At Crossroads -- Cf's Vision Discussion Thread - Please Vote in Poll Thread

Lisa0315 · Jul 28, 2007

A New Dawn said:
I would ask that you not put words in my mouth. That you are burdened for another is a heavy burden, and I cry that you care enough to be burdened. But, as has been mentioned many times, many have come to Christ under the old hated system, also. How do you judge this to be so much better when I know of oodles more that came under the old system? The fact that you don't have the joy in your heart for the others doesn't lessen the fact that the other system was just as successful. For that reason, my posts are just a suggestion that we try to leave specific personalities out of this. You trying to make me (us) feel guilty cheapens the discussion, and the same if I tried to do the same to you.

I don't think I did that NewDawn. You used the word Spiritual Blackmail when I called to the attention one soul. I think that soul is worthy of bringing into the conversation. It does not lessen or cheapen what occurred before. It simply is another point of view that should be considered. I personally think that using such language as Spiritual Blackmail is a cheap shot, but again, you do what you feel is right. I can only do the same.

Lisa

FriendsFellowship · Jul 28, 2007

Joykins said:
Subscribing.

Referencing Erwin's post, I think we need to flesh out "Option 3." BelindaP is posting a series of one-issue polls in the Wiki/Rules Discussion forum. This would be a useful way to try to figure out how most members here would like CF to be.

Why don't you guys just use the wiki's?

RedTulipMom · Jul 28, 2007

Annabel Lee said:
So, what did I miss?

you missed erwin saying this:

Good question.

One possible solution that has been proposed already is to run 2 sites, one that is open, another that is Christians-only, based on the same membership data.

It's entirely possible. The previous version of CF is very similar, with 2 sections, one open and one close. The aim of the new system was to establish something like that but with members agreeing to do it themselves, but it hasn't worked out over the past month.

The ultimate aim would be to keep the good things of the recent changes such as moderator transparency, and see if we can formalise the wiki usage a bit more in a way that is acceptable (the wiki collaborative process is still the best process to get consensus for rules and guidelines).

There is no question that CF has 2 large groups of membership together, and to be honest, that is fantastic, because not many sites on the Internet are able to bring these 2 groups of people together into a place for discussion.

It is possible that Option 1 and Option 2 can be combined together into a middle ground of Option 3 since this is what the poll is really showing us (and I had hoped that the current CF setup would have been the Option 3, since it has elements of both, but apparently not). So the question is, if that's the answer (and I'm not saying it is at this stage), what would Option 3 look like?

It's a question that's does not have an easy answer.

RedTulipMom · Jul 28, 2007

BelindaP said:
So, are you all going to keep ignoring Erwin's post?

thats what i was wondering? he posted pages ago..and most people are just blabbering on and on and not acknowledging his post. seems some people just like to hear themselves talk..lol

Lisa0315 · Jul 28, 2007

RedTulipMoon said:
you missed erwin saying this:

Good question.

One possible solution that has been proposed already is to run 2 sites, one that is open, another that is Christians-only, based on the same membership data.

It's entirely possible. The previous version of CF is very similar, with 2 sections, one open and one close. The aim of the new system was to establish something like that but with members agreeing to do it themselves, but it hasn't worked out over the past month.

The ultimate aim would be to keep the good things of the recent changes such as moderator transparency, and see if we can formalise the wiki usage a bit more in a way that is acceptable (the wiki collaborative process is still the best process to get consensus for rules and guidelines).

There is no question that CF has 2 large groups of membership together, and to be honest, that is fantastic, because not many sites on the Internet are able to bring these 2 groups of people together into a place for discussion.

It is possible that Option 1 and Option 2 can be combined together into a middle ground of Option 3 since this is what the poll is really showing us (and I had hoped that the current CF setup would have been the Option 3, since it has elements of both, but apparently not). So the question is, if that's the answer (and I'm not saying it is at this stage), what would Option 3 look like?

It's a question that's does not have an easy answer.

I saw it. I do not want a split CF.

An option 3, I would consider...

Lisa

intricatic · Jul 28, 2007

eastcoast_bsc said:
Heres a hobbitt treat for you
http://youtube.com/watch?v=bLkOE4XDBis

Here's one for you: Link

My mom taught that to me on the guitar like a bajillion years ago.

< / off topic >

D'Ann · Jul 28, 2007

Godschosengirl said:
well, not only this but i think as a Christian, when someone comes to you with a crisis of faith, etc. the Holy Spirit sets off all kinds of alarms in your spirit to help that person or pray for them. I know before i was a believer i didnt have that alarm system installed..

I agree.

Erwin said:
Good question.

One possible solution that has been proposed already is to run 2 sites, one that is open, another that is Christians-only, based on the same membership data.

It's entirely possible. The previous version of CF is very similar, with 2 sections, one open and one close. The aim of the new system was to establish something like that but with members agreeing to do it themselves, but it hasn't worked out over the past month.

The ultimate aim would be to keep the good things of the recent changes such as moderator transparency, and see if we can formalise the wiki usage a bit more in a way that is acceptable (the wiki collaborative process is still the best process to get consensus for rules and guidelines).

There is no question that CF has 2 large groups of membership together, and to be honest, that is fantastic, because not many sites on the Internet are able to bring these 2 groups of people together into a place for discussion.

It is possible that Option 1 and Option 2 can be combined together into a middle ground of Option 3 since this is what the poll is really showing us (and I had hoped that the current CF setup would have been the Option 3, since it has elements of both, but apparently not). So the question is, if that's the answer (and I'm not saying it is at this stage), what would Option 3 look like?

It's a question that's does not have an easy answer.

Nope... there is no easy answer. I really would like the wiki formula to go away in my personal opinion... but at the same time, maybe with guidelines and instructions and some kind of structure, maybe something good can come from them. But at the same time, there will always be the problem that the minority will not be heard. Truth is, I need to think on this question. Thanks for asking it.

frumanchu said:
Again, this points to a flaw in the way Erwin presented the scenarios. I don't think anyone here is advocating going back to exactly the way things were before the latest reforms. There clearly needs to be more interaction between believers and non-believers in an environment that is conducive to ministry. The problem is that while that is accomplished in some measure by the reforms, it is done so at the expense of too many other things. I believe we can accomplish this noble goal and still do it by righteous means.

Exactly.

Stormy said:
...snippet....
I have been in apologetics long enough to see several Christians turn away from God. Faith can not always with-stand the constant hits from the logical atheist. And I am talking about Christians of strong faith. Two of them were moderators when I first came here. These are people who have been Christians for years and now they are not.

So maybe we will win a soul.. but how many will we lose? Not everyone can endure the rigors of apologetics. Not everyone should have too.

I know atleast 4 people who were deconverted due to debating in NCR. They need our prayers. Even Jesus acknowledges in the Scriptures that lambs do get lost and need to be found...

I will pray for the soul that is on the borderline. Let us all share this burden with you through prayers.

A New Dawn said:
I think your premise is flawed in that nobody ever kept statistics on how many conversions vs. how many deconverstions there were because there is no accurate way to collect that data. The deconversions might have been noisy, and therefore obvious, while the conversions were private, joyous moments.

I personally received a few PMs from members who converted on CF asking for icon changes that probably didn't go into GA, etc., and make a big noise about it, so all that needs to be taken into consideration.

What a joyous moment when I received some pms requesting their non-Christian icon to be changed to a Christian icon. That made this ministry worth it.

By the way, there is a website that does keep track of deconversions that the atheists on that particular board helped to deconvert. I do have evidence. I have the list. And I daily pray for those atheists as well as each person on that list who was misled away from Christ by non-Christians who purposely did this.

Godschosengirl said:
so, how do we get those who "faith was weak to begin with" from entering NCR or those other debate areas? are we gonna police the area making sure new belivers dont enter?

All you have to do is gain access to the old reports. search NCR and see that 99.9% of those reported were for promoting of other religions. its there in black and white. this isnt opinion-it is fact backed up by records.

I worked the NCR forum and I've seen those reports too. It's heart breaking.

Lisa0315 said:
I have said that there is a soul hanging in the balance right now. There is one person who has contributed greatly to New CF. I have posted a link. This person is an atheist who is now sporting a title that says, "I was a stranger and you took me in", and a signature that speaks of Christianity going into the darkest and neediest places. The seed has been planted because this person has been working side by side with Christians. When I told of this before, it was stated that there were more important things than "just" one soul. That is what I weep over.

Lisa

Lisa, all souls are equally important. I pray that whatever changes occur... that there will always be a place for Christians and non-Christians to work together. This soul is in my prayers and now she/he is my burden too as well as yours. HUGS Thank you for caring.

A New Dawn said:
Your link went to a wiki, so everyone is still unaware of what you are talking about. Unfortunately, the way you are presenting this would be considered spiritual blackmail. Many of us have seen conversions under the old CF. Many of us are not for a return to the old CF, but for a hybrid of what we had and some of the changes that have been made recently. That one soul is finding it's way to God is joyous, but that should not be the deciding factor for how the site is ultimately run.

But I am joyous that someone is finding their way to Christ!

Amen.

Godschosengirl said:
what i dont think many understand is that weeping was a weekly thing when i was on staff (as with many other staffers) before the changes. that is why so many Christians are so emotional over these things. let me tell you a few stories...

before 7/7/7 staffers would have a prayer chain on IM. there were so many staffers trying to get into one IM conversation to pray together for members that MSN would "kick" people off cause there were so many trying to get in that prayer IM conversation! lol... most "prereforms" staff LOVE and CARE about ever single soul here on CF-Christian or not.

One of the posters I speak with the most via PM is a 20 year old unsaved lesbian. We spoke almost every day via pm. she was struggling with life and her live-in partner and just needed someone to talk to. she is someone here that i consider a friend.

the reason i tell you this is to drive this point home--just because we dont want non-Christians as staffers does not mean we dont want to "associate" with unbelievers and I am getting a little tired of that arguement myself. half of the old CF staff didnt even mod in the Christian only areas. They hang out on a daily basis with non-believers in the open areas.

I miss the prayer group on IM.

meh said:
Lisa, I apologize for before. Aside from being sick and tired of internet drama I am sick and tired in real life and shouldn't post when I have a fever. It makes me mouthy and grouchy. I should have made my point more charitably and not aimed at you in particular. I sincerely apologize. I won't post again until I can function like a normal human being.

Hi meh!!!!

Lisa0315 · Jul 28, 2007

And another thing...About splitting CF...

It sounds like Solomon trying to find out who the real "mother" is here on CF. Who loves CF more? Those who would split the site, or those who will work and work trying to keep it together despite the antagonism and insulting.

Lisa

dignitized · Jul 28, 2007

I'm sad that we even are having this poll. We will solve NOTHING if we keep looking back on the "good ol' days" - t he good ol days that never were. Do we really want to bring back starchamber? To bring back seekrit reports and all the gossip and nastiness that happened in the staff forums? Do we really want to reconstitute the ghetto system and marginalize people who don't fit into our neat little boxes? Lets be grown up about this! If someone says something wrong, combat error with truth. Don't attempt to merely silence them. It only gives credence to their arguments.

Erwin - the vision is YOURS. You know what it is and no one but YOU should articulate it. Say what it is and work with us to see that the right thing is done. Once things are settled - 6 months or so - things will calm down again and the system will by and large work. You will have your trouble makers - those who will kvetch about wikianity and other such foolishness. Let them. They only show how limited their faith and their love is.

God did not call us to live in seclusion apart from the world - he called us to stand as a beacon in the hill in the midst of the world. To live and be an example by our living of what Christianity really is.

I propose here and now - that in all discussion, wiki and other policy decisions that erwin have 51% vote to exercise where and how he deems. If you see a wiki going in a direction you do not like - cast your 51% vote and that's it.

I also propose that you NOT read PMs any more. If people want to make petition to you, then they should do so in a special PUBLIC forum just for that. People should not be able to attack and attempt to intimidate you into decisions you do not wish to make.

Finally - I fully back your having sole and final say on who is or who is not an admin here. I agree that people should have the right to make a case against a particular choice - but they should do so in public and own their accusations.

CF does NOT need to be either 1 or 2 - It can be both - it can be neither. But you Erwin are the visionary. You are the guide in this. We can either follow you where you lead, or we can leave.

dignitized · Jul 28, 2007

I'm sad that we even are having this poll. We will solve NOTHING if we keep looking back on the "good ol' days" - t he good ol days that never were. Do we really want to bring back starchamber? To bring back seekrit reports and all the gossip and nastiness that happened in the staff forums? Do we really want to reconstitute the ghetto system and marginalize people who don't fit into our neat little boxes? Lets be grown up about this! If someone says something wrong, combat error with truth. Don't attempt to merely silence them. It only gives credence to their arguments.

Erwin - the vision is YOURS. You know what it is and no one but YOU should articulate it. Say what it is and work with us to see that the right thing is done. Once things are settled - 6 months or so - things will calm down again and the system will by and large work. You will have your trouble makers - those who will kvetch about wikianity and other such foolishness. Let them. They only show how limited their faith and their love is.

God did not call us to live in seclusion apart from the world - he called us to stand as a beacon in the hill in the midst of the world. To live and be an example by our living of what Christianity really is.

I propose here and now - that in all discussion, wiki and other policy decisions that erwin have 51% vote to exercise where and how he deems. If you see a wiki going in a direction you do not like - cast your 51% vote and that's it.

I also propose that you NOT read PMs any more. If people want to make petition to you, then they should do so in a special PUBLIC forum just for that. People should not be able to attack and attempt to intimidate you into decisions you do not wish to make.

Finally - I fully back your having sole and final say on who is or who is not an admin here. I agree that people should have the right to make a case against a particular choice - but they should do so in public and own their accusations.

CF does NOT need to be either 1 or 2 - It can be both - it can be neither. But you Erwin are the visionary. You are the guide in this. We can either follow you where you lead, or we can leave.

MrsSeptemberPenguin · Jul 28, 2007

I can't really choose between the dynamics placed here. I think it's important to have some areas that are for Christians only. There are so many forums out there that non-christians can freely go to but when it comes to Christians there are way fewer places where we can go to get Christian advice. I also think it is important to have more of CF available to non-christians though so that it can be used as a ministry tool. Isn't there a way that there can be a balance between the two?

tall73 · Jul 28, 2007

I apologize, I have not read this whole thing. I generally try to before posting, but I really only want to know if there is any point in finishing our rules wiki in my denominational sub-forum.

We were just getting things really going.

Has any clarification been given about whether congregational areas will still have some self-direction?

CaDan · Jul 28, 2007

tall73 said:
I apologize, I have not read this whole thing. I generally try to before posting, but I really only want to know if there is any point in finishing our rules wiki in my denominational sub-forum.

We were just getting things really going.

Has any clarification been given about whether congregational areas will still have some self-direction?

Keep working.

FreeinChrist · Jul 28, 2007

Erwin said:
It is possible that Option 1 and Option 2 can be combined together into a middle ground of Option 3 since this is what the poll is really showing us (and I had hoped that the current CF setup would have been the Option 3, since it has elements of both, but apparently not). So the question is, if that's the answer (and I'm not saying it is at this stage), what would Option 3 look like?

It's a question that's does not have an easy answer.

What would Option 3 look like? IMHO:

1. Allow nonChristians to post everywhere but limit debate in the congregational forums to members of that forum only.

2. Define orthodox Christianity as Trintiarian. Leave the Theology section as it is now.

3. I like how the overall site rules are shaping up now BUT in some ways the rule book is too thick. I don't know exactly what to suggest other than some of the moderation protocals need to be guidelines rather than hard and fast rules (i.e. when to rfe vs. soft delete )

4. Bring back warnings/infractions. I didn't like warnings/infractions BUT some folks are just problematic and will not behave and will continue to flame and harrass and chose to test the boundaries and overstep them. Now they just misbehave until banned.

5. Limit participation in the report threads to staff/ the reported member and the reporter. I don't mind members reading the report threads, and have even appreciated input from members BUT some report threads have been flame fests so that there is even discussion in wiki about adding report buttons to posts in the report threads so that we would have to work reports on reports. Yikes!!

If members are allowed to comment, then remove the anonymity. I really have an issue that member comments are anonymous! For true transparency, member names should be seen. There is concern about "protecting members" from retaliation - but staff are members too and are only volunteers, and apparently are fair game for retaliation.

6. Voting for mods seemed a good idea, but it can turn into a popularity contest and the process has turned into a flame fest in a few cases. And there are no controls as to WHO is voting. How many votes are duplicated thanks to sock puppets? Or folks who just joined a particular forum? And I have already seen the threats/harrassment/flames leveled at those who are mods now in report threads because they disagree with how a mod sees things in a report.

And it scares me to think that the entire staff is up for reelection at the same time around Christmas (for January). What chaos could occur!
For now, I would stick with the process as it was - mod apps filled out and voted on by staff, with a certain approval rating to be put on staff.

7. NonChristians can be mods as there is a place for them. However, Theology and Ecumencial areas need orthodox Christians as staff.

8. Leave CR is open for to all to view. However, there are situations that need confidentiality and a private space is need for that.

Erwin · Jul 28, 2007

tall73 said:
I apologize, I have not read this whole thing. I generally try to before posting, but I really only want to know if there is any point in finishing our rules wiki in my denominational sub-forum.

We were just getting things really going.

Has any clarification been given about whether congregational areas will still have some self-direction?

None of that would change - this discussion is more about the name and the vision.

TheMatmanReturns · Jul 28, 2007

squirrelz_15 said:
I can't really choose between the dynamics placed here. I think it's important to have some areas that are for Christians only. There are so many forums out there that non-christians can freely go to but when it comes to Christians there are way fewer places where we can go to get Christian advice. I also think it is important to have more of CF available to non-christians though so that it can be used as a ministry tool. Isn't there a way that there can be a balance between the two?

But at the end of the day, how do you know if someone is truly a Christian? I have a Christian icon, but does this necessarily mean that I am telling the truth?

TheMatmanReturns · Jul 28, 2007

TheMatmanReturns said:
But at the end of the day, how do you know if someone is truly a Christian? I have a Christian icon, but does this necessarily mean that I am telling the truth?

The fact is, if one wanted to figure a way to get into the Christian-only forum, one could.

RedTulipMom · Jul 28, 2007

Lisa0315 said:
I saw it. I do not want a split CF.

An option 3, I would consider...

Lisa

same here

Psalms34 · Jul 28, 2007

I knew it I knew it I knew it *hangs head in complete sadness*
So it comes down to an open poll. *smells takeover by Atheists, Witches, Satanists*

Maranatha! (before saying that is outlawed at... CF? or FSF whatever)

TasManOfGod · Jul 28, 2007

Erwin -can you give guarentees that members wont be targeted because they believe the Bible differently to a few staff

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