyrs for Elvis, Elvis-spotters have a long way to go before they catch up to Christians.

They would need some pretty hefty things to compare, such as:

1. Their own country.
2. A major empire that tried to suppress them.
3. A major religion who masqueraded as them, yet martyred them.
4. Elvis biography, written independently by at least 40 men over a period of 1500 years, on three continents, in three languages, containing at least 66 independent books, made into a single biography.
5. Time, officially divided into pre-I-seen-Elvis and post-I-seen-Elvis.
6. A national holiday, recognizing Elvis as alive.
7. The attention of atheists, agnostics, yet [supposedly] ignored by scientists, who happen to make "discoveries" that go against everything Elvis ever said or did -- right down to the jots & tittles.

Then, and only then, I might consider a modicum of weight to their martyrs -- (but I doubt it).

 

[AV1611VET]

You must be really impressed with al-qaida, IS, etc.

A lot more than I-seen-Elvis spotters; yet not nearly as much as Christian martyrs.

But for the record, who martyred al-Qaeda followers?

 

[florida2]

Wow -- just wow.

Stephen's martyrdom was instrumental in Saul's conversion.

And as Tertullian put it: "The blood of martyrs is the seed of the Church."

There are plenty of Muslim martys. Does that make Islam true?

 

[AV1611VET]

There are plenty of Muslim martys. Does that make Islam true?

No.

And for the record, why do you guys dwell on commonalities between Christianity & Islam, but refuse to dwell on the one commonality between our "38,000" denominations: IN THE BEGINNING, GOD?

 

[DerelictJunction]

No.

And for the record, why do you guys dwell on commonalities between Christianity & Islam, but refuse to dwell on the one commonality between our "38,000" denominations: IN THE BEGINNING, GOD?

Because Muslims believe that too and you refuse to dwell on that commonality.

 

[AV1611VET]

Because Muslims believe that too and you refuse to dwell on that commonality.

Not for the same reason you guys do, though.

You guys bury your heads in the sand about it.

We don't.

We address it right up front.

Their God is a false idol.

 

[AV1611VET]

Spoken like a true Muslim.

I don't think you'd know true Muslims if they built one of the largest mosques in Europe in your capital.

In fact, I bet you think the ones who used our Twin Towers for hangars were "radical Muslims", don't you?

Our newsmen do.

 

[DerelictJunction]

Not for the same reason you guys do, though.

You guys bury your heads in the sand about it.

We don't.

We address it right up front.

Their God is a false idol.

As the Muslims would say about you.

You do, however, use that commonality to deflect the conversation away from the HOW (evolution vs Literal Genesis Creationism), to the WHO (nature vs God). Then you claim that commonality supports your belief of Literal Genesis Creationism, when you know it does not.

 

[Gracchus]

Their God is a false idol.

And yours is a book, a graven image. I think it is amusing that religious people who disagree about almost everything in religion, all think that God agrees with them. I, for one, would have several disagreements with the Abrahamic god.

Of course as a panentheist, my theology is determined by reality, not wishful thinking, the search for truth the only commandment, and the only theological language I recognize as legitimate is mathematics.

 

[AV1611VET]

I, for one, would have several disagreements with the Abrahamic god.

Get in line -- there's a shrewdness of scientists in front of you.

Of course as a panentheist, my theology is determined by reality,

So true theology = true reality? or does "your theology" = "your reality"?