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At what point do we become responsible for talking against leaders like Trump?

JEBofChristTheLord

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This is a nonsensical statement, IMO. The information is out there, in every Bible, in almost every protestant church, on internet. Believing in it is a totally different issue.
No, believing in it is the only issue. No information can be used, if it is not believed.
 
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1Tonne

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There have been several surveys that actually show that many American Christians have less knowledge of their religion that many non-Christians.

Groups like Barna have also shown the average American Evangelical's understanding of theology is also very poor, so it's not surprising.

Maybe there is a risk of "the blind leading the blind". When I read the Bible and study it in its historical context, I see something quite different from American Evangelicals' assumptions about religion.
You’re absolutely right—I've seen this firsthand in churches as well. When I ask people what the Gospel is, I get a wide range of answers. Some say it's "Jesus," others say it's "the Bible," and some even say it's "being a good person." That’s deeply concerning.

I believe there are a few reasons for this, and here are two key ones:
First, we’ve reduced the “fear of God” to mean only awe or reverence, but the Bible clearly distinguishes godly fear from mere reverence. Hebrews 12:28 says, “Let us serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear.” If the two were the same, the verse would be redundant.
The original Greek for "fear" often includes meanings like trembling, caution, awe-filled dread, and holy submission. It’s not a fear that drives us away from God, but one that humbles us before His holiness and majesty. When this kind of fear is absent from the church, everything else—including the weight of the Gospel—becomes lighter and more casual than it should be.

Second, many churches emphasise the command to “make disciples” but neglect the command to first preach the Gospel. As a result, we come alongside people, form relationships, invite them to church, and begin teaching them how to live the Christian life—but we never clearly explain the Gospel itself.
They may learn to sing worship songs, pray, and even take on leadership roles—all without ever coming to the foot of the cross in repentance and faith. No one told them that Jesus bore the wrath of God in their place. Even if they hear it in a sermon, it may not sink in. So, we fill churches with people who may be disciples of what we do in church, but not followers of Christ. So, not real disciples of Jesus.
This is why Jesus said to "Go and preach the Gospel." Because if they believe and come, then we fill the church with believers who truly want to honour God. But instead, we make disciples of ourselves.
 
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1Tonne

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However, I think that at least the gospel as such, or "how to be saved" is understood well enough by the majority of protestants and taught well in the majority of the protestant churches.
No it is not. Even right now, Ray Comfort and NeedGod.net have been having a big debate over this.
Is it by faith we are saved?
Is it by Grace that we are saved?
Do we have to do good works to be saved?
Does true faith have works?
Can we simply say we believe and continue life as normal?
And other questions.
These are questions that the church debates.
 
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trophy33

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No it is not. Even right now, Ray Comfort and NeedGod.net have been having a big debate over this.
Is it by faith we are saved?
Is it by Grace that we are saved?
Do we have to do good works to be saved?
Does true faith have works?
Can we simply say we believe and continue life as normal?
And other questions.
These are questions that the church debates.
How it works technically may be a mystery. However, how to be practically saved, is simple - believe in Jesus Christ, His death and resurrection. No rocket science, there.

If you think that this is not clear, then how can you actually share the gospel?
 
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1Tonne

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If you think that this is not clear, then how can you actually share the gospel?
The Gospel is not unclear to me.
You were saying that the Gospel is well understood within the church. I was simply pointing out that people in the church often argue about these questions. In truth, in many churches, a lot of people do not understand the Gospel. Especially in churches that specialise in friendship evangelism.
 
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trophy33

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The Gospel is not unclear to me.
You were saying that the Gospel is well understood within the church. I was simply pointing out that people in the church often argue about these questions. In truth, in many churches, a lot of people do not understand the Gospel. Especially in churches that specialise in friendship evangelism.
Gospel is very simple and taught in the most of protestant churches clearly.

Theology behind the gospel and details are debated.
 
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1Tonne

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Gospel is very simple and taught in the most of protestant churches clearly.

Theology behind the gospel and details are debated.
Maybe so in many churches. Sadly, like I said, I have asked believers what the Gospel is and what is needed to be saved, and people don't know.
We need to say the Gospel inside the church and also outside. We should not stay silent, and we should not make up excuses.
 
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trophy33

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We need to say the Gospel inside the church and also outside. We should not stay silent, and we should not make up excuses.
There is hardly a common "we". Everybody has their specific gifts. If you like individual street preaching, fine. I like when the gospel is preached in churches or by churches as an organization. And when these churches are open to public - let the ones who will, come.

Christians can privately share their faith with their close ones and many do. But not wanting to shout on the streets is not making up excuses.
 
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1Tonne

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There is hardly a common "we". Everybody has their specific gifts. If you like individual street preaching, fine. I like when the gospel is preached in churches or by churches as an organization. And when these churches are open to public - let the ones who will, come.

Christians can privately share their faith with their close ones and many do. But not wanting to shout on the streets is not making up excuses.
We don't all have the same giftings, but we have all been called to tell as many people the Gospel as possible.
So, God did make us all different. Some he made to be ears, some he made to be hands, some he made to be a mouth and some he made to be feet.
If you are an ear, listen to people's problems and then tell them the Gospel.
If you are a hand, mow someone's lawn and weed their garden and then tell them the Gospel.
If you are a mouth, teach people and then tell them the Gospel.
If you are feet, walk to the parks or down the street and then tell people the Gospel.

We have different giftings and abilities; with these, we should bring Glory to God. We should not use our gifts as an excuse not to give God glory.
I am a foot. I often choose to go to the parks and give God glory. Sometimes I am a hand, and I share the Gospel. Sometimes I listen to people, and then I tell the Gospel.
We are not all called to be street preachers, but we should all have a desire to say the Gospel to as many people as possible.
 
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rebornfree

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Maybe so in many churches. Sadly, like I said, I have asked believers what the Gospel is and what is needed to be saved, and people don't know.
We need to say the Gospel inside the church and also outside. We should not stay silent, and we should not make up excuses.
Believers don't know?!!! That did surprise me. I thought that you'd asked the general public and they'd given you the 'be a good person' type of replies. Christians not knowing that they need to be saved is worrying. Here, in the UK, some of the mainstream churches teach a 'follow Christ's teachings' message whereas the Evangelical churches preach that we are saved by grace through faith. They are mainly Baptist, Pentecostal or Salvation Army although they can be found in some of the mainstream denominations as well.

I know that we are agreeing that there are various ways of telling people about the Lord and their need for salvation. When you read about the persecutions suffered by Christians in some countries, it makes you realise how blessed we are in Western nations and we need to use our freedom to spread the gospel. How we do it depends on our gifts and what works in the culture we live in and, most importantly, how the Holy Spirit leads us imo.
 
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1Tonne

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When you read about the persecutions suffered by Christians in some countries, it makes you realise how blessed we are in Western nations and we need to use our freedom to spread the gospel.
“If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also." John 15:18-20

I often wonder if the reason many of us are so comfortable, and not persecuted, is because we’ve become so quiet about what we believe. Jesus said that if we follow Him, we will face persecution. He was hated because He exposed the world’s evil deeds in the hope that people would turn and honour God. If we do the same, then the world will likely hate us too.
But sadly, many of us choose silence. The early church wasn’t persecuted because they believed quietly, they were persecuted because they opened their mouths and spoke publicly.

Interestingly, the original meaning of the word martyr is witness; someone who speaks of what they’ve seen, know, or believe. The apostles were called martyrs long before they were killed because they spoke boldly about Jesus. Over time, as more and more believers were killed for being witnesses, the word martyr came to mean someone who dies for their faith. But the root idea remains: they were persecuted because they spoke, not because they stayed silent.

Maybe it’s time for us to speak more openly. If we did, the world might grow less comfortable with us.

In much of the Western world today, the church experiences little real persecution. That should make us pause. Could it be because we’ve become too much like the world, or too quiet to be noticed? Jesus said, “If you were of the world, the world would love its own.” If the world is always at peace with the church, perhaps it’s because we’ve stopped showing we are truly not of it.

Note:
For years, I kept quiet about my faith. People knew I was a Christian, but I rarely shared the Gospel. Eventually, I began to speak more openly, and while some appreciated it, many did not. I’ve experienced real pushback and even persecution for sharing the message of Christ. But it wasn’t until I began to speak that the persecution started. That experience only confirmed to me the truth of Jesus' words.

How we do it depends on our gifts and what works in the culture we live in and, most importantly, how the Holy Spirit leads us imo.
We need to be careful that what you've mentioned—our giftings, cultural sensitivity, and leading of the Holy Spirit—don’t become excuses for not sharing the Gospel. Too often, these become justifications for silence rather than guidance for obedience.

Take spiritual gifts, for example. It’s a common misconception that only those with the “gift of evangelism” are called to speak publicly or share the Gospel. But this isn’t biblical. All believers are commanded to evangelise. Yes, some are better speakers than others, but a person who has the gift of evangelism is to help equip everyone in the church to proclaim the message. The gift is not an excuse to be silent, but a resource to train others. As Scripture says:
“So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up.” — Ephesians 4:11–12

Then there’s the idea that “what works in our culture” should determine how we evangelise. Some say, “Society is different today—people are offended by public preaching. Instead, we should quietly befriend people and invite them to church.” While relationships are valuable, this mindset often reduces evangelism to social niceties, leaving the Gospel unspoken. If no one is proclaiming, then many will never hear. Friendship without truth is not love, and cultural sensitivity must never become Gospel silence.

Finally, some say, “The Holy Spirit hasn’t led me to speak.” But Jesus has already told us to go and preach the Gospel to all creation. The command has already been given. What the Spirit does is empower us to obey. He gives us fire, clarity, and boldness as we go. Scripture is clear:
“But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses...” — Acts 1:8
“All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them... each one heard their own language being spoken.” — Acts 2:1–12
“They were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly.” — Acts 4:31


As Brother Yun once said:
“The church today lacks this. The Holy Spirit descended as a tongue and it is the Spirit that transforms our tongues. The disciples received a message and those that couldn’t talk became preachers. They received power, clarity and boldness and they started preaching the Gospel.”

And as Mark Spence rightly points out:
“Often individuals will say, ‘I am willing to go, should God call me to go, in the meantime, I am going to stay.’ What we need to do is go, but be willing to stay if God calls us to stay. God has already called us to go.”

We don’t need another command from the Holy Spirit, we need obedience. The Gospel must be proclaimed. If we don’t speak, who will?
 
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rebornfree

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I often wonder if the reason many of us are so comfortable, and not persecuted, is because we’ve become so quiet about what we believe. Jesus said that if we follow Him, we will face persecution. He was hated because He exposed the world’s evil deeds in the hope that people would turn and honour God. If we do the same, then the world will likely hate us too.
But sadly, many of us choose silence. The early church wasn’t persecuted because they believed quietly, they were persecuted because they opened their mouths and spoke publicly.
Well I've wondered that too. Although I don't think that we are without some persecution in the West, but it's not, as far as I'm aware, the violent sort of persecution which both the early church and the current church in certain places (often, but not exclusively, where there are extreme forms of Islam) suffer from. I think the reasons may be twofold. Maybe the church is being too quiet; maybe our nations would not tolerate violent persecutions. My previous MP, who was a Christian, was appointed (by Boris Johnson, I think) to work to prevent/protect people from persecution due to faith, but she lost her seat in the last election.

Most born-again Christians want to spread the gospel and do so through various ministries. I'm not saying don't go out and preach; far from it. However it is not the only way and sometimes, when it's done wrongly, it can turn people away who would otherwise have been interested if they had been invited to the church and formed friendships, learnt about Jesus and come to salvation that way. It also gives them a chance to hear more about Jesus's life and preaching. My preference for that is probably influenced by my own experience of loving Jesus long before knowing about salvation.

I'm going to bow out of the discussion now as I still have to get on with the writing I believe the Lord wants me to do. The discussion has diverged from your OP, but as it's your thread I don't feel guilty about that! God bless.
 
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1Tonne

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I'm going to bow out of the discussion now as I still have to get on with the writing I believe the Lord wants me to do. The discussion has diverged from your OP, but as it's your thread I don't feel guilty about that! God bless.
It has diverged, but that is fine with me. I have a way bigger passion for the Gospel being spread than politics.
 
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The_Mantis

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These news channels are just slandering president Trump daily causing absolute hatred for Trump, anyone who voted for him and Elon/DOGE. How can that even be legal? Isn’t slander illegal? I mean they lie, literally say things about these people that is not true at all. They should be prosecuted. It’s destroying the country.
 
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The Barbarian

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These news channels are just slandering president Trump daily causing absolute hatred for Trump, anyone who voted for him and Elon/DOGE. How can that even be legal? Isn’t slander illegal? I mean they lie, literally say things about these people that is not true at all. They should be prosecuted. It’s destroying the country.
If it was a felony to merely lie about someone, Trump would be in prison. However, if it's defamitory, one can sue. For example, Trump slandered a woman he had sexually assaulted and it cost him millions. He falsely accused a group of black men of doing what he did, and the are now suing him. He's going to lose again. So there are consequences.

However, it must be untrue. So, if someone says that Trump is a criminal who sexually assaulted a woman, he can't do anything about that, because it's true.
 
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The_Mantis

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Hmm so for example, the news saying that Trump is going to outlaw abortion and take away women’s rights was completely untrue. He didn’t do that. But people are still so worried about it that they will go online and scream and cry about it. So that lie was so deep into these peoples psyche that even when that didn’t materialize, at all, they still believe it to be true. That right there should be illegal.

I hate politics. It’s so childish. And why do the left hate so much? I first saw it with Bush. I thought that was bad until Trump ran. Holy smokes these crazed mouth foaming violent people just came out of the woodwork. Burning down car dealerships. Keying Teslas. Remember the BLM stuff? Good Lord this world is done. Society is awful.

Full fledged mental disorders are on full display, online for everyone to see now. And they are on the left. Just go on x or tictoc. It’s nuts. Blue haired people screaming at the camera. Like lots and lots of them lol. So stupid.
 
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The Barbarian

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Hmm so for example, the news saying that Trump is going to outlaw abortion and take away women’s rights was completely untrue. He didn’t do that.
He can't, of course. But I don't see the press saying he will. He certainly has done what he could, but it's not something up to him.

I hate politics. It’s so childish. And why do the left hate so much?
You mean like the guys who beat police officers on Jan 6? That kind of hate? Plenty to go around. The thing is, that on the right, their guy is now the leader.

Remember the BLM stuff?
Lots of people, mostly white supremacists, tried to disrupt those protests. But I don't remember BLM members being caught doing anything like killing police, firing weapons into police stations, torching stores, etc. Would you like me to show you some examples of who was trying to derail those protests?

Full fledged mental disorders are on full display, online for everyone to see now.
Trump's been through a lot. His pal, Howard Stern accurately predicted that being president would be bad for his mental health. I don't know if he's technically mentally ill. But something terrible has happened to his mind. It now wanders to the point that he can't keep a sentence together, and he's filled with anger and fear.

And yeah, some of that on the far left, too.
 
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1Tonne

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and he's filled with anger and fear.
To be honest, this sounds like you. Stop watching the news channels you watch because they seem to be shaping you to always look for the worst in people. Yes, Trump has done some bad things, but you also need to acknowledge the massive amount of good that he has done. So, please spend the next couple of hours watching Trump's joint address to Congress on March 4th. This will tell you many, many good things that Trump has done, and hopefully, you will become a happier person because of it.
 
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