at my wits end

[Risen Tree]

faeriemom, it's good to hear that talking this out is helping you. Hang in there and do the right thing, for your children especially.

ukok, forgive me for being blunt, but I can't believe that you just said that. The point is for people in a relationship to understand who the other person is, regardless of whether they sit down and talk about it. faeriemom's husband may be the kind of person capable of intense romance who rarely verbalizes it, and her posts state that this is a major reason why they are breaking up. When divorce is imminent, all must be devoted to restoring the relationship, and part of this devotion involves driving to the heart of the problem. This fundamental problem appears to be an old-fashioned personality conflict, which she needs to understand.

 

[ukok]

faeriemom, it's good to hear that talking this out is helping you. Hang in there and do the right thing, for your children especially.

ukok, forgive me for being blunt, but I can't believe that you just said that. The point is for people in a relationship to understand who the other person is, regardless of whether they sit down and talk about it. faeriemom's husband may be the kind of person capable of intense romance who rarely verbalizes it, and her posts state that this is a major reason why they are breaking up. When divorce is imminent, all must be devoted to restoring the relationship, and part of this devotion involves driving to the heart of the problem. This fundamental problem appears to be an old-fashioned personality conflict, which she needs to understand.

RT,

I am trying hard to ascertain just what you have a problem with, but i shall attempt to respond anyway.

I have not said that it is not important to be aware of the personality of the person with whom one is involved with ( it would be kind of hard not to, y'know), but i have said, at this stage in a couples relationship, when there seems little that is keeping them together, and communication is zilch, 'knowing' what your partners personality type is, is not going to aid the situation a great deal, in my HO. The lady who started this thread has known her husband for years already, in part, his lack of communication even on this most important of issues, seem's to have caused her considerable despair.

I feel very much for faeriemom, because i have known something of the difficulties of which she has outlined briefly. But as i have also asked in an earlier post, is this relationship really over for her, or is serving papers on her husband, a 'shake up tactic' because she has 'had it' with the way that the relationship is going. I notice from faeriemom's most recent reply, that she had indeed hoped that this would 'shake him up', so to speak, unfortunately, this does not seem to have had the much hoped for effect.

It may be that somehow, faeriemom and her husband can still find a way of getting through this difficult time, and i hope that they do, but i also hope that if they do continue with their marriage, her husband dedicates some time to understanding his wife's needs and the kind of person that 'she' is.

 

[ukok]

I agree ukok. It has been a very hard day to say the least. I told my 12 year old. I haven't told my 4 year old yet. I think I'll wait til I can talk about it without crying. I don't want him to see me cry. we have an 8 month old as well. He always worked second shift so they didn't see him much thru the week anyway. I got his diploma and some different stuff together for him and called and told him he could come get it after work if he wanted. He said,,,,"Tonight?? Nahhh i might come tomorrow sometime..." Hmm.. i think that clinched it for me. God did not tell me to divorce him. I feel like i still love him very dearly and my heart is ripping apart. All i want is for him to show me love and some sort of effort. I suppose I was compelled to give him papers because i WAS hoping for a wake up call for him, but if it doesn't happen, maybe God wants it this way. He will lead me...I will be submissive and not take anymore steps. I will wait and watch and learn. I will pray for guidance and peace. Thanks everyone, you don't know how much this is helping me.
Scottie

I'm so sorry that you are feeling so much pain. I know that it hurts to have given with absolutely every fibre of your being, and to still have all the love, dedication and effort, rejected.

I know that it is hard, especially with the children being so young, but you are going to get through this somehow, and you are going to summon the courage from deep inside yourself, through the grace of the Lord, and you will be the best mother that you can be. I know that you don't want to cry, but sometimes, you can't hide that pain, and I know from personal experience, that sometimes childrens vivid imaginations lead them to believe all sorts of terrible things. for example, when I was heartbroken with pain, i used to wait for my children to go to bed and than i would come downstairs and cry into a cushion so that they would not hear the wracking sobs, or i would go to bed at night and cover my head with a pillow so that they would not hear their mummy breakeing her heart. But they did still hear me, and they would come downstairs or into my room, wanting to know what was going on, was mummy ill?, was something happening to mummy?

Of course, having said that, you know your own children better than anyone else knows them, and only you can know when would be the best time to approach matters with them and whether or not you want to allow them to see you cry. I don't seek to tell you what to do in any way, because we are all so very different. I just thought i'd give you a different perspective on things, if that's ok. I found that on one or two occassions when my children caught me crying, i didn't cover up, i just explained that we were all going through a difficult time, and reassured them that mummy and daddy still loved them and that we would get through this. I think on more than one occassion we all just hugged and cried together, it really helped them, i think, to feel that they were allowed to let out their own pent up emotions too.

When I read the part about your husband being 'inconvenienced' by calling around to collect some of his things, i have to admit, it made me simmer a little! You have so much pain to deal with, you have your children to care for, you need desparately to know whether or not he wants to continue to share his life with you, or whether it really is over between you, and what does he say, "Nah...I might come tomorrow sometime". Speaks volumes, doesn't it!

I'm so sorry that you have to go through this.

 

[Risen Tree]

RT,

I am trying hard to ascertain just what you have a problem with, but i shall attempt to respond anyway.

I have not said that it is not important to be aware of the personality of the person with whom one is involved with ( it would be kind of hard not to, y'know), but i have said, at this stage in a couples relationship, when there seems little that is keeping them together, and communication is zilch, 'knowing' what your partners personality type is, is not going to aid the situation a great deal, in my HO. The lady who started this thread has known her husband for years already, in part, his lack of communication even on this most important of issues, seem's to have caused her considerable despair.

I feel very much for faeriemom, because i have known something of the difficulties of which she has outlined briefly. But as i have also asked in an earlier post, is this relationship really over for her, or is serving papers on her husband, a 'shake up tactic' because she has 'had it' with the way that the relationship is going. I notice from faeriemom's most recent reply, that she had indeed hoped that this would 'shake him up', so to speak, unfortunately, this does not seem to have had the much hoped for effect.

It may be that somehow, faeriemom and her husband can still find a way of getting through this difficult time, and i hope that they do, but i also hope that if they do continue with their marriage, her husband dedicates some time to understanding his wife's needs and the kind of person that 'she' is.

When someone is in a stressful situation, as is the case of faeriemom and her husband, the real self will come out, and it is impossible to mask or guise this true self. The personality is that true inner person, who somebody really is. This is the person that must be dealt with in times of trial, not the fake persona. Asking someone not to diagnose someone's personality that another attempts to be friends with is like a doctor's failing to ascertain a patient's blood type before a blood transfusion. Blood types A, B, AB, and O all react in fundamentally different ways when new blood is introduced into the system.

If faeriemom and her husband fail to understand who both of them are in Christ, they might as well get the divorce tomorrow. This is a very cynical way to view this situation, to be sure, and is probably shaking up faeriemom to read this, but we might as well call this for what it is: Failure. Divorce is failure. It is failure to trust each other, failure to trust themselves, and above all, failure to trust God. God has mysterious but beautiful ways of making evil turn into good. To divide what God has brought together is to mock Him on His abilities to turn water into wine.

faeriemom, I do not know who you are, nor do I know exactly what you are going through. I am utterly clueless as to how tough life has been for you during these difficult times. The best I can do is to offer you the truth. Believe me, the truth will sting you. It will cut you up. You must ask yourself, however, is that temporal pain worth the incredible healing powers that will come over you once you reconcile this deep wound? If not, I'll bow out and begin praying for your children, for they may be scarred for life because of what is about to happen. But if so, let's get started. Let's let God turn some sewer water into sparkling wine.

 

[cynjo59]

I cried when I read that he told you he loved you- I hope you make very certain that he knows divorce is NOT what you really want, that you did what you did in an effort to somehow shake things up and improve your marriage. My feeling is that this man loves you very deeply and is probably stunned as well as hurt at the steps you felt you had to take. Obviously it is hard (for whatever reason) for him to express himself in this area but at least you know he does love you and that you still love him. Our God is a miracle worker-and I believe He is going to demonstrate that to you and your husband in an awesome way.

 

[ukok]

This is a very cynical way to view this situation, to be sure, and is probably shaking up faeriemom to read this, but we might as well call this for what it is: Failure. Divorce is failure. It is failure to trust each other, failure to trust themselves, and above all, failure to trust God. God has mysterious but beautiful ways of making evil turn into good. To divide what God has brought together is to mock Him on His abilities to turn water into wine.

QUOTE]

1. we'll leave it up to faeriemom to ascertain whether or not my comments are 'shaking her up a bit' shall we...i don't really see that it's your call to attempt to suppose what effects my posts have on the lady.

2. Well, if divorce = failure , you don't know much about relationships and what might lead to such an unfortunate outcome. Am I a failure because i am a divorcee? Oops, another man telling me i'm damaged goods, big suprise


you know, i had originally written more in response but reconsidered and deleted it because it can all be summed up with this >.

 

[Norah]

2. Well, if divorce = failure , you don't know much about relationships and what might lead to such an unfortunate outcome. Am I a failure because i am a divorcee? Oops, another man telling me i'm damaged goods, big suprise

Saying that a situation (like a marriage) has failed does not mean the same thing as calling a person a failure. That's not what RisingTree's words said. YOU are not a failure and it doesn't seem that anyone on this post feels that way. The damaged goods thing - obviously you have been hurt by comments made by another man. Hearing such a comment must hurt and I'm sorry you have to deal w/ how that must make you feel. It's important, however, to be careful not to project that on other people. Just because RisingTree is male, and having opposing views on the topic doesn't mean he feels the same way as this other male in your life.

The thing I got out of the comments - If a marriage doesn't work out, without sugarcoating it - doesn't that technically mean it failed to survive?

 

[ukok]

Saying that a situation (like a marriage) has failed does not mean the same thing as calling a person a failure. That's not what RisingTree's words said. YOU are not a failure and it doesn't seem that anyone on this post feels that way. The damaged goods thing - obviously you have been hurt by comments made by another man. Hearing such a comment must hurt and I'm sorry you have to deal w/ how that must make you feel. It's important, however, to be careful not to project that on other people. Just because RisingTree is male, and having opposing views on the topic doesn't mean he feels the same way as this other male in your life.

The thing I got out of the comments - If a marriage doesn't work out, without sugarcoating it - doesn't that technically mean it failed to survive?

my use of the term ' damaged goods' and 'failure' was thinly veiled sarcasm.

I take offense that you infer that i may be projecting my 'pain' on to other people. Actually i am responding to a thread -it's ok for married people to respond but not the divorcee, is that it? I have said all along that i hope that they can make the mariage work, i have asked whether or not they could go to counselling. Instead of reading RT's posts, perhaps you could read my responses and then tell me what exactly you disagree with.

RT seems to be of the opinion that i have a rather defeatest attitude to marriage, I can tell you that nothing could be further from the truth. You know, everytime i come in to the Marriage Forum i have someone misinterpret the intent of my posts. On this occassion i was directed to this thread by someone who 'thought' that i may be able to offer support to the person who initiated it.
Perhaps i should reconsider my places of 'acceptable' posting at CF...

 

[Norah]

I take offense that you infer that i may be projecting my 'pain' on to other people. Actually i am responding to a thread -it's ok for married people to respond but not the divorcee, is that it?

Again, you're putting words in other people's mouths. I'm really sorry you were offended - that was never my intent at all, and I didn't mean anything malicious by it. When you suggested that RisingTree meant something other than what he actually said, you then related it to another man who had made a hurtful comment to you. That's the projection I meant - taking a comment from one situation and forcing it on another person when that wasn't the case.

I was pointing out that you had twisted RisingTree's words around, since he was accused of something that he never said in this post. The same thing is happening to me now - who here said or even implied that it's not ok for you to reply since you are divorced? Nobody. I guess I could take offense that you are so quick to judge my motives, but I don't. I was merely trying to point something out that I noticed in your words.

Instead of reading RT's posts, perhaps you could read my responses and then tell me what exactly you disagree with.

Actually, I read both, since both are valid. I already said what I disagreed with - the assumption that anyone here called you a failure. No one has.

RT seems to be of the opinion that i have a rather defeatest attitude to marriage, I can tell you that nothing could be further from the truth. You know, everytime i come in to the Marriage Forum i have someone misinterpret the intent of my posts. On this occassion i was directed to this thread by someone who 'thought' that i may be able to offer support to the person who initiated it.

Ok, here's the thing. Words are put into others' mouths that they did not say. It SEEMS to me (my impression only, subject to being wrong, of course) that the misjudging was actually the other way around. No one accused you of anything, they simply disagreed. I offered a disagreeing opinion, and suddenly what I was "really saying" was that because you're divorced, your opinions aren't welcome here. I never said that, you did.

Perhaps i should reconsider my places of 'acceptable' posting at CF...

Wondering if this is also thinly veiled sarcasm also.

It really was never my intention to offend. I'm not accusing, but neither am I going to sugarcoat my words. Just offering my honest observations.

 

[Norah]

Faeriemom - you must be hurting so much right now. I hope and pray that you will continue to trust God in this situation, for the sake of your marriage and your kids.

I echo the following words and so hope they're true...

I cried when I read that he told you he loved you- I hope you make very certain that he knows divorce is NOT what you really want, that you did what you did in an effort to somehow shake things up and improve your marriage. My feeling is that this man loves you very deeply and is probably stunned as well as hurt at the steps you felt you had to take. Obviously it is hard (for whatever reason) for him to express himself in this area but at least you know he does love you and that you still love him. Our God is a miracle worker-and I believe He is going to demonstrate that to you and your husband in an awesome way.

Take good care of you and your kids right now...

 

[ukok]

Again, you're putting words in other people's mouths. I'm really sorry you were offended - that was never my intent at all, and I didn't mean anything malicious by it. When you suggested that RisingTree meant something other than what he actually said, you then related it to another man who had made a hurtful comment to you. That's the projection I meant - taking a comment from one situation and forcing it on another person when that wasn't the case.

I was pointing out that you had twisted RisingTree's words around, since he was accused of something that he never said in this post. The same thing is happening to me now - who here said or even implied that it's not ok for you to reply since you are divorced? Nobody. I guess I could take offense that you are so quick to judge my motives, but I don't. I was merely trying to point something out that I noticed in your words.


Actually, I read both, since both are valid. I already said what I disagreed with - the assumption that anyone here called you a failure. No one has.


Ok, here's the thing. Words are put into others' mouths that they did not say. It SEEMS to me (my impression only, subject to being wrong, of course) that the misjudging was actually the other way around. No one accused you of anything, they simply disagreed. I offered a disagreeing opinion, and suddenly what I was "really saying" was that because you're divorced, your opinions aren't welcome here. I never said that, you did.


Wondering if this is also thinly veiled sarcasm also.

It really was never my intention to offend. I'm not accusing, but neither am I going to sugarcoat my words. Just offering my honest observations.

hmm...ok, i think you have made your point perfectly clear...though of course, precisely why you feel the need to pull this thread off into a direction whereby it is necessary for you to 'accuse' me ( sorry if that's too strong a word) of giving misinformation due to my being 'hurt' waaaaaaay back. I was unaware that the only respondants of the thread were to be well adjusted, happily married, never hurt, completely unaffected people...but you do realise that cancels out 99% of CF, right?

faeriemom,

i have no problem with continuing any conversations with you outside the arena of the marriage Ministry Forum. you should be well aware by now, that i only ever sought to offer my support to you. I feel that to continue here would detract from your original intention to post...in other words, this is becoming more about me, than it is about you...and that's just dumb. God Bless You.

 

[Norah]

I was unaware that the only respondants of the thread were to be well adjusted, happily married, never hurt, completely unaffected people...

again, you're putting words in someone else's...



never mind. Pointing out something I disagreed with here was more trouble than it was worth in this particular post, I guess, since it only served to offend you. My sincere apologies. You're right that this is about faeriemom anyway. Take care.

 

[ej]

Wow,


I'm amazed that people could perceive anything but love and concern in ANY of the above posts, even though they come from different points of view.
How about we lose the 'debates' in sensitive threads like this, and concentrate on supporting our friends?

 

[mollyj]

www.restorem.org Check it out. You will understand why. You seem sensitive to God's way and you should be able to relate to the pain and restoration that is advocated on this website. This website's philosophy has changed my life.


Make sure hubby knows that you DO NOT want separation, but felt it was necessary. Tell him in no uncertain terms that you want this marriage to work, you love him, and are willing to do what it takes. Let him know that you need to see his love too and that is the reason you gave him papers. You may be separated, but do give him a glimmer of hope.
www.marriagebuilders.com has great principles too. You may be in Plan B. Have you Plan A'd?

 

[Risen Tree]

Norah, thank you, I could not have said that any better.

Remember, all, divorce hurts. Divorce is painful. Pain will abound when we are opening some fresh wounds and some old wounds over this traumatic issue.

 

[ceres]

www.restorem.org Check it out. You will understand why. You seem sensitive to God's way and you should be able to relate to the pain and restoration that is advocated on this website. This website's philosophy has changed my life.


Make sure hubby knows that you DO NOT want separation, but felt it was necessary. Tell him in no uncertain terms that you want this marriage to work, you love him, and are willing to do what it takes. Let him know that you need to see his love too and that is the reason you gave him papers. You may be separated, but do give him a glimmer of hope.
www.marriagebuilders.com has great principles too. You may be in Plan B. Have you Plan A'd?

These are excellent websites, I agree.

However I am pretty sure the plan A and plan B is for if there is an extramarital affair... and there have been no indications of that unless i missed it somehow....

The thing is, if he is a "unmovable"/phlegmatic guy, he will not understand how being really nice to him one day, and then you leaving the next day makes any sense. He will be just really confused. He most likely needs it to have it laid out straight in front of him kind of like this: "This is what I need. This is how I need it. Can you do that, and if so, this is how long you have to actually do it." There needs also to be a counselor involved to help facillitate communication and peace.

 

[mollyj]

Plan A and B (from Marriage Builders) are geared towards marriages with infidelity, however Harley does state that the tools are useful in other sits.

I personally prefer the methods from Restore Ministries (www.restorem.org) as the Bible is their guidebook, not anyone's theory, idea, or philosophy. Their answer is ALWAYS to go to scripture for an answer. The answers in the Bible are radical, definitely not something you hear from your friends, family, and usually not even at churches. But they are from God. His methods WILL work if we work them. And he did invent this little idea of marriage in the first place!!

 

[faeriemom]

Hi guys! I didn't mean to start a fight. But to be honest with you, the only thing keeping me going is the fact that maybe God wants it this way. Maybe God only intended us to be together a short time , make 2 children, then for me to continue on with my journey. My husband and I started going to church because of ME. Because I was growing. I wanted to go. When we met we were both Pagans. He still is, I am not. I feel I have outgrown him in so many ways. Sometimes I feel as if He is holding me back. He never wanted to dedicate our daughter to the Lord at Church, I did. I planned it because he didn't give me a good reason either way, He just said, "I don't know". I really don't feel as if I have failed, I feel like HE failed to live up to the standards that God has set for a Husband to be. He was never the decision maker, he was never the spiritual leader, he was never what he should've been save for all the lies he told in the beginning just to "HOOK" me. He could've moved to his dad's which is a mile away to be closer to us if he wanted to make this work, but he moved 45 minutes away to his mom's so he could be closer to work. He hasn't brought a flower, asked me out, done anything to show me he wants me. I have been telling him for years...I am a good woman, I am a good mother, I run my own business from home sewing cloth diapers so we could have groceries, I was always a good wife, making sure he was fed, the house was clean, he was happy and satisfied. I gave, gave, and gave. He still doesn't give. Today I went and got my hair trimmed and fixed. He came and watched the kids a while so I could. It's really funny how he spends more time with the kids now than when he actually lived here.
It was hard, but I cleaned his closet out today after he left. Each day that passes I feel more solid that this is really it. I sit here and look over at my 8 month old in her high chair(we just had dinner) and I wonder what in the world could ever keep me away from my family, what I wouldn't do to keep my wife if I was him.
I am so confused by him. I asked him today to tell me the truth. The only thing I can figure is stopping him from trying is either he has a girlfriend or he just doesn't love me anymore. He said it was neither of those. All I know at this point is that He isn't the man I need. I need someone who will grow with me and stand by my side, not behind me, lagging....

Scottie

 

[faeriemom]

I am starting to think after reading some other posts where hubbys were abusive that I am just stupid. Maybe I am expecting too much. Maybe i should shut my mouth, let him sit on his butt all the time and just go on with my life and stay married unhappily. But what about Love? Is Love a drug that we get addicted to and then when we don't get it anymore, we jones for it? Does God want me to call him and say come home...I'm just being selfish? I get so many mixed messages I don't know where to turn or what to do. Should I just sit back and wait? I wonder if I am sinning by telling him to change or leave? Should I stand by him year after year after year as he forgets our anniversaries and ignores us as the kids grow up? Is it enough for him to SAY I love you and go to work and come home go to work and come home? Gosh, I just don't know what to do. Maybe I am just missing him right now and it will pass. I think that now that it all seems so final I am scared. I called him and asked him to spend the night so he could help with the kids tomorrow because I have like 4 dozen diapers to sew. Actually just another doorway I tried to open for him to have an excuse to come here and make an effort. He said, "I have to come into work tomorrow at 12".......Can he possibly be sooo stupid? I said well, nevermind then. he accused me of playing games. I am really not at all...I am just trying to give him opportunities to make an effort for my love. I gave him 100 bucks the other day so he would have money to run on....probably secretly hoping for some flowers or ANYTHING!!!! Nothing. Sometimes I wonder where God is too....
Scottie

 

[Risen Tree]

faeriemom, how much counseling have you sought? Or have you been there and done that?

Also, have you read what ceres and I have been saying about the phlegmatic personality?

Hang in there, OK?