At Crossroads -- Cf's Vision Discussion Thread (2) - Please Vote in Poll Thread

brachah said:

outreach is a joke when athiests are outreaching christians now on cf!!! i really dont know what to say. too funny.

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I don't really understand what you're saying here.

Perhaps if you spelled properly (if spelling is difficult for you, we here at CF have a handy spell-check function), used decent punctuation, etc., your posts would be easier to understand.

Is there any way you could rephrase your post in a way that is understandable?

Dannager said:

I don't really understand what you're saying here.

Perhaps if you spelled properly (if spelling is difficult for you, we here at CF have a handy spell-check function), used decent punctuation, etc., your posts would be easier to understand.

Is there any way you could rephrase your post in a way that is understandable?

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I think perhaps that it is being pointed out that atheists and others have valid points to make about love which many christians have grown to inore by getting bogged down in religion and forgetting that God and Jesus are about love for ALL men, not about setting up cliques and saying 'I'm all right Jack' ....

the prospect of christians taking away the inpout from others is thus rather amusing because that is exectly what most christians need, and the saints pointed out the precious nature of TRIAL of one's faith, which one doesn't get by curling up in a corner ...

1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

The hypoctisy of modern siner christians is truly appalling and unloving , and some outside realise that it ain't what Jesus is about, cos' it ain't loving to be a hypocrite , or to run away from those trying to point out what is wrong with what one believes....

the division of christianity is a logical proof of how far it is from the truth of God , and it is rather obvious to people outside christianity ... somehow people within it are blind to the religion losing sight of the God of love... so it is more than ironic that this move by sinners is trying to shut people out who actually care enough to bear witness here...

KomissarSteve said:

I know, that really is the bottom line in all of this; the non-Christians aren't obstructing the Christians here from any unity that they don't already have.

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I think it's very interesting this sentiment. Because it's clearly defiance in the face of facts. There are points of unity that you won't get with some Christians by unifying with non-Christians.

Y'see, we've already tried some of these options in the US. Presbyterians have open communion; we have essentially open baptism; we accept people of other faiths worshipping and receiving the sacraments openly with us, without joining with our churches.

But there's a line many of us Preby's won't cross any more. That's a line of full religious participation with non-Christians or even simply culturally-associated Christians.

We've actually crossed this line a few times in our history -- starting with the Halfway Covenant, through Universalism and Unitarianism (both were strong movements in Reformed churches in the US), and it went on to today in the liberal mainstream. Some of our liberal brothers continue to work those failures in as precedent for making wider and wider invitations today. But conservative Presbyterians recognize it as capitulation.

The Gospel gets lost. It's happened reliably.

If the powers that be want to do that, they can. But it's not Christian unity. And don't believe you're uniting Christians thereby. It's very unlikely you'll attract more conservative Presbyterians, and you'll lose many of us. Even those like me would begin treating this as the hard core human marketplace, not a place for new Christians.

And I've an obvious firsthand reason why this is the case, too. Christians require communion with one another. They require the ability to identify other people they can trust to have the same kind of faith as they do (cf. 1 John). The goal of Christian faith is not assimilating, comprehending, and unifying with all other religious views. It's also not separating, isolating, and building a fortress secure from all other religious views. But it depends on both to accomplish it's true goal.

Christians require communion with one another. They require the ability to identify other people they can trust to have the same kind of faith as they do (cf. 1 John). The goal of Christian faith is not assimilating, comprehending, and unifying with all other religious views. It's also not separating, isolating, and building a fortress secure from all other religious views. But it depends on both to accomplish it's true goal.

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Rather ,instead, read in scripture what Jesus set as the goals of christianity , and weep for how far yours are from his...for there is much woe to come from your views ... and no clear reason whatever not to folow Jesus' way instead ...

stranger said:

Rather ,instead, read in scripture what Jesus set as the goals of christianity , and weep for how far yours are from his...for there is much woe to come from your views ... and no clear reason whatever not to folow Jesus' way instead ...

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Pitting Christ against the disciple Jesus loved doesn't make a great argument for me.

But I do appreciate the fact that you're willing to tar those who think differently from you with attacks of "not being like Jesus". I'll take that into account. Maybe Erwin's "uniting all Christians" is utterly impossible. And maybe conservatives are not the ones making it impossible.

I consider that I'm acting consistently with Jesus' goals. I have a ministry to non-Christians as well as to Christians. I love the brothers, and I reach out to others. My church history is strewn with contradicting fortress Christians and being publicly opposed in ministry because of it.

I'm no stranger to either side.

And there is a clear reason regarding opening every weak Christian young in the faith to every sway of argument.

"My faith is so weak that it can't withstand a conversation with an atheist"

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LOLOL ...Now that truly is a hilarious quote which highlights this absurd Xenophobic poll by christians ... there is always a deep hiden truth behind humour ... one few will face, so it is laughed off ...

Denominational christians live in fear, not love of all men like Jesus, fear that the truth of their division might leak out and show clearly to all that they do not know the truth of God [promised them supposedly by Jesus -John 16:13] , truth which obviously would unite all christians in ONE truth of God , if only they only had it !! ...

stranger said:

LOLOL ...Now that truly is a hilarious quote which highlights this absurd Xenophobic poll by christians ... there is always a deep hideen truth behind humour ...

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Yes, a lot of my time here has been spent trying to understand why this underlying fear exists. Fear of change, fear of challenge, fear of the unknown, fear of thought. Anything that could cause mental discomfort is avoided, even if avoiding it is not intellectually honest.

KomissarSteve said:

For what purpose besides outreach would the body of Christ need these forums?

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Inreach? (aka communion) Upreach? (aka worship) Downreach? (aka education) My church is built around all four of these concepts.

Dannager said:

Yes, a lot of my time here has been spent trying to understand why this underlying fear exists. Fear of change, fear of challenge, fear of the unknown, fear of thought. Anything that could cause mental discomfort is avoided, even if avoiding it is not intellectually honest.

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It's not fear. It's a question of what the place is actually accomplishing.

If you stress outreach more, you'll find you're dealing with communion with young Christians less. And there's precious little in the way of a central forum for young Christians to hear from many, many different Christian viewpoints on a fairly irenic level.

In fact I've never seen another one.

I don't consider debates in this format to be very effective for converting atheists, either. It's fine with me if you want to talk with atheists. But I find more often it's just an attempt for Christians to develop arguments that're convincing to themselves, and assure themselves that "at least those atheists around me know [x]" where [x] is some fact significant to their point of view.

Frankly my friends are pleasant, moral people and they have reasons for what they think. Most have been exposed to "bomb-dropping" Christians and step back for a bit while trying to figure me out. But the debate doesn't seem to have advanced much since 1800 years ago with Celsus.

heymikey80 said:

Inreach? (aka communion) Upreach? (aka worship) Downreach? (aka education) My church is built around all four of these concepts.

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Yes, those are pretty excellent things for a church to focus on.

Of course, CF isn't a church. Erwin has stated that it was not designed to be or envisioned as a church. That's not to say these things can't take place here, but our opportunity for outreach here far outstrips the opportunity for outreach we'd have in our daily lives and individual churches.

Dannager said:

Yes, a lot of my time here has been spent trying to understand why this underlying fear exists. Fear of change, fear of challenge, fear of the unknown, fear of thought. Anything that could cause mental discomfort is avoided, even if avoiding it is not intellectually honest.

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Mister wrong ! Because people are content with something that does not mean they fear anything. With God we fear nothing. We use our intellect to realize that some matters do not require a change and that is all...

Sun

Dannager said:

Yes, a lot of my time here has been spent trying to understand why this underlying fear exists. Fear of change, fear of challenge, fear of the unknown, fear of thought. Anything that could cause mental discomfort is avoided, even if avoiding it is not intellectually honest.

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Originally Posted by stranger

LOLOL ...Now that truly is a hilarious quote which highlights this absurd Xenophobic poll by christians ... there is always a deep hideen truth behind humour ...

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The ironies run deep in the paradox of human belief, and none deeper than christian hypocrisy and xenophobia in those most committed to pagan tradition in divided mainline christianity [originating in Rome's takeover bid for the brand name 'christianity' from Jerusalem [a move with no scriptural authority from God whatsoever]

The point of course is that Jesus sent his real followers out to spread the good news of the christ [messiah, new king of Israel] amongst the gentiles where the lost House of Israel's descendants could be found and re-united under the messiah with the Jews [House of Judah]... all this, recorded in scripture, has been lost in modern christianity, which des not even know that jesus came only for the lost house of Israel, does not even know who the House of Israel were ! :-

Matthew 15:24 But he [Jesus] answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

and obviously sent all his disciples out on this very quest :-

Matthew 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Now Jesus was well known for talking endlessly with sinners and unbelievers.... he at least knew that everyone is an unbeliever until they are GIVEN faith by God ... so there is no reason not to talk with unbelievers and Jesus indeed insisted on it in his true followers... which says a lot about the xenophobic bunch who call themselves christians on this site, and hddle in various corners in extreme fear that someone might come in and dare to speak the truuth they so much dread to know [but know deep in their hearts, beneath their denial]... the result is that they huddle closer together [and call it socialising, or communion] and listen less and less to anything outside their particular set of words... but there are hundreds of thousands of the sets of words, 'creeds', all differenmt , but just one truth of God.... that is what they fear then, because they know most of christianity must be false, but who can tell which creed is false when none agree with what the prophets of God say in scripture, ket alone what the saints wrote...

What a farce really, mankind has made out of religion... and yet the scripture remains a witness against the farce , unheeded by all but a very few who love the truth it holds about love for all men being the most powerul thing on the planet... xenophobia is a poor substitute for love , even f if does drive people into close social groupings where everyone smiles thinly at each other in agrreeeing each is right, 'absolutely' ... LOLOL?

Sadly it doesn't provide a solution though .... God has to let it all fall apart before men will see what fools we are not to believe in His words , not to believe in love for all men ... love our neighbours, be they friend or enemy , just because it is the best way to be, interact and learn about the truth about love, not curl up in pagan traditions handed down from pagan Rome's corruption of the truth ... you havve to say though that Rome did what it set out to do, control what people believe so that the masters could live off the fat of the land.... but it ain't the equality and love that Jesus preached ...

the final irony is that all people admire love deep in their hearts, it is only the world that robspeople of the massive blessings of being loving to each othre, to all men... but of course that is what Jesus commanded, love all men, even your enemies, it just falls on deaf ears of most chrsitias these days... they do not love 'outsiders' [because they know they have made themselves outsiders by their unlovingness ... perhaps it is too painful a truth to be funny though, it is certainly all-too-human...

heymikey80 said:

Inreach? (aka communion) Upreach? (aka worship) Downreach? (aka education) My church is built around all four of these concepts.

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Given the number of Christians from either end of the political spectrum who talk to each other on CF, you could also add Leftreach and Rightreach...

Dannager said:

Yes, those are pretty excellent things for a church to focus on.

Of course, CF isn't a church. Erwin has stated that it was not designed to be or envisioned as a church. That's not to say these things can't take place here, but our opportunity for outreach here far outstrips the opportunity for outreach we'd have in our daily lives and individual churches.

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Hm? "as you are going make disciples of the nations ..." You don't think the opportunity for outreach is inestimably greater in the world next door, than in the world of CF? I guess I do. It's more of a struggle to get through people's preconceptions, but I do. I spend hours with kids developing their outreach capabilities and then actually doing outreach. It does work better among friends than in some discussion forum half a world away from reality.

I would point to statistics (check out Barna's old reports or a little book, "The Mind Changers"), that if you don't have a number of Christian friends around you, it's extremely unlikely you'll become a Christian. And if you don't have a group helping you grow deeply, "when the sun rose they were scorched. And since they had no root, they withered away."

Ultimately, if this place is not providing for depth it's not providing for outreach. And if it's not providing for outreach, what is this but a battlefield?

I've always taken Erwin's claim to mean that he's not intent on establishing a new form of church government. But if you consider two or three are gathered here in Christ's name -- you've got a church in my theology's estimate. Debating ecclesiology(!) is one thing. An argument not to do inreach or education is quite another.

MarcusHill said:

Given the number of Christians from either end of the political spectrum who talk to each other on CF, you could also add Leftreach and Rightreach...

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Well you have my agreement here. And as you recognize it's a Cross-pictured approach to ministry. In our experience (and in the experience of our theology's history) Inreach symbolically "draws the lines" that define the Cross, the Church, and thus Christianity as a unified concept and as a People, to the rest of the world.

SunMessenger said:

Mister wrong ! Because people are content with something that does not mean they fear anything. With God we fear nothing. We use our intellect to realize that some matters do not require a change and that is all...

Sun

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If that is true, why were there so many posts that implied or stated outright that atheists were going to take over this site? There were so many dire predictions which did not happen, and every single one of them COULD have happened under old CF. If that is not fear, what was the cause?

Lisa

Lisa0315 said:

If that is true, why were there so many posts that implied or stated outright that atheists were going to take over this site? There were so many dire predictions which did not happen, and every single one of them COULD have happened under old CF. If that is not fear, what was the cause?

Lisa

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This whole mess is not caused by fear. This mess was caused by a hasty decision of the sites owner. Not fear in anyway. I never posted that atheists would take over anything . I posted that there was no need to radically change anything . Instead a calm cleaning up of the old system was needed. You need to ask the ones who were worried about takeovers that question.

Sun

Quite frankly this issue is sickening already. Erwin you made a hasty and unadvised decision. You have had second thoughts. I am glad for those second thoughts . Now lets get on with it.

This is dragging on too long and all it is doing is draining patience and no more. You have lots of information to filter through and it is time to get started . I and others recommended many things in all three threads on this matter.

Time to get it organized and packaged up. I do not mean to offend you but you need more honesty around you and if you had it maybe this mess would have never occurred in the first place. I am praying and you know that....


Sun

You don't think the opportunity for outreach is inestimably greater in the world next door, than in the world of CF? I guess I do. It's more of a struggle to get through people's preconceptions, but I do. I spend hours with kids developing their outreach capabilities and then actually doing outreach. It does work better among friends than in some discussion forum half a world away from reality.

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I think that you missed the evry experienced Paul's' point ... only the NEWS is spraed by word of mouth of the apostles, the CONVERSION to FAITH is solely in God's hands :-

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Thus teaching people to go along with their friends IN BELIEF is simply playing into Satan's hands ... be content to first find out the TRUE gospel of the messiah come to re-unite Israel into ONE nation as a kingdom of priests that is what is WRITTEN in all scripture , then you can begin passing on this news taht almost all christians do not know ...

Israel is chosen by God to be the priesthood of the new covenant, bit they serve te many of all nations after becoming perfected ... they are not chosen to exclude anyone from salvatio, but to minister IN the salvation of the many in the kingdom of God! Rev 7:3-10

Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Ezekiel 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

Ths is why ONLY the House of Judah [Jews] and the lost paganised House of Israel are mentioned in the new covenant of grace [Heb 8:8-12] , God requires but a few as priests in His kingdom, not everyone!!!

Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

NOTE then that few find the way by Jesus' return, in fact he states 144,000 only in Rev 7:3... but the many are saved after this [Rev 7:9-10] , by the service of the few ...in the kingdom come upon earth [whereas for now it rests only in the hearts of the few]

Erwin I do not know if Steve gave you the link to this thread so I am posting it here just in case.

There are ideas here that have been given much thought and prayer. They need to be read by You. I am gong to PM you with this link and I am posting it here also ...

http://www.christianforums.com/t5800270-should-erwin-sell-cf-if-he-has-no-time-to-run-cf-.html

Good luck on all of this brother it is time to get it moving. That is an honest opinion from one who knows...

God Bless...
Sun