At What Point Do You Think You Are Truly Saved?

Saint Steven said:

I suppose if you anticipate going back and forth with someone for a bit you could bring it all with you.

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Yeah, I do that sometimes. (If I understand what you mean.)

Mark Quayle said:

Yeah, I do that sometimes. (If I understand what you mean.)

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There's a first time for everything. lol

Mark Quayle said:

To your point there, no, not really. Some things are so natural to our thinking that we don't bother to say them. Even scientists often don't realize how many assumptions they make in coming to their conclusions. (For example, in what they consider to be a totally isolated science experiment, they may never even take gravity into account.)

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I think I have to agree with you on this, BUT the argument can be turned around to say: even if (this is a big IF) the scripture doesn't say specifically that Jesus died for everyone, it's not mentioned since it's so natural he did.

Mark Quayle said:

To avoid saying, "huh?" I'll just say "thanks". I can split the text I reply to ok, by selecting some part and replying to it, but when I try to find it again to select more, I lose the whole field in which the quoted text and my reply were written.

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Maybe just copy everything into a word document, write your comments and copy/paste it into the thread?

RickReads said:

The man without the garment was missing the righteousness of Jesus which gives us our covering. Had nothing to do with your works for salvation theology. You think you put on your own garment? Good luck with that.

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God provides the garment thru the gospel and the guidance of the Holy Spirit but it’s up to me to choose whether or not to put in on (walk in the Spirit). For this reason no one will have any excuse for not being properly dressed when He returns.

“"But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes, and he said to him, 'Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?' And the man was speechless.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭22:11-12‬ ‭NASB

Mark Quayle said:

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Isaiah 53 is not by any means supporting LA. I think the point here is that the atonement is not only for "my people" the nation of the Jews, but for every nation, also gentile people.

Isaiah 52:15
Thus He will sprinkle many nations,

Isaiah 53:11
My Servant, will justify "the" many (nations)
As He will bear their iniquities.

zoidar said:

I think I have to agree with you on this, BUT the argument can be turned around to say: even if (this is a big IF) the scripture doesn't say specifically that Jesus died for everyone, it's not mentioned since it's so natural he did.

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This should settle it.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

Yes the atonement is sufficient for all(the world) but only efficient for some ie. (the elect). Those are the ones He predestined in Ephesians 1 and Romans 8.

hope this helps !!!

Jesus is YHWH said:

Yes the atonement is sufficient for all(the world) but only efficient for some ie. (the elect). Those are the ones He predestined in Ephesians 1 and Romans 8.

hope this helps !!!

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What's the point of sufficiency when there is a lack of efficiency?

Like setting up a secret banquet for 500 people and then inviting only 5. (3 of whom accept)

The three attendees might rightfully ask, "Where is everyone?" To which the host would say, "The other two couldn't make it." (awkward pause in dining) "Say what?"

BNR32FAN said:

God provides the garment thru the gospel and the guidance of the Holy Spirit but it’s up to me to choose whether or not to put in on (walk in the Spirit). For this reason no one will have any excuse for not being properly dressed when He returns.

“"But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes, and he said to him, 'Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?' And the man was speechless.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭22:11-12‬ ‭NASB

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That`s just shuffling cups around. It`s logical to assume the man was wearing his own garments and he was speechless because he thought his own garment was good enough.

"For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven."

Good luck with that.

Saint Steven said:

What's the point of sufficiency when there is a lack of efficiency?

Like setting up a secret banquet for 500 people and then inviting only 5. (3 of whom accept)

The three attendees might rightfully ask, "Where is everyone?" To which the host would say, "The other two couldn't make it." (awkward pause in dining) "Say what?"

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I was just giving you the reformed response and I know its a highly and heated issue of debate.

Mark Quayle said:

Really? As many times as this has been explained and you still insist? I'm thinking you don't even read the responses anymore, at least not until you find something to contradict.

Of course they weren't interested. The unregenerate never are. Irresistible Grace doesn't say Grace is never resisted. Irresistible Grace concerns only the fact that God's regeneration is not something resistible. O

You know, you really ought to do something about that attitude. It does not become you. And it will hurt that much more to change your tune when you find out you are wrong.

Calvinists don't believe that God calls only the Elect, but only the Elect are chosen, called according to that particular special purpose. Where did the guests get their clothes? It doesn't say. If he had the right clothes he woulda shown up in them. It doesn't say who puts them on the guests. If they can do something to merit salvation then it is by works, and NOT GRACE. How much more obvious can that be?

But I'm running short of patience. Later.

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Your playing both sides of the argument. Your saying in one breath that the unregenerate cannot come to Christ then saying that God grants the unregenerate grace to Christ but it’s some kind of different grace in the next breath. There is no such thing as a different kind of grace. What your really saying is that these people who clearly came to Christ and fell away didn’t actually receive grace at all. Romans 2 is a prime example of God’s grace urging people to repent who’s stubbornness is

“Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:4-11‬ ‭NASB

The kindness of God that leads people to repentance is grace. There is no other kind of kindness of God that leads people to repentance. These people have received grace and are still unrepentant. So you can’t say that these people were not regenerative because they didn’t repent because God’s kindness is leading them to repent. The only way God’s kindness can lead them to repentance is if they have been granted a regenerative grace (the ONLY kind of grace that ACTUALLY exists). If you say that they they were not regenerative because God did not bestow upon them a saving grace then your calling Paul a liar by saying that God‘a kindness was not really leading them to repentance. Your theology just does not hold up to scripture.

you don’t understand what a “works salvation” is. A works salvation means we are saved solely based on our works apart from anything else which is impossible. Christ wouldn’t have had to die on the cross if a works salvation were true. Christ had to die on the cross so that we could be saved because the wages of sin is death not works. So no amount of works we could ever do would ever pay for even one single sin. Calvinists crawfish in their theology over and over saying that people can be called to Christ and bestowed grace but were never actually given the opportunity to be saved which is ridiculous. In one breath they’ll say we don’t have to do good works to be saved then in the next breath they’ll say but a person who is saved will do good works. This is madness. It makes absolutely no sense. Either God has granted a person to come to Christ to be saved or He has not. Why would God draw anyone to come to Christ if He never intended for them to have the opportunity for salvation? Why would God bestow grace upon someone who He never intended to receive salvation? Before you ask I’ll go ahead and answer the question why would God draw someone to Christ and bestow grace upon someone whom He knows will not be saved. The reason is simple, when they stand before God they will have no excuse for failing to repent. In Calvin’s theology every single person who stands before God on judgement day will have a very reasonable excuse. They will say I didn’t repent because you didn’t let me. You never gave me the ability or opportunity to repent.

RickReads said:

That`s just shuffling cups around. It`s logical to assume the man was wearing his own garments and he was speechless because he thought his own garment was good enough.

"For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven."

Good luck with that.

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So your saying the King provided the garments to everyone even tho that’s not said in the parable so if that were the case then the man could’ve easily said I didn’t dress properly because you didn’t give me a proper garment to wear. The man wouldn’t have been speechless as if he had no excuse. He would’ve had a perfect excuse if the King had provided garments for everyone else but this man.

Mark Quayle said:

You mean, other than the fact God himself says so?


You mean, other than the fact God himself says so?

So the point stands: God hates some, or at least loves some more than others, no?

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The point was that Romans 9:13 was about Israel and the Edomites not Jacob and Esau. There’s no Old Testament verse that says that God hated Esau. Paul said as it is written. As I pointed out Esau was actually a very blessed man. The Old Testament does however convey that God hated the Edomites and did punish them along with the Moabites who were also descendants of Esau.

BNR32FAN said:

So your saying the King provided the garments to everyone even tho that’s not said in the parable so if that were the case then the man could’ve easily said I didn’t dress properly because you didn’t give me a proper garment to wear. The man wouldn’t have been speechless as if he had no excuse. He would’ve had a perfect excuse if the King had provided garments for everyone else but this man.

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You apparently didn`t pay attention to the parable. The King provided everything for the wedding which would have included the garment of His Righteousness. I`m not sure of your point apart from the fact that you believe you establish your own righteousness. I do get that.

RickReads said:

You apparently didn`t pay attention to the parable. The King provided everything for the wedding which would have included the garment of His Righteousness. I`m not sure of your point apart from the fact that you believe you establish your own righteousness. I do get that.

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“Again he sent out other slaves saying, 'Tell those who have been invited, "Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and my fattened livestock are all butchered and everything is ready; come to the wedding feast."'”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭22:4‬ ‭NASB

I did pay attention because that’s not what was actually written and doesn’t address the situation of the man being speechless when asked why he was not dressed properly. If the king provided the wedding garments to everyone except the man who was pulled aside then he would have a good explanation as to why he was not dressed properly. The man would’ve been able to say because you gave everyone else a garment but you didn’t give me one.

BNR32FAN said:

The man would’ve been able to say because you gave everyone else a garment but you didn’t give me one.

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Wasn't the man supposed to get his own garment before the feast?

BNR32FAN said:

“Again he sent out other slaves saying, 'Tell those who have been invited, "Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and my fattened livestock are all butchered and everything is ready; come to the wedding feast."'”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭22:4‬ ‭NASB

I did pay attention because that’s not what was actually written and doesn’t address the situation of the man being speechless when asked why he was not dressed properly. If the king provided the wedding garments to everyone except the man who was pulled aside then he would have a good explanation as to why he was not dressed properly. The man would’ve been able to say because you gave everyone else a garment but you didn’t give me one.

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Believe what you want. All I can tell you is what the Bible says.

What is the meaning of the Parable of the Wedding Feast? | GotQuestions.org

zoidar said:

Wasn't the man supposed to get his own garment before the feast?

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That`s what the man did. His problem was in not wearing the garment provided by the King.

What is the meaning of the Parable of the Wedding Feast? | GotQuestions.org

RickReads said:

Believe what you want. All I can tell you is what the Bible says.

What is the meaning of the Parable of the Wedding Feast? | GotQuestions.org

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How are you telling me what the Bible says when I’m directly quoting what was actually written? Your not telling me what the Bible says because the Bible does not say that the King provided the wedding garments. Providing a commentary especially from gotquestions.org is completely worthless. Anybody can post anything they want on that website. My 7 year old daughter can post on there all day long.